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Genderfluid

Started by Lilis, April 15, 2025, 08:51:56 PM

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Lilis

@Mrs. Oliphant

Annika, I'm moving our conversation here just trying to be respectful of @TanyaG's thread.

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 15, 2025, 07:48:23 PMI have read and reread every word of your blog.
Oh, thank you for reading and stopping by.

QuoteLike you, I am him and I am her. Unlike you, sometimes I don't which I am.
This is where and why a gender therapist can be incredibly helpful not because anything is wrong with you, but to support you in navigating what's going on inside.


QuoteThe 'her' you present in this space is perfect.
I don't present anything, my gender is on a sliding scale and it present which ever on it's own.


QuoteBut, I have little doubt if you shared the 'him' with us, he, too, would be perfect.
I don't know, maybe he would know, and the people he interacts with.

QuoteGender and sexuality matter.They matter a lot.
These are two different things, they are not the same.

Sexuality is another different subject.

QuoteI mean, I've spent so much of my life looking for me. I'm getting closer to finding him and her. I can feel that in my soul. But that is the part that matters, the soul. I'm not sure gender has a darn thing to do with my soul. Or with yours.
Hahaha, does anyone know what gender is?

QuoteYou're a mother/father.
I think there's has been an misunderstanding.

I am not Assigned Female at Birth (AFAB).

I am Assigned Male At Birth (AMAB).


~ Lilis 💗
More about me:
Emerging from Darkness  ✨ | GAHT - 6/10/2024. ⚕️ | Electrolysis - 2/23/2025 ⚡| Progesterone - 3/24/2025 ⚕️ | Body laser - 3/26/2025 👙

"I'm still exploring what it means to be me". 💭

Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: Lilis on April 15, 2025, 08:51:56 PMI think there's has been an misunderstanding.
Misunderstanding is my forte. Lilis, I'm not going to respond point by point. I can't. You are not who I think you are, you are you. If I'm not in 'misunderstanding' mode, 'he' has little interest in sharing with me. I respect that, but I still like him. Anymore, I call myself gender queer. Fluid seemed like an euphemism. I grew up hating the word 'queer.' But now, I embrace it. I have a therapist. She's helpful. But this is one road I walk alone. Sexuality? I'm in love with a woman with a penis. And I'm straight, or lesbian, depending upon who I am when I awaken. I'm also an AMAB, though I suspected that was a mistake by the time I was four. As far as reading and stopping by? I suppose. But when I read what you have to say, I'm searching for myself. The person revealing herself in your words gives me hope I will find me. Him or her (they/them never seemed to fit). Someday, I will find her. Even if she's a 'him.' I want to be your friend, Lilis. Gender and sexuality have nothing to do with that hope. You do. If you allow me to, I will share the secrets of my soul. If you allow yourself to, I will embrace your secrets as a sacred trust. That's what friends do. Not that I have any, not since I came out. But I could really use one.

Lilis

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 15, 2025, 09:13:54 PMMisunderstanding is my forte. Lilis, I'm not going to respond point by point. I can't. You are not who I think you are, you are you. If I'm not in 'misunderstanding' mode, 'he' has little interest in sharing with me. I respect that, but I still like him.
I have no control over it. Last I heard, he's grieving and longing to hear from a woman with whom the flow and connection of conversation felt effortless. But after weeks of talking, she suddenly vanished into the void of cyberspace.

Maybe one day you'll reach him too, but not here and not now, it doesn't seem likely.

He's still processing that pain.

QuoteSexuality? I'm in love with a woman with a penis. And I'm straight, or lesbian, depending upon who I am when I awaken. I'm also an AMAB, though I suspected that was a mistake by the time I was four.
Sexuality and identity can be complex, and it's totally okay that yours shifts. I am bisexual and my sexuality is as fluid as my gender so I understand.

I don't understand what you mean about "a woman with a penis?"

My understanding is that gender has no physical substance. Can expand on what you mean?


QuoteAs far as reading and stopping by? I suppose. But when I read what you have to say, I'm searching for myself. The person revealing herself in your words gives me hope I will find me. Him or her (they/them never seemed to fit). Someday, I will find her. Even if she's a 'him.'
It means a lot that my words resonate with you in some way. I really hope your journey leads you to the version of yourself you've been searching for whoever that turns out to be.


QuoteI want to be your friend, Lilis. Gender and sexuality have nothing to do with that hope. You do.
Sure, we can be online friends! I visit this forum daily, so we can always connect here and support each other.

QuoteIf you allow me to, I will share the secrets of my soul. If you allow yourself to, I will embrace your secrets as a sacred trust. That's what friends do. Not that I have any, not since I came out. But I could really use one.
There's no need to share all our secrets, but let's be there for each other with kind words and a listening ear. At the same time, it's important to be cautious about sharing too much personal information. This is an open forum, we're nothing more than kind strangers trying our best to help one another by sharing what we've learned from our own journeys.



~ Lilis 💗
More about me:
Emerging from Darkness  ✨ | GAHT - 6/10/2024. ⚕️ | Electrolysis - 2/23/2025 ⚡| Progesterone - 3/24/2025 ⚕️ | Body laser - 3/26/2025 👙

"I'm still exploring what it means to be me". 💭

TanyaG

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 15, 2025, 09:13:54 PMIf I'm not in 'misunderstanding' mode, 'he' has little interest in sharing with me. I respect that, but I still like him. Anymore, I call myself gender queer. Fluid seemed like an euphemism. I grew up hating the word 'queer.'

The question I'd ask here, apart from it feels a little formal referring to you as Mrs Oliphant (I love first names), is: have you thought about why 'he' doesn't have any interest in sharing with 'me'.

It's worth exploring what the barrier is between 'he' and 'me' and why 'he' and 'me' exist in you. If you were brought up to hate the word queer that might be an entry point we can use?

Quote from: Mrs. Elephant on April 15, 2025, 09:13:54 PMIf you allow me to, I will share the secrets of my soul

Lillis is right, oversharing, particularly of information that might identify us if we don't want to be identified, isn't a great idea. But sharing the contents of our heads, as in our thoughts and feelings, can't identify us and can be extraordinarily helpful.

The reason it's useful sharing thoughts and feelings is that in our attempts to be normative we pitch our natural gender identity into a guerrilla war against the identity we were brought up in, and every time the shooting starts, it's against a background of loudspeakers blaring out propaganda to inspire the government funded troops of our upbringing (I'm stretching this metaphor for sure...) to greater sacrifice agains the less well resourced and numerically outnumbered guerillas of our own nature. Believe what's coming over the Tannoy and the guerillas are ideologically driven devils, but what if they're not? What if instead, they're fighting for the just cause of their freedom?

Even sharing thoughts and feelings goes against some critical traits AMAB people were brought up with. It can feel wrong and it can feel weak, not that that's what Lillis is getting at. But it has to be done in order to work out what the propaganda the 'other side' is sending out and to understand why it does it. That's a choke point in most trans people's therapy.

In your writing 'he has little interest in sharing with me' have you hit that block? Is that your way of saying it? Or something else?
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Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: Lilis on April 15, 2025, 10:29:00 PMI don't understand what you mean about "a woman with a penis?"

My understanding is that gender has no physical substance. Can expand on what you mean?
The void of cyberspace and the seventh circle of hell have much in common. You so eloquently expanded on what I meant to say (gender is not physical) nothing I could add would be of value. Thanks, Lilis.
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Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: TanyaG on April 16, 2025, 04:34:11 AMIn your writing 'he has little interest in sharing with me' have you hit that block? Is that your way of saying it? Or something else?
I'm not sure what I mean, TanyaG. It's been a difficult few days dealing with some personal stuff. I really don't want to say anything to anyone until I'm in a better place. Not because I don't have things I need to say and even more things I need to hear but because I'm so afraid I will say the 'wrong' things and nothing more will be said to me that I need to hear. I'll get busy 'scoring' a bit later today. Thanks
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Mrs. Oliphant

The verdict is in! I completed a rather complex 'test' under TanyaG's guidance and it came back 'strongly feminine' (which in itself is a bit oxymoronic). I think that means I'm not a queer anymore; I'm a woman (which some of you may have already suspected). I'm in no rush to change my pronouns, though; it's been less than two years since I came out to my daughter as 'genderfluid.' However, going forward, I intend to embrace my 'womanhood' and see where the journey takes me. Baby steps. I am excited beginning this next phase but it took me eight years to accept and express my queerness so I don't feel as though there is a need to rush. I greatly appreciate the time and effort TanyaG committed on behalf. I know it's just another tool in my toolbox (darn, those male metaphors are pesky), but it is an important one.   
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Lilis

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 17, 2025, 01:47:14 PMI think that means I'm not a queer anymore; I'm a woman (which some of you may have already suspected).

This made me smile so much, Annika!

Congratulations on embracing this next chapter of your journey!


~ Lilis 🫂💗
More about me:
Emerging from Darkness  ✨ | GAHT - 6/10/2024. ⚕️ | Electrolysis - 2/23/2025 ⚡| Progesterone - 3/24/2025 ⚕️ | Body laser - 3/26/2025 👙

"I'm still exploring what it means to be me". 💭

TanyaG

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 17, 2025, 01:47:14 PMThe verdict is in! I completed a rather complex 'test' under TanyaG's guidance and it came back 'strongly feminine' (which in itself is a bit oxymoronic). I think that means I'm not a queer anymore

I'd clarify the situation this way. You consistently picked feminine traits in your first pass through the Gender Game, Annika, which can be a good pointer, but it is in no way a validated tool, hence the word, 'game'.

Just as emotions aren't a problem per se, it's what you do with them that creates goodness or badness, so it goes with gender traits. It's what you do with them which defines you.

So, it's up to each person to decide what they do with the gender traits they are sympathetic to, which may or may not include a decision about transition, and a decision about their sex. Only the person concerned is in a place to take those decisions, depending on the balance. I for example am almost fifty:fifty masculine traits versus feminine ones.

It's a complex process, because when people who are in between the moment they suspect they are trans and accepting they are trans (and before even working out what sort of trans they are) they tend to rationalise when they should be reflecting.

In other words, they work on answers instead of asking questions and exploring more. Decisions are comforting because they bring a veneer of certainty, but that certainty can be off or wrong.

To give a for instance, AMAB people who have feminine gender expression are often seen by others as being gay men. That's because strongly binary people high in masculine gender traits equate AMAB with masculinity and masculinity with sexual attraction to women. Vice versa, those people equate femininity with attraction to men, hence to them someone who appears male but has feminine gender expression must be gay. That's pure scripting.

I've worked with people who've rationalised this way about themselves. If they do, it becomes a two pronged psychological fork they end up using to prod themselves, because the odds are that, like the majority of people, they are straight; and second, they very often hold learned gendered scripts which are in no way sympathetic to same sex attracted people.

If someone makes this sort of wrong connection, they can end up delaying the discovery they are trans by years, if not decades, because of all the time they waste trying to persuade themselves they're not gay, up to and including episodes of hyper masculinity or hyper femininity.

It's like building a house, get the foundations aligned and the frame will be aligned. Get the frame aligned and the walls will be square. Get the walls square and everything from units going in easily and pictures hanging right follows.

It sounds simple put like that but get the foundations out by an amount the eye cannot detect and it can pile up issues later on :-) Measure twice, cut once, isn't that what they say?
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Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: TanyaG on April 18, 2025, 03:25:22 AMMeasure twice, cut once, isn't that what they say?
Masculine metaphors certainly are ubiquitous. As I said, the degree of femineity revealed by the 'game' is a tool in my tool box (or needle in my sewing kit) and not a map and compass for the journey I am on. I am proceeding very slowly with this. And cautiously. However, I would rather be a woman than the chimera I attempted to mimic. But, the most important thing is to become who I am. Lilis calls it 'unveiling'. For me, it's more like ripping off masks I've worn since childhood in order to convince other people who I am, since I have an inconsistent sense of self. All that being said, I am so grateful for having you to turn to when I come upon something I do not understand about this journey. And that seem to occur quite often.
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Lilis

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 02:03:16 PMI am proceeding very slowly with this. And cautiously. However, I would rather be a woman than the chimera I attempted to mimic.

QuoteBut, the most important thing is to become who I am. Lilis calls it 'unveiling'. For me, it's more like ripping off masks I've worn since childhood in order to convince other people who I am, since I have an inconsistent sense of self.

Yes, but it's also important to remember that we're not therapists, gender specialists, or medical professionals.

So please take what we share here with a grain of salt, and don't try to navigate this entirely on your own without support from qualified professionals.

What we offer is meant for discussion and shared experience, not diagnosis or treatment.


~ Lilis 🫂
More about me:
Emerging from Darkness  ✨ | GAHT - 6/10/2024. ⚕️ | Electrolysis - 2/23/2025 ⚡| Progesterone - 3/24/2025 ⚕️ | Body laser - 3/26/2025 👙

"I'm still exploring what it means to be me". 💭

Sephirah

My head hurts reading this, lol.  :-\

You are who you are. Whoever that is. That's all there has to be. You are beautiful because you are you. Again, that's all there has to be. When it isn't all there has to be... that's where issues start.

I admit I don't really see people in terms of gender. So I'm probably a bit biased. I love people because they're people. Lilis is Lilis, Annika is Annika. Whoever you feel like is entirely up to you and makes no difference to me. I don't care about what bits are where. Doesn't make your heart any less warm. Or your smile any less sincere.

I am kind of the village idiot when it comes to complex understanding of gender. To me, people are just people. I did click on that link but it was way too complicated for me, lol. I am your online personality test girl. Wholly inaccurate and subjective but hey. ;D I tend to go with intuition over logic, lol. I would make a really bad Vulcan. ;D

If Lilis wants to be called she/her, then she's Lilis. If Lilis wanted to be called he/him, he'd also be Lilis. No less beautiful and no less amazing. To me it's very simple. Same with anyone.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3

Mrs. Oliphant

I totally agree with Lilis and with Sephirah, and appreciate TanyaG's insight. I go elsewhere for therapy; I visit here for connection. For community. But the line sometimes becomes blurred because I carry so much ambiguity into both places. And into my own self-healing, meditation. Reflection. Prayer. But I know without a doubt I see myself more clearly now when I look into a mirror than I did before I joined Susan's or insisted the VA provided me with a therapist. Though both roads tend to get a bit rocky at times.
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Sephirah

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 04:44:23 PMI totally agree with Lilis and with Sephirah, and appreciate TanyaG's insight. I go elsewhere for therapy; I visit here for connection. For community. But the line sometimes becomes blurred because I carry so much ambiguity into both places. And into my own self-healing, meditation. Reflection. Prayer. But I know without a doubt I see myself more clearly now when I look into a mirror than I did before I joined Susan's or insisted the VA provided me with a therapist. Though both roads tend to get a bit rocky at times.

Annika, you have an amazing smile. You are you. Who that is, is for you. But your smile.. is for everyone. I told you before I even saw you that you are gorgeous. I stand by that. :)

As Nietzche said: "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."

We are both still here. :)
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: Sephirah on April 18, 2025, 04:49:46 PMAs Nietzche said: "That which does not kill us, makes us stronger."
My umpteenth wife had a juvenile delinquent son who, after many years in kiddie prison, paraphrased Nietzsche thusly in a poem, "That which doesn't kill us, makes us colder..." I've often thought about that. It was a good poem. We are both still here, Sephirah. And neither of us are colder. We chose to be stronger. My smile is for everyone. Hopefully, it will someday make someone stronger. There's already more than enough coldness in the world. I wish I could take back so many words I've said in my life. I pray all the words I have left to say make people stronger. Or, at the very least, tease a smile from their lips. 
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Sephirah

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 07:29:29 PMMy umpteenth wife had a juvenile delinquent son who, after many years in kiddie prison, paraphrased Nietzsche thusly in a poem, "That which doesn't kill us, makes us colder..."

There's an argument for that, too. Some people go down that road. I've been down that road myself. A long time ago. It took a lot of hard work and a lot of kind people to help me see that... it doesn't have to be that way. It's a choice. It depends on what you're going through and the people you have around you, I suspect.

It's akin to another Nietzche quote: "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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Mrs. Oliphant

Quote from: Sephirah on April 18, 2025, 07:35:54 PMthe abyss gazes also into you."
Beautiful! And a Nietzsche quote I don't recall reading (and once upon a time I considered myself an existentialist). I jumped back in to add to my previous post "Thanks for your kind words, Sephirah. They made me smile."
  Yeah. And those monsters can be so appealing and the abyss so tempting. We made other choices. Sometimes, I even made the right choice. But not always. While we're on the subject, do you have any idea what the heck Hegel was talking about? Personally, I think Phenomenology is more about psychology than philosophy. Serious question, girl. Are we created by what we behold? And do we create the beheld?
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TanyaG

Quote from: Mrs. Oliphant on April 18, 2025, 04:44:23 PMI see myself more clearly now when I look into a mirror than I did before I joined Susan's or insisted the VA provided me with a therapist. Though both roads tend to get a bit rocky at times.

Navigating the rocky roads of the mind is as much about understanding what the rocks represent and why they are there as it is about traveling the road itself. You can tell when you're close to a rock in therapy because stress levels rise as the rock moves from being something you can drive around into something that must be considered, but the stress levels fall after closure, because the rock has usually dissolved into a heap of pebbles interesting of themselves, but too small to get in the way.

ChrissyRyan

Is the term genderfluid the same as bigender?  Or is genderfluid not necessarily binary, that is, not necessarily limited to the common genders of male and female? 

Always stay cheerful, be polite, kind, and understanding. Accepting yourself as the woman you are is very liberating.  Never underestimate the appreciation and respect of authenticity.  Help connect a person to someone that may be able to help that person.  Be brave, be strong.  A TRUE friend is a treasure.  Relationships are very important, people are important, and the sooner we all realize that the better off the world will be.  Try a little kindness.  Be generous with your time, energy, wisdom, and resources.   Inconvenience yourself to help someone.   I am a brown eyed, brown haired woman. 
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TanyaG

Quote from: ChrissyRyan on April 19, 2025, 07:22:20 AMIs the term genderfluid the same as bigender?  Or is genderfluid not necessarily binary, that is, not necessarily limited to the common genders of male and female? 

My 2p is all these terms are yet to gain firm definitions?

Bigender doesn't seem to be used much? If so, I've mostly heard it used by people (or about people) who I would think of as nonbinary. In other words, somewhere in the middle of polar gender axis? As in 'two spirit' or having elements of two genders?

Gender fluid I think of as being like fluid sexuality (and all of Anne Diamond's papers,) so describing someone whose gender identity varies and isn't fixed.

I'd love to hear what others think.
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