I have both the arm angle and finger length ratio for a female.  Now I'm going to have to check other people out all the time.  How funny. 
Too bad you don't get time off therapy for having feminine traits.  LOL

I don't really know about the carrying angle ... I've actually messed with it intentionally at different times in my life, so who knows?

My digit ratio is just about dead even, so i guess that means I'm a woman with poor spatial skills and no particular musical talent. Well, one out of three ain't bad.... Oh, well. So much for applying averages to individuals. I'm not really all that into etiology anyway.

I found this paper on arm carrying angles.

http://medind.nic.in/jal/t04/i1/jalt04i1p14.pdf

I have feminine elbows, if only I had the hips to go with it!

The "Melanie" you guys have cited is possibly Melanie Phillips. Although she is hardly the only "Melanie" who has transitioned. But, you better check her sites quick. She's been removing them as she wants to do other things in life than be a professional TS. Zythyra had a news post indicating that a month or two ago.

N~

QuoteI don't really know about the carrying angle ... I've actually messed with it intentionally

There may be some confusion here it's not how you carry your arms... it's the angle between the upper arm
and forearm when your palms are facing out. Males have a fairly straight arm and females have arms
that jut out away from the body... the theory says to clear wide hips.

I have female elbows and my index and ring finger are identical lengths. If you believe the theories
having those body traits are a marker for improper hormone levels as a fetus and the same improper
levels of hormone are thought to cause transsexuality.

I also have a very small skeletal body frame for a male, small jaw, small feet and hands which are also
thought to be determined by testosterone levels.

Of course since it works for me I tend to believe it

Amanda

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 29, 2008, 05:43:16 PM

Of course since it works for me I tend to believe it

I suspect that is the case with "Melanie" as well. We seldom propose things that we will find invalidate us.

Which is why I am perfectly fine with 'carry-angles' and my longer-than-ring-fingers index fingers.

N~

Okay, but I don't always type what I am thinking.

QuoteI suspect that is the case with "Melanie" as well. We seldom propose things that we will find invalidate us.

Absolutely


Amanda

You were teasing NicHole, Amanda. >

I love watching TS's scrabble to claim what they have as feminine. It's something fully understandable, and really quite cute. But funny also. Did you know my doctor said I have the most female spleen they have ever seen? Apparently it is the most beauteous shade of puce.

Quote from: Nichole on April 29, 2008, 05:59:03 PM

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on April 29, 2008, 05:43:16 PM

Of course since it works for me I tend to believe it

I suspect that is the case with "Melanie" as well. We seldom propose things that we will find invalidate us.

Which is why I am perfectly fine with 'carry-angles' and my longer-than-ring-fingers index fingers.

N~

Okay, but I don't always type what I am thinking.

While it's interesting as anecdotical data and helps understand the phenomenon of TSism better, it's hardly what it seems sometimes: external validation and who has more of it.

Carrying angle
Men have 173, women 168, that's just 5% difference (180% is straight).
And women have shorter arms, so the actual space that it would
give the hips by mid arm (where the arm hits the hip)
would be maybe 1 inch over men (that's not a lot).
Men have smaller angle, but longer arm, so the distance off from being straight
is can be bigger than a women even with the smaller angle.

As an example, for me, a female carrying angle gives me 1.5 inch horizontally more at
the tip of my fingers than with a male carryng angle. (3.5 VS ~ 2 inch).

So, they're not sure why it exists, not for the hips, though it seems to be due
to very early lack of T exposure, like the digit ratio difference.

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 01, 2008, 10:23:02 AM
I love watching TS's scrabble to claim what they have as feminine. It's something fully understandable, and really quite cute. But funny also. Did you know my doctor said I have the most female spleen they have ever seen? Apparently it is the most beauteous shade of puce.

Well, that's not too hard to fix with Spleen Feminization Surgery (SFS) nowadays.

Quote from: Floating on May 01, 2008, 11:23:10 AM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 01, 2008, 10:23:02 AM
I love watching TS's scrabble to claim what they have as feminine. It's something fully understandable, and really quite cute. But funny also. Did you know my doctor said I have the most female spleen they have ever seen? Apparently it is the most beauteous shade of puce.

Well, that's not too hard to fix with Spleen Feminization Surgery (SFS) nowadays.

Wot, add some frills?

From the wikipedia:

When the arm is extended, with the palm facing forward or up, the bones of the humerus and forearm are not perfectly aligned. The deviation from a straight line (generally on the order of 5-10°-men, 10-25°-women) occurs in the direction of the thumb, and is referred to as the carrying angle (visible in the right half of the picture, right). In females the carrying angle is greater than in males.[3]

Sounds like we all have a carrying angle.

Is it any coincidence that the finger used to pick your nose is relatively longer in women? 

25 degree seems extreme,  as carrying arm, the study pointed earlier in the thread had
carrying angle of 12% average for females, 7% for males. About 1-1.5 inch difference on
average at the end of the arn's infers.

Of course, there is a curve around the average, so I don't doubt there are 17 deg women and 2 deg males,  but 25%, woooaa, that's an handicap.

AaargghhH!!! Units!!! Do you all mean degrees? (Percent and inches are not degrees. So I'm confused as to what you're saying.)

12 degrees is about 1/5 radians; 7 degrees is about 1/8 radians. So if a forearm from elbow to fingertips is 15 inches, then the deviation from straight is 15/5=3 inches for a woman or 15/8=2 inches for a man on average (at least, after a lot of rounding).

That seems like a reasonably large effect, at least within the context of the generally subtle things that help us to visually differentiate between men and women (beyond obvious but changeable things like hair, sress, makeup, musculature, breasts...). On the other hand, I don't think this particular effect is one that most people notice, consciously or subconsciously. That goes for the finger length thing too. But I guess I'm getting into issues of passing rather than etiology.

Quote from: Ashley Michelle on May 01, 2008, 08:44:56 PM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 01, 2008, 11:24:30 AM

Quote from: Floating on May 01, 2008, 11:23:10 AM

Quote from: Pica Pica on May 01, 2008, 10:23:02 AM
I love watching TS's scrabble to claim what they have as feminine. It's something fully understandable, and really quite cute. But funny also. Did you know my doctor said I have the most female spleen they have ever seen? Apparently it is the most beauteous shade of puce.

Well, that's not too hard to fix with Spleen Feminization Surgery (SFS) nowadays.

Wot, add some frills?

ooooh, a frilly spleen sounds absolutely fabulous!

i'm thinking of adding an extra "e" myself, so i will have a spleeen.

Not a spleene, Ash? The seventeenth century Brit way!!

N~

espleen, sounds like a convertable sports car

I was thinking about this a couple of days ago and I remembered something that my friend was telling me when I was alot younger.  He became really obsessed with werewolves and vampires. He even had stashes of holy water in his backpack - just in case.

Anyway, I think I remember him talking about ring fingers.  I couldn't find an exact source.. BUT...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_do_werewolves_live
and
http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010000.php

here are a couple of things I found with a quick googling.

Apparently long index fingers are a sure sign of being a werewolf. ^_^

I don't really believe the finger ratio. Most guys I know, ring and index is about the same.