I spent lot of time in my life looking at girls then women wishing I was  like them, and noticing all that differences males and females have in manners. Doing things with graceful moves, walking with smaller steps, moving sometimes their fingers saying hi to someone, brushing hairs, crossing legs sitting, walking or standing with one arm close to their body parallel to floor and a relaxed open hand pointing to the floor, to say a few. I noticed often even so called "bad girls"  or "tomboys" have them

My silly question is, did you work on changing manners (I guess it don't come with the hormones)? Did you had some before transitioning (I have not, being quite rudely male in that area). Do you have advices to work on gaining more feminine manners? Or is it something becoming second nature the more one live as a woman?

Just as girls watched women in order to learn the ways of women, so must t-girls watch women too.

I don't think my mannerisms were "feminine" but as a kid, I took a lot of beatings from bullies. In the Story of Lori, I talk about how I learned how to "man up" and learned how to imitate male postures and mannerisms.

Now that I am transitioning, I have had to unlearn those behaviors. Sometimes it is easy. I just relax and be myself. Other times I catch myself doing things like the male greeting head nod. I think my practice is not so much learning how to do things in a feminine manner but more unlearning the male role identifiers I had adopted for so long to fit into a strong hetero community.

At my teen, some friends and adults commented that my body gestures were too feminine, which I had never noticed. I did not know the reason why they thought so. Also, they said I am 'pretty', never saying 'handsome'.

Probably to overcome this, I tried to look more masculine. My walking posture was made and fixed during my mandatory military service at my 20s.

Nowadays some people comment that a few of my body gestures are feminine, but most of them are masculine. For example, just before sitting in the chair, most women wrap their skirt, but I do not. One of my female friends noticed this, and commenting that, despite my feminine body, my body gesures are masculine. Now I try to wrap my skirt when I sit.

I do not grasp how many other gestures I need to change and fix. Eye contacts may be also critical.

One thing I noticed 20 years ago is the close body contacts between women. When I sit in public buses, subway trains or airplanes, women beside me do not avoid body contact with me. Some of them even grasp my hands before asking the street direction.

Another thing funny is that some of young female employees in restaurants, airports and hotels tend to be very unkind and blunt to me, but they immedialy become kind with big smile of relief once they hear my low voice. Enemies of women are women.

Cheers,

barbie~~

I can go back to longer strides when no one is looking.  Then I said to myself that is unwise.
So I do not.  Usually.


Chrissy

I was bullied for being too feminine as a kid in the 60s & 70s.I was apunchbag til 13 when I fought back big style & was generally left alone after winning a few fights. I later found out my nickname was Emily though nobody dared call me that!One day I was in trouble for fighting again when the deputy headmaster called me a yob. A bit later the headmaster called me a nancy Boy. They were both right! Now I'm not feminine enough!

Okay, sure - if you are going to headbut someone, or shake their hand with so much force you break bones in their wrist then, yeah, probably you need to chill out a bit and relax - but apart from that just be yourself.

If you want to imitate someone, then fine - go study and watch and learn - repeat and repeat.. you will be able to ape them - no problem.. but you know, that is not what being a woman is about. Not even close. That is what pretending to be a woman is about.

Passing is the worst stick that anyone going through transition is beaten with - and mostly beaten by themselves. Sure, we have body dysmorphia - so, that means, we don't like how our bodies look and gender dysphoria as we don't like how we are accepted in the world regards our gender - that doesn't mean the answer here is to play act a role - If you transition, you are going to have to live 24/7 in the role you are wanting to transition into - so here is some of the best advice you can ever have - don't sweat it - chill out and be yourself. Love who you are, find you. Look at yourself, watch yourself and learn to love who you are and except that everyone is different. Wear what clothes make you happy, if you want to do makeup then do it, learn to do it or don't do it, but make it your choice. I know women who do no makeup, a little, a lot and variable depending.. Clothes, the same - I live in jeans and T.. I did that before too. I wear a dress occasionally, but it's not a big thing. If it is for you then do it - don't follow what some idiot on the internet says.. including me!

Passing is a misnomer - live and look in a way that makes YOU happy not how you think other's want you to live or look. Passing is the reason a lot of people don't transition and that is sad, because you are beautiful. Go now, look yourself in the eyes and tell yourself that you are beautiful. It's true.

Quote from: Stéphanie.FR on September 10, 2024, 11:18:59 AMMy silly question is, did you work on changing manners (I guess it don't come with the hormones)?

I'm working on some for example rolling my eyes upwards when thinking, holding my head more erected and tilted. I bought a woman posture corrector that I wear at the gym while working out and at home to erect, straighten, and soften my posture, and so on.

QuoteDid you had some before transitioning?

Yes, pointing at something with my index finger flexed and turned upwards, covering my chest when bending my knees and squatting down as I bend over to pick something up, putting my hands on my hips combined with a pelvic tilt, also putting just one hand on my hip and gesturing with the other.

I remember my mother and her sisters (my aunts) correcting me from these gestures when I was younger, these were considered  girly things at home.

QuoteDo you have advices to work on gaining more feminine manners?

I don't have anything more to offer other than what I mentioned. I am new at working at this, and perhaps later on a later date as I learn other feminine manners that didn't come naturally to me I could possibly give some advice.

QuoteOr is it something becoming second nature the more one live as a woman?

The one's I mentioned are second nature as I have them all my life, sometimes I do them in male mode unconsciously, and realizing it later on. 

Quote from: Oldandcreaky on September 10, 2024, 12:45:05 PMJust as girls watched women in order to learn the ways of women, so must t-girls watch women too.

Very very true.

I would add one fine point to it, though. As children, we often watch older children or adults of the same gender and attempt to mirror their behavior.

For some reason, if you encounter a transwoman in public who seems... let's say... ill-suited to blending in despite best efforts ... it's often because they seem to be attempting to mirror the behavior of women much YOUNGER than they are, in clothing, deportment and manners.

So when observing, for certain pay attention to all sorts of women and find things that make sense to you... but pay particular attention to women in your age group.

Oh, and one really specific thing? The "how ya doing" nod that you might have done all your life as a guy? Women do not do those. At all. They speak a greeting, or simply make eye contact and smile, or withhold eye contact on purpose.

Similarly if you are a transmale? Start nodding to everyone you see. Trust me. 😘

I worked on unlearning.  I emulated the guys around me, to my disgust. A lot of the male characteristic mannerisms that guys have, they should unlearn as well. As @Lori Dee stated, it's about relaxing and being myself, not so much learning something 'new'

Quoteyou will be able to ape them - no problem.

Do you think that women are aping each other? I do, although I wouldn't employ such a pejorative verb. Human being sync through behavior. This behavior, of course, varies from family to family, tribe to tribe, and country to country, but synching serves a purpose. Even the rebel elements in the United States, like the Harley folks and goth kids, adhere to a narrow fashion sense.

As far as "no problem," you seem think that the social rules for women are obvious and easily learned. Do you think this? I have a sister who never, not after 65 years, learned them. She has no friends. She has never had friends. She leans heavily on family because we're all she's got. She was a mediocre, unhappy professional in two careers largely because she never mastered womanhood and so she never enjoyed its perks, such as pals and professional success.

QuoteSo when observing, for certain pay attention to all sorts of women and find things that make sense to you... but pay particular attention to women in your age group.

Yep. If you transition at 60, you don't get to dress as if you're 16...unless you want scrutiny and even if you can wear a mini-dress and look great, you will still be judged...and the jury won't be kind.

Quote from: Oldandcreaky on September 11, 2024, 05:58:34 AM.... Yep. If you transition at 60, you don't get to dress as if you're 16...unless you want scrutiny and even if you can wear a mini-dress and look great, you will still be judged...and the jury won't be kind.

I've gotten that "dress your age" response. I'm 64 and dressed so, yes, I'm dressing my age. Better than being undressed. Do I look good? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The point is: I like what I wear so I keep wearing it.  Dressing your age is just another social construct of learned expectations. I may, and do, look at someone and think, "that doesn't suit them" Then again, I also think, "As long as they like it and feel good about themselves."

Dress your age? NO! Dress in what you like.

QuoteDress your age? NO! Dress in what you like.

I don't dress to attract attention. Some do. Many do. However, I dress to stay warm or cool and above all, to be comfortable, thus my favoring cotton. Coincidentally, the majority of my peer group does the same.

Now, of course, I sometimes desire attention and apply my wit to elicit it.

Faith, you say you wear what you like, but why do you like what you like? I've shared that I dress for comfort. Do you feel more feminine in donning what you do? Or is it something else?

Everyone can and should have good manners.  Only us women should have feminine mannerisms.


Chrissy

Everybody walks up the stairs except me. I realized the reason why women in miniskirts should not jump. Even all men use the stairs. I am the oldest in this group. Of course, I only wear a miniskirt.

Am I just unique regardless of gender and feminine manners?



Cheers,

barbie~~

Quote from: Oldandcreaky on September 11, 2024, 09:02:57 AMI don't dress to attract attention. Some do. Many do. However, I dress to stay warm or cool and above all, to be comfortable, thus my favoring cotton. Coincidentally, the majority of my peer group does the same.

Now, of course, I sometimes desire attention and apply my wit to elicit it.

Faith, you say you wear what you like, but why do you like what you like? I've shared that I dress for comfort. Do you feel more feminine in donning what you do? Or is it something else?

I don't know why I like things I wear, I just do. I've always had a good sense of what compliments the wearer dating back years. I picked out my wife's outfits for her a lot. She didn't always go along with it because she has her own thoughts on what she likes, and that's fine.

No, I don't do it to look more feminine. I will, however, 'not' wear something if it makes me look more like my guy self. Nor do I do it for attention, I wear what like for me and because I like it. Other peoples opinions on it don't matter. Unless at a band show, where we must present professional(ish) appearances.

Quote from: Faith on September 11, 2024, 06:59:09 AMI've gotten that "dress your age" response. I'm 64 and dressed so, yes, I'm dressing my age. Better than being undressed. Do I look good? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The point is: I like what I wear so I keep wearing it.  Dressing your age is just another social construct of learned expectations. I may, and do, look at someone and think, "that doesn't suit them" Then again, I also think, "As long as they like it and feel good about themselves."

Dress your age? NO! Dress in what you like.

Yes, dress in what you like is okay, not anything for me in professional settings though. In social settings, I think I dress rather conservatively, slightly preppy perhaps. 

However, at times I do wear what I want no matter, even a housecoat or robe all day if at home if I just do not want to get dressed.  I may also wear something you might find in the juniors department instead of the women's but I am okay with that at home or with very close friends.  I might wear one of my long hair wigs with a headband and flower clips too.  I would not go so far as patent leather shiny Mary Jane's but some pretty pink sneakers and socks, yes.

You know what you are comfortable wearing.  I do make sure I wear what is appropriate for the occasion or setting. 

Chrissy