Hi everyone. I have used this forum and various different ones for several years. I see it happen alot of times where people may decide to no longer associate with the transgender community after bottom surgery.

In my case I don't think this is going to make me "not transgender" anymore. I've pretty much had to accept the fact that this is going to be what I am until the day I die. I don't think that's really a bad thing but any additional thoughts on this subject would be appreciated.

Whether or not you are transgender at different mileposts along your journey depends on your perspective. For some people, you will always be the gender you were assigned at birth. For those who know nothing about your transition, you will always be the gender they know you as now. However, possibly the most important person to answer this question is yourself. Some people embrace their past, while others are haunted by it. Whether or not you have bottom surgery, your personal identity is your choice. Unfortunately, we can't make the decision of how others see us.

Love always -- Jessica Rose

I think that Jess makes a lot of sense on this matter.

Chrissy

Quote from: Jessica_Rose on January 29, 2025, 10:50:25 AMWhether or not you are transgender at different mileposts along your journey depends on your perspective. For some people, you will always be the gender you were assigned at birth. For those who know nothing about your transition, you will always be the gender they know you as now. However, possibly the most important person to answer this question is yourself. Some people embrace their past, while others are haunted by it. Whether or not you have bottom surgery, your personal identity is your choice. Unfortunately, we can't make the decision of how others see us.

Love always -- Jessica Rose

Well Said Jessica!

Hugs,

A💕

Quote from: CosmicJoke on January 29, 2025, 10:36:19 AMHi everyone. I have used this forum and various different ones for several years. I see it happen alot of times where people may decide to no longer associate with the transgender community after bottom surgery.

In my case I don't think this is going to make me "not transgender" anymore. I've pretty much had to accept the fact that this is going to be what I am until the day I die. I don't think that's really a bad thing but any additional thoughts on this subject would be appreciated.

My thoughts are that... a lot of people see it as an either/or thing. For a lot of reasons. In their mind you're either "a woman" or "a transgender woman". The two, to them, are markedly different. To me, they're not. But we all think differently.

For me, it isn't an either/or thing, it's an "and" thing. You can be both. And so much more. It doesn't lessen anything by seeing things that way. Any more than thinking of yourself as a right/left handed woman, a blue/green/brown eyed woman, a short/tall woman, a masculine/feminine woman. You get the point. I think most of the problem comes from not how the individual sees themselves, but how the rest of the world sees them. And that's where a lot of the issues and baggage comes from. Which I can very much understand. And why some trans people want to ditch the "trans" part entirely.

I don't really see it as a curse, though. Even though it has cursed me plenty. It has also blessed me more than most other things in my life. I see it as a part of me. Just... not all of me. Like being a woman isn't all of me. It's just part of who I am. I don't think that being transgender makes you any more or less of a man, woman, or anywhere on the spectrum. It is a descriptor for things you've gone through to get to where you want to be. And... well... personally I'm kind of proud of that. I wasn't born female. No matter how much I wish that was different... it isn't. But that doesn't mean I am not female. I just took a different road to find myself. And, as the saying goes... "all roads lead to Rome".

It comes down to definitions, and who is making them.  Obviously, you make the definitions you use and I make the definitions I use.  If you don't want to consider yourself transgender, you don't have to.  "Transgender" = "transitioning".

Me, personally, I think that, if a person is born transgender, they are always transgender.  "Transgender" = "born with a gender identity different from what they were assigned at birth".  However, given the current crisis in the US, I totally understand if people want to lose that designation.  I might change my definition to match yours if our country goes the same way.

Quote from: KathyLauren on January 29, 2025, 03:58:55 PMIt comes down to definitions, and who is making them.  Obviously, you make the definitions you use and I make the definitions I use.  If you don't want to consider yourself transgender, you don't have to.  "Transgender" = "transitioning".

Me, personally, I think that, if a person is born transgender, they are always transgender.  "Transgender" = "born with a gender identity different from what they were assigned at birth".  However, given the current crisis in the US, I totally understand if people want to lose that designation.  I might change my definition to match yours if our country goes the same way.

See... I don't see either of those as... I mean I don't see transitioning = transgender or being born a different gender to what you were assigned at birth.

If you look at it scientifically, "Trans" means two atoms being on the opposite sides of a molecule. That's all it means. In a molecular formula, the same atoms are on both sides of the formula. I would venture that's where the term "Transgender" comes from. And trans... anything else. And the word "Cis", interestingly enough. Which is the opposite. It's all scientific. Being on one or both sides of one thing.

Hi Everyone

I appreciate the thoughts shared about how bottom surgery might change one's connection to the transgender community and whether it alters how someone identifies.  This is something many people think about, and perspectives on it vary widely.  Some people continue to embrace the transgender identity throughout their lives, while others feel that medical changes bring closure and allow them to move forward without that label.

The word transgender is just a label.  People can accept it or reject it based on their own understanding of who they are.  The term was not always commonly used, and for many, it does not define their personal experience.  Historically, words like transsexual and gender dysphoria have evolved over time, but none of these terms are requirements for self-identification.

The DSM-5 makes it clear that gender dysphoria is a medical condition and does not require someone to identify as transgender.  It focuses on distress, not identity, meaning a person can seek medical care without adopting that label (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).  Some find strength in identifying as transgender, while others see it as unnecessary for how they live their lives.

I'm not transgender and never have been, and I have lived my life as a female accordingly.  When I changed my life, the term transgender was not commonly used, and even after encountering it later, I found that it did not apply to me.  Historically, the term transgender only started gaining broader usage in the late 1980s and 1990s (Stryker, 2008).

Georgie Stone's words in The Dreamlife of Georgie Stone reflect this reality.  When she said, "I don't want to be trans," she acknowledged that, while she understands the term, she ultimately knows she is female.  That feeling is shared by many who prefer to live simply as themselves without additional qualifiers.

People step away from the transgender community for various reasons.  Some prioritize privacy, some never felt a strong connection to it, and others, after surgery, see no need to engage with it any further.  Some have lived for decades without participating in any transgender support group or community.  I'm one such person.

I lived in stealth for 20 years before ever interacting with a transgender forum.  After two years of participation, I stepped away again for another 12 years.  Whether someone steps away or remains involved, the choice is deeply personal.  There is no single path that everyone must follow.

Identity is a personal perspective, and no one can define it for someone else.  Whether others see someone as transgender or not is irrelevant.  What matters is how they see themselves.  For some, their assigned gender at birth follows them throughout life, while others define themselves on their own terms.  Some embrace their past, while others distance themselves from it.  Surgery does not change this.  Many people live as women without any need for qualifiers, and that is not up for debate in their minds.

Society often forces people into rigid categories, distinguishing between women and trans women as if they are separate.  But identity is not necessarily an either or issue.  Terms like transgender are social constructs that developed over time, shaped by cultural and historical factors rather than medical necessity (Valentine, 2007).

The DSM-5 does not require someone to identify as transgender to access gender-related medical care, reinforcing that identity and medical needs are separate concepts (American Psychiatric Association, 2013).  Some hold onto labels for personal reasons, while others find them unnecessary.  Being female is not something that needs a secondary descriptor.  It simply is.

Life is not about fitting into predefined categories.  People have the right to embrace or reject any label that does not serve them.  Georgie Stone's perspective highlights that even within the transgender community, there are those who do not want to be seen as trans.  That is a valid feeling.  Some people choose to identify with the term, while others never have.  I'm not transgender, never have been, and have lived as female without ever needing that label.  Identity is not something that has to be publicly defined or justified to anyone.

Surgery does not change who someone is, just as it does not have to change their connection to a community.  Some people remain deeply involved in transgender spaces, while others step away.  Some continue identifying as transgender, while others never did in the first place.  What matters is how people see themselves.  No one else can dictate that.

Bibliography
American Psychiatric Association.  (2013).  Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fifth Edition (DSM-5).  Discusses gender dysphoria as a clinical condition, not an identity.
Stryker, S.  (2008).  Transgender History.  Seal Press.  Explains how transgender as a term gained usage in the late 20th century.
Valentine, D.  (2007).  Imagining Transgender: An Ethnography of a Category.  Duke University Press.  Explores the ways in which transgender is a constructed label and how it does not universally define identity.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@CosmicJoke

Hi Kathy

I understand that some people define "transgender = transitioning" and apply those words accordingly while they change their lives.  However, I must disagree with the statement that "transgender means born with a gender identity different from what was assigned at birth".

Why? I changed my life in 1989, yet it was not until I discovered Susan's in 2010 that I fully realized I was female. At 51, I understood that I had always been female, in hindsight.  My gender identity was not something I actively recognized from birth, it was something I came to understand later.  In other words, my gender identity is immutable, but my awareness of it was not always present.

Gender identity is generally stable and deeply ingrained for most people, similar to sexual orientation.  However, some individuals experience shifts in their gender identity over time due to self-discovery or external influences.

While attempts to forcibly change gender identity are ineffective and unethical, individual experiences vary, indicating that gender identity is usually stable but may shift for some people.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@KathyLauren @Sephirah

It is all in the eye of the beholder, so to speak.

As the saying goes for some,

"I did not decide to become a woman.  I just stopped pretending to be a man." 


So as you transition you are pretending less often to be a man.  So when you no longer pretend to be a man, is transitioning over? 


Are you no longer transgender?   I suppose that is a question for each to answer herself.

What you all say makes sense.

The trouble is that the Powers That Be in various countries and states have their own definitions and rules that affect people whatever their true nature and however they see themselves.

They decide what care children can receive and at what age, what hospital wards people can be treated in, which toilets people can use and in which prisons people are incarcerated.

Of course it isn't just the Powers That Be that affect how we can live our lives,  When I was a child I wanted to play with the girls and dress like them.  Many adult women, even apparently intelligent ones like Germaine Greer and J K Rowling, seem horrified at the very idea of people assigned male at birth being in their society. 

Germaine, Joanne, I just want to skip rope and share make-up tips with you, I don't want to hurt you.
   

Nobody becomes trans or ceases to be trans. We are born diverse within the range of human condition, and we have discomfort with our sex role. Many of us ease or eliminate this discomfort by more closely aligning ourselves with our self image, but it doesn't change who we are, it just reduces the discomfort we felt.

The concept that we can become trans and cease being trans is dangerous. It is the basis of the right wing conservative claim of 'trans ideology' and conversion practices. We must never validate the conservative claims which invalidate us.

Hugs,

Allie

Hi Allie

I followed in the footsteps of famous individuals like Christine Jorgensen, Renée Richards and Jan Morris who opened pathways for living without a modern labels such as transgender.  I can name many more famous individuals and they are not the only ones.  It is important to note that 'transgender' is a label and not a medical term.

In earlier times people followed a medical model that provided practical means to align their bodies with their inner sense of self rather than adopting a social category.  I changed my life around in a way that felt right without knowing any of todays modern language about identities or knowing what I was doing.  I never suffered distress, instead, I fully embraced who I truly was with unwavering clarity and resolve, without realising at the time, that was what I was doing.

Because of this background, I reject the claim that 'Nobody becomes trans or ceases to be trans.'  The idea that transgender is merely a modern label applied to anyone who changes their body or role overlooks historical realities. 'Transgender' is not a medical term; it is a social identity.  Before the term became widely used, many people took steps to align their lives with their true selves without ever considering themselves transgender or viewing their actions as part of an identity category.

If the label can never be lost then everyone such as Renée Richards, Jan Morris or me must have been transgender all along.  This forces an identity on those who never asked for it.  In more recent times some individuals have identified as transgender for a while and later rejected the label.  Denying their choice contradicts the principle of self-identification and denies their autonomy.

For me, aligning with my self-image did not change who I am because I have always been female; rather, it enabled me to live as I truly am.  For me and others it meant living in a way that truly reflected who we are.

Claiming that recognizing changes in transgender identity is dangerous because it validates conservative rhetoric is equally flawed. Truth cannot be suppressed to avoid misuse.  If some individuals walk away from a transgender label then that is a fact that must be acknowledged.

Ultimately, the original argument or discussion erases the diverse experiences of individuals who have found ways to live without being confined to a permanent or transgender label.  It overlooks historical contexts and dismisses anyone whose life does not conform to a single, unchanging identity.

By claiming that "Nobody becomes or ceases to be trans",  ignores those who have later found the label unsuitable, thereby erasing a wide range of valid experiences from both past and present.  My history and the stories of many others directly refutes this notion.  I have lived without ever calling myself transgender and I see no reason to adopt that label now.

Best Wishes Always
Sarah B
Global Moderator
@Allie Jayne

Sarah, The term transgender might mean different things to different people, but I see our community suffering because conservatives have seized upon this uncertainty and used it to outright say our community is not legitimate, we have an ideology, a gender theory, or ->-bleeped-<-. Now if it was only name calling, you could ignore it, but it is clear the US government is legislating our community out of existence. And it isn't limited to the US as conservatives around the world are jumping on the Trump bandwagon.

And it is partly our doing. We have allowed the uncertainty to fester into the current state instead of working to challenge the claims. We have done nothing to make our existence clear and beyond challenge. If you can jump in and out of being transgender how can we argue against conversion practices? The important definition of being transgender has been taken away from us, and now belongs to conservatives as a weapon to erase us.

I have never subscribed to any of the current or former terms. I have always just been me. But I can see the terminology the majority of society recognises, and how it is being used against our community. I see a time to strip things down to basics and present a succinct definition of who we are.

I am urging you and others to see that the term transgender has been weaponised against us, and to avoid validating our enemies doctrines. It is no longer the time to wait for someone to come save us, we need to save ourselves. Times have changed, and terms changed with it. Gay used to mean happy when Renee Richards was in the news, but it is so different now.

My post presented an alternative view to answer the OP's question, and pointed out the danger of the current majority use of the term transgender. If we can't see what is happening now, we are doomed.

Hugs,

Allie

I kind of agree with both of you. Even though you don't agree with each other, lol.

Sarah, you're right in that the term "Transgender" has become a label. A badge to hang around peoples' necks. One word that can be used to represent a whole lot of different things. And some people use that as the basis for their identity. It becomes something larger. Something to embrace because it offers meaning to how you feel. And just as many people don't want that to be a thing in their lives. Neither are wrong.

Allie, you're right in that this is being weaponised. It's being used as a stick to beat people by the current global populist insanity. You're both essentially saying the same thing.

I do kind of agree with Allie when she talks about being trans isn't something you start or stop. This is my own personal view. But then I don't see "transgender" as a label, or an identity. I just see it as something that, even if there isn't a word for it, or you don't have a term for it, it just is what it is. And I don't identify with it anymore than I identify as left handed, if this makes sense. It just describes being born differently to how I want to live, physically, in terms of gender. Nothing more, nothing less. Many things don't have a word for them, until they do. That's kind of how science works. It's up to us what we do with them, though. How they affect and effect us.

And it's this effect which seems to be a big sticking point. If you don't see being transgender as an identity. Just a footnote in your life, then whether you were transgender all along or not... doesn't really matter. Unless you make it matter. It is just a thing that was part of your life.

There have been a number of members here who have had bottom surgery and live as a woman that have left and have not returned here.  Perhaps some of them think they are no longer transgender.  Maybe some still do. 

Maybe we just do not know and they left for one or more of a variety of reasons.

I hope all are safe and are doing well. 

This place provides a service that people need... until they don't. Then they move on. I've lost count of the number of people I've seen come and go through here. Is why I rarely get attached to people.

I agree though, Chrissy, I hope everyone is doing well, wherever they are and whatever they're doing.

The thing I think some of you are missing here is that after you erase your gender dysphoria, then life takes over. If social change, surgical change or some mix or combination of both gives you relief from the dysphoria you have been experiencing, then you are sort of just living life now, as any other person is..
I have compared it to a cancer survivor - there is a point when you realize you have cancer, it might be childhood, or later in life - you then live with that knowledge, a fact that could potentially kill you. You plan on what needs to be done to combat this problem.. and then for a few, tortuous years, fighting the cancer is all you can think about and deal with - then you get a clear.. a pass.. a good sign that the worst is over.. shakily, you start to rebuild your life.. a year goes by and nothing else seems to rear it's head.. another year and life.. stuff happening is more important than the fact you survived.. you will always be a survivor.. it will always be there in the back of your mind - but how you deal with that for the rest of your life is personal. some will want to stand on stage, talk about their heroics, write books and column inches giving advice on 'how to survive'.. others, will just breathe a sigh of relief, maybe in some quiet moment of reflection, shed a tear for all the pain they have endured and say a small prayer to their God in thanks for the happiness they have been, at last, given.. Their's is not to inform or wave banners or march in parades. They are content to just live... and so, a forum of people, who are either going through the pain, deciding on going through the pain or here for other reasons that are best left to them.. is not that appealing.

Personally, I am a people person. I like people. But, dealing with my GD was something I felt I could not trust anyone with - the anonymity of a forum like this allowed me to talk to people about what crisis I was facing. Help them too if I could.. Now I don't need to talk about such things to me, and when offering advice on here, it seems to come from an ivory tower as I was one of 'them that made it'.. people with less experience on the matter at hand, belittle and shout louder... and as such I prefer my friends in real life now. They don't know who I was, they don't really care. I am Sarah to them, we talk about everything, politics, babies, clothes, religion, science and music and all the things that interest us.. now I do not have to deal with my cancer, with my crisis - I have this freedom.. and it feels good.

And so.. it is not so much 'we no longer identify'.. it is more we have bigger issues than what we survived to deal with now.. and I am sure you don't want to hear about how my new tires cost me an arm and a leg or what I am planning on crocheting next?.  Transition was big in our life and at the time, the biggest thing ever.. but it isn't and shouldn't be that way for ever..

@SoupSarah

Wow, thank you for this!

That is a wonderful way to explain the experience through all of its phases. I love it!