Well, I guess I'll steer clear of the analogies.  Rather than finding God through scripture, all most people find is . . . scripture.  And they seem pretty content with that.  All well and good if they were looking for nothing more in the first place; but, if they were seeking God sincerely before they got sidetracked by so many words on paper, it's pretty sad.

-Celia

Quote from: Celia on March 29, 2006, 05:10:49 PMbut, if they were seeking God sincerely before they got sidetracked by so many words on paper, it's pretty sad.

Forgive them, for they merely heed the binding commandment of this world: forget.

It takes time to learn to walk on the ethereal strands of metaphor and myth. To trust. To believe as an act of creation, rather than using it to kill ideas as one pins butterflies to a collection.

Remember: you too were once as they are

When all the world seems a desert, sometimes a flower blooms and reminds me otherwise.  Thanks for the gentle words, Kate.

Yours,
Celia

Hi Celia,
Good idea, steer clear of analogies and parables and suchlike.  The form is beautiful but people like me like things simple and direct, otherwise we tend to get confused    
I get where you are going now I think   Is what you are saying that people read the Bible and quote from it for their own purposes (like the Devil is supposed to do   ) without really considering what Christ was doing and saying. 

If that is the case then I would agree.  But not with your statement that most people do that.
I am an optimist,  I believe people are searching and are not easily sidetracked

rana

I steered well clear of this thread initially, it is such a can o' worms, 'til now.
As a long-time spiritual sort of person, who is NOT A BELIEVER (NB: I will assert here that the first order of business, in path toward enlightenment is to cast aside all belief), I feel I must respond.
Especially, EG: "the universe is orderly and logical." Well, it does appear to work whether we understand it or not; as per a blanket assertion around "ORDERLY"... well... sure, the planets do not drop out of their orbits, IE: as a mechanical model, it >appears to work<, but a rudimentary reading of Einstein, so glibly quoted there, readily shows his STRUGGLE with chaos vs order. I have no pretense at "scientific", but will pose this thought, as an artist: how much of that "order" is imposed, as a structural idea, by the human? As an attempt to grasp the ungraspable... see Beethoven struggling mightily with the counterpoint...
RE: 'God", capital G: do you REALLY think She's a micromanager? Detail-oriented, or a BIG PICTURE sort of gal? "PRAISE (or blame) GOD" - insert quote from J. Brine: (sic) "I can't understand why God has let these feelings be apart of my life. ... The great thing for me is in my journay is that I no longer try to figure out why God let this happen to me but rather that God is with me. I can't say why God has or has not answered your prayers..."
ERM... God, as posited here, is implicitly OUTSIDE the person. Let me pose this: "God" is sho' nuff WITH you, God IS you. God permeates every aspect of the universe, WHETHER WE UNDERSTAND IT OR NOT. Note Well: There is a sure-fire element of CHAOS present:  This Chaos, for lack of a more subtle word, is woven into FREE WILL; this omnipotent ideal of God appears to allow for (little-or)-no accidents. Think of it: NO ACCIDENTS. God as an artist: imagine it - EVERYTHING is cut-and-dried, everything is in-its-place, like a very tidy room (all properly-formed prayers answered...) I DON'T THINK SO. Example Given: The beauty of a sunset is all about accident (the most colorful ones tend to be in the places where, ahem, the air is not pristine, IE: it takes in the damage and incorporates it into the WORK.) The real beauty of anything is all about accident. Maybe some are born with a body that does not fit the mind or soul? Work with that accident and make it into something beautiful. (Sometimes this requires sculpting... some may need to add some clay... et cetera)
I feel filled with 'God' most, if not all, of the time. Sometimes when I am faced with 'religious' persons, I really gotta wonder, cart before the horse (paraphrasing Celia, above: scripture vs enlightenment), or what?

God is not a myth. The perception, or, conception, of God is usually the myth.

I believe Humanity is a myth that God struggles with continually.

Hate, poverty, selfishness, cruelty. Oh, where is the Humanity? God struggles to believe in us.

Oh yeah, America is a myth too. A powerful myth that still attracts beautiful dreamers from around the world. God stuggles with humanity and America.

God exists. America will exist too, someday. But because something exists, it does not necessarily mean that we can truly know it.

Many people who struggle with God, do so because they have yet to complete the struggle with themselves. It is good to struggle with your own humanity, when you find it, you'll find God. The ones who are unable to struggle with themselves scream the loudest for God, or claim the loudest that they know God personally.

I don't claim to know God, but I believe there is a God. Someday, I hope to to believe in America too.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't mean to be cryptic or weird, but I have no other language for what I want to say.

Is a god a myth?

Okay, this is one of those things where publicly I believe in god, but privately I'm indifferent to the concept.
Being raised Christian has left me superstitious about god.
I certainly don't want to provoke his anger, and stories of hell, fire, torture, and gnashing of teeth frighten me.
So is god a myth?
I don't know, but I surely don't want to invoke his wrath.

Nero

I do believe in God because every time I open my eyes and see the sun shine through the corners of my bedroom window, I also see his face.

tinkerbell

P.S. I've never seen one hundred pounds of gold or a million dollars either but I know these two things exist... right?

First off let me start by letting you know I am an athiest, have been my whole life. I was raised, not in an atheist household, but rather one of free will. My mother is agnostic, and my father, born and raised catholic, I think still believes, but I'm not sure because it's not realy a topic that comes up. My parents wanted my sister and me to make our own decision in the matter and have left out their own views, at least in our younger lives, in order to not skew us into folowing what they believe (in respect to gods existance). However, they never failed to be very moral peole and extend those behaviors onto us. ie) treat others as you would want to be treated, not to be prejudice, not to put yourself infront of others...etc.

anyway, as far as the question of the thread, "why do you believe" or in my case not believe, my reason comes down to logic. To me, it makes logical sense that god does not exist, There is no proof, and any "proof" that anyone of faith ever gives me is never proof. But if anyone is able to lay down real, and I mean real proof of gods existance, that would change my thoughts. I have no problem with "god", I have a problem with organized religion, more so those that expect blind faith; and those that claim to be openminded and accepting of everyone when they aren't.

My reason for posting is to say this...
Why should anyone believe? Because it make sense to you. Not because others tell you to, or because a book tells you to. not because of fear of what going to happen if you don't. And definitally not because everyone else does. Believe or not because in your heart in your mind, it all adds up to believe that way.

Hi Elissa:
I respect your opinion and your reasons for not believing in God. 
However, in my case, my reasons for believing in Him have to do with his greatest creation of all, the human being, for  only God could have created such a beautiful and yet complex creature.
God bless

tinkerbell

When I was kid, I continuously wrestled with the "is there a God?" question. I went 'round and 'round with it, looking for proof where there was none, and faith which I didn't seem to have.

(gee, sounds familiar somehow, lol...)

And suddenly, at age 12, I had a sudden epiphany: I just don't CARE. It just suddenly didn't matter to me anymore. I realized I had mistakenly equated the existence of a God with a requirement to worship Him. I decided that dictators weren't my thing, and anyone who would fry me for not pledging my allegience to them wasn't deserving of my loyalty in the first place. So here I was, a little brat of 12, and I literally raised my hands to heaven and proclaimed, "I defy you!" and waited for the brimstone. It was a terrifying moment, but I couldn't stand not being true to myself anymore, I had to be true to my values and morals, and not subjugate them to the perceived threats of a supernatural dictator.

It was a very liberating experience, marking the beginning of a very different quest for the divine...

Elissa and Kate,
For some of us the fear of god is just too ingrained.
Some of us can never break free of superstitions. I have a friend who literally freaks if a black cat runs across his path. He knows it's ridiculous, but still sees black cats as messengers of impending doom.
I don't care whether god is a myth or not. But I am still superstitiously afraid of him.

Nero

Quote from: Nero on June 26, 2006, 01:28:01 PM
I don't care whether god is a myth or not. But I am still superstitiously afraid of him.

Me too, ironically. Even as I type this, I fear his wrath, as I DO respect his power and authority over his particular domain. He is a jealous god, after all.

But we seem to have a shaky truce: I won't attempt to corrupt his followers, and he won't get in my way. It's something of a supernatural "don't ask, don't tell" policy, lol.

One that I'm treading perilously close to the edge of here.

Maybe part of the problem is equating the word "myth" with "doesn't exist." You can either view this world in terms of it's content, or in terms of it's context. Content people worry about facts, about whether things exist or not. For them, a myth is a falsehood, it doesn't exist. Context people worry about meaning and flavour. For them, a myth is as valid as it's meaning, how well it resonates for them.

I needed Ivory soap yesterday to try and kill off some fungus(?) that's infested my jasmine plant. I was in a hurry, and mistakenly text messaged my wife, who was shopping at the time, "GET DOVE FOR JASMINE."

Curiously, my wife still came home with Ivory soap, not the Dove I'd asked for. Why? Because she read what I MEANT, not what I SAID. Like me, she sees metaphor and meaning, symbols and parable in everything around her. Truths, not facts.

She saw the MYTH. Myths resonate. They simultanesouly exist in many places, for many people, in many circumstances. They aren't limited to content, but rather capture and reflect a context, a flavour.

So "does God exist?" makes no sense to me. God IS myth... God is meaning, resonating everywhere, and in everything. In a bizarre way, if God DID exist, he wouldn't be REAL, as he would just be another piece of content in this world of resonating meaning and myth.

Quote from: Kate on June 26, 2006, 02:29:23 PM
He is a jealous god, after all.

Jealousy is a human trait.  I believe the God exists, however, I don't view Him as wrathful at all.  He is a loving God and a creator.  He wants people to peacefully coexist and is disappointed whenever they are not.  He is a forgiving God.  He will not punish you, but instead you will need to deal with natural consequences.  I do not spend all my time worshipping or thinking of Him, but I do try and be a good person as often as possible.

I find that many christians say contradicting things such as "All you need to do is accept Him into your life and you will be saved" and then they turn around and say "You must go to church every Sunday for your weekly brainwashing or you will go to Hell".  I do agree with the first statement, but not the second.

Melissa

Eeep, another touchy subject.

I feel I'm a spiritual agnostic. I believe that there is (probably) something more, but it is unknowable to we as humans. When the time comes to meet our fates, then maybe we will understand. Until that time, I refuse to pretend.
When I was younger, it felt like the more I read of the Bible, the more I attended Church services, the more disturbing and hypocritical the words and actions felt. As a result, there was a time when I was defiantly atheist, but I have come to realize that what I truly detested and opposed wasn't spirituality or the notion of a higher power, but organized religion, especially certain aggressively expansionistic ones.

Organized religion may have its positives, but the message is ultimately carried by people, and all too often people will twist words and ideas to suit their desires. Religion has been used as a tool for control, a reason for hate and prejudice, a cause for wars and violence, and a pedestal for demagogues and dictators. The vices of mankind taints any such religion, especially one that holds so much power and influence. Our own fears, our prejudices, our beliefs, and our desires are reflected in religion, not the other way around. Just look at the religions through the millennia... and while it's easy to say "but my religion is right, it's the truth: the other's are false", if you had been born somewhere else or in another time, wouldn't you be saying the same about something else? About a different set of beliefs and ideas?

So, my personal belief is that true spirituality ultimately is not something that can be taught or come from outside ourselves. But whether or not a higher power exists, that does not preclude us from living the best we can for ourselves and for our fellow human beings.

Just my two cents.

~Kaitlyn

"Whatever God is, if it exists it's above us in the food chain!"

An interesting view - shared by gnostics and vodoun, oddly enough - is that the ultimate god is actually SO far above us, so far removed from the world of ordinary affairs, that it almost doesn't matter whatsoever in a practical sense. It's never addressed or pleaded to, as it's just not listening. Instead, the "gods" we deal with are lower creatures it's created, more human-like, with all the good and bad that implies.

Not just "above" the food chain, but on a completely different chart!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh what the heck... 

There is no evidence other than man's word that God exists.  So is god a myth - yep I think so.

Steph

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on June 27, 2006, 01:05:51 PM
There is no evidence other than man's word that God exists.  So is god a myth - yep I think so.

Hmmm... cut... insert:

There is no evidence other than people's word that transsexualism exists.  So is transsexualism a myth - yep I think so

I like what you said Kate.

QuoteThere is no evidence other than people's word that transsexualism exists.  So is transsexualism a myth - yep I think so

 
A person that is involved in something, according to the current mind-set in our society, is not able to, share what they have experienced as fact; it is invalidated because they have some kind of investment in it.

Here is an example:
It is not credible evidence if a someone who believes in God says that God is real. Even if they say they have had a personal experience with a God. It only there tainted opinion.
So we listen to scientists and other specialists that have not been influenced by or a relationship with someone that believes in God or a religion.
What do the so called experts say? "There is no proof." They invalidate anything the religious people say because it is only there bias opinion. 
So most of these scientists and specialists respond is that God, is not provable, he must not exist. All of the evidence is bias. The so called experts come to the conclusion that it must be a sickness or a weakness in the mind of those who say such things and that they needs to be cured.
Then what is happening is that people who believe in God are though to be a bad influence on society and are hated and feared.

Now let's apply this to the transsexualism.

It is not credible evidence evidence if a someone who believes in transsexual says that transsexualism is real. Even if they say they have had some personal experience with being a transsexual. It only there tainted opinion.
So we listen to doctors and other specialists that have not been influenced by or that had any relationship with a transgender person or the transgender community.
What do the so called experts say? "There is no real proof." They invalidate anything the transsexual people say because it is only there bias opinion.
So most of these doctors and specialists respond is that transsexualism is not provable, it must not exit. All the evidence is bias. The so called experts come to the conclusion that it must be a sickness or a weakness in the mind of those who say such things and that they needs to be cured.
What has been happening is that transgender people are though to be a bad influence on society are hated and feared.

Just my humble option. Oh! I have to admit that I'm bias.    I am a transsexual and a believer in God.

Jillieann

Quote from: Kate on June 27, 2006, 01:36:35 PM
Hmmm... cut... insert:

There is no evidence other than people's word that transsexualism exists.  So is transsexualism a myth - yep I think so

Yep I'm a myth, I've been called a lot of things before, ->-bleeped-<-, ->-bleeped-<-, queer, pervert, gay, but never a myth, that's probably because I'm in your face, I bleed, I'm physical, I can make you bleed

I guess that's what I find so hard is that I require physical proof.  I don't fault those who follow some form of religion, cult or what ever else you want to call it, I guess they need someone to blame, but I have witnessed first hand what man does to man in the name of god, and it doesn't matter who's god.  It seems to me that as long as you do it in the name of a god that it makes it right.  Muslims kill christians, christians kill muslims and so on and so on, all in the name of their god, who's god is right.  I'm excluded from most religions, I would be killed in Iran and several other fundamentalist countries for being TS.  The mormons hate me, as do the catholics, methodists, and I just know that Jerry Fallwell would just love to have me as his neighbor.  Ya love thy neighbor as thy self (as long as they believe in the right god, or at least have a large bank account)  Since our gods are so benevolent it would be interesting to find out how many of us are "out" in their church, would their church marry a gay or trans couple with full rights.  I know that Melissa and her spouse where shunned by their church.  The vast majority of churches in Canada wouldn't and the government had to pass legislation that would grant those rights, despite the intolerance of the Church.  I'm an active member of the "Positive Space" GLBT community here, and I know how we are treated.  Who among us here actively fight for the rights of our community to be fully accepted in your church, let alone the community.

Yep you can spout all the wisdom in the world but facts are facts.  I'm pretty cynical especially when religion tramples on my human rights, or they would in my country if they were given the chance.  The religious right is very wrong.

Steph