Quote from: Chynna on December 24, 2007, 06:11:25 PM
It's very possible..........

The (what I term as "normal" people LMAO) i have encounter take you for what you carrrier yourself has......
If you act like a woman and carry yourself as such then you are preceived as just that even with a full beard and a three piece business suit

Fail... if a man in a business suit and beard acts like a woman, he looks gay to society. NOT like a woman by any stretch... even if he speaks and behaves like one.

Quote
and lets not forget even the most "Passable" of us  DO NOT Pass 100% of the time.

(remember theres always someone who knew you before transitioning)

again, fail
the most passable do pass 100% of the time, when you look, FEMALE, you look female...
people who used to know you means nothing, ive walked past, talked to, people i used to know, and who would love to mock me for it, but they have stared into my eyes, and not seen me... maybe others havent changed a lot, but i look so different nobody recognises me... and i KNOW its the case for others...
if you dont pass, then you dont pass 100%...
i guess it helps if you were a depressed social recluse with no friends eh?
R

Hi Rachael. I don't think I pass so well at least not without someone at least noticing something different or odd about my looks. But I still persist that attitude and personality is what done it for me. As for anyone remembering me from 4 years ago they never expressed it to me personally.

If I went back there now after 8 years before I started full time, I have again changed enough they may not even remember who the kid on the block was before transition. All here in Vancouver referred to me in the right pronouns, no problems there.

But It took me a while to get accustomed to the energy of the people here. I had a really hard time to even leave the apartment and get acclimatised to peoples energy out there. All I wanted to do was crawl into  a mouse hole and pull the hole in after me.

Passing I don't believe it's so much physical looks as much as it was personality and attitude. It all depended allot on how I projected myself to what I desire people to see me as. I dealt with a lot of people in one day when I was a social worker. Where I had lots of time to learn how to project to people what I wanted people to see and not even be aware of it. It is called (projected illusion) gee I hope you all understand what I am saying. I know there are some about this board that know.

Merry Christmas

Happy Holidays

Cindy


Cindy

Quote from: Rachael on December 25, 2007, 04:26:06 AMagain, fail
the most passable do pass 100% of the time, when you look, FEMALE, you look female...
people who used to know you means nothing, ive walked past, talked to, people i used to know, and who would love to mock me for it, but they have stared into my eyes, and not seen me... maybe others havent changed a lot, but i look so different nobody recognises me... and i KNOW its the case for others...
if you dont pass, then you dont pass 100%...
i guess it helps if you were a depressed social recluse with no friends eh?

This is a myth that needs to die.  Rachel, come here so I can x-ray you and expose you for being assigned male at birth.  Sorry for the dramataic example, but nobody passes 100%.  And with todays databases (not to mention famiyt & friends) nobody is in total stealth either.  They are both myths.  Absolutionist answers to our complex situations don't work.

One doesn't have to pass "100%" to have a full life.  The world is not black and white.  It is filled with greys.


I would advise people to do the best they can with what they've got.  Passability (I prefer the term blending) is more like a Bell curve.  The farther under the curve the better.  But remember this: Even natal women can and do get clocked.  If the world was so black and white that wouldn't happen.


Absolute answers (100% or bust) aren't reality based and only further fan the flames of fear and paranoia.  Most can and do blend.

Quote from: Marlene on December 25, 2007, 08:22:28 AM

Quote from: Rachael on December 25, 2007, 04:26:06 AMagain, fail
the most passable do pass 100% of the time, when you look, FEMALE, you look female...
people who used to know you means nothing, ive walked past, talked to, people i used to know, and who would love to mock me for it, but they have stared into my eyes, and not seen me... maybe others havent changed a lot, but i look so different nobody recognises me... and i KNOW its the case for others...
if you dont pass, then you dont pass 100%...
i guess it helps if you were a depressed social recluse with no friends eh?

This is a myth that needs to die.  Rachel, come here so I can x-ray you and expose you for being assigned male at birth.  Sorry for the dramataic example, but nobody passes 100%.  And with todays databases (not to mention famiyt & friends) nobody is in total stealth either.  They are both myths.  Absolutionist answers to our complex situations don't work.

One doesn't have to pass "100%" to have a full life.  The world is not black and white.  It is filled with greys.


I would advise people to do the best they can with what they've got.  Passability (I prefer the term blending) is more like a Bell curve.  The farther under the curve the better.  But remember this: Even natal women can and do get clocked.  If the world was so black and white that wouldn't happen.


Absolute answers (100% or bust) aren't reality based and only further fan the flames of fear and paranoia.  Most can and do blend.

I agree, Marlene. Well said. I would only remind us each one that the world is not only filled with greys, but it is filled with COLORS!!!

The world is vast and diverse and filled with wonders as well. We can, and should, each be one of those. To lead a full life is to simply pass and thrive as oneself. Whomever that person is.

I was always under the impression that for many, if not most, the basic goal is to be 100% themselves and to find some peace in that.

The beauty, or ugly or mediocre contests are simply contests and bear little or even NO resemblance to our day-to-day lives. It is there we thrive.

*smile* My $0.02, cheap at the price!!!

May each of us find our best possible and entire selves, now and in the coming year.

Hugs to all, and Merry Christmas,

Nichole

Some do pass 100% due to the threshold effect,
if you're close enough middle ground on all parameters for all observers.
The problem is that often a TS will think they're actually within this threshold
where there is no doubt, when others disagree. If others disagree, well
you're not passing 100%.
The mythical passsing 100% should leave no doubt NO MATTER WHO LOOKS AT THE PERSON!
This is indeed very very rare. I'd say that 99% of TS don't reach this level including me.


If I go to Japan, well I KNOW my passability will be shot to hell!!!
Because of height differential and the fact that when you skip culture,
what's considered female in physionomy or behavior will be so different.

This is an extreme case, but even in ONE big city, there are many different
public and I know that its with recent immigrants from some country
that I get read much more frequently (Instead of happening 1%, goes up to 5%!).

People of the same background and physionomy are least likely to read you, because
that's where you'll be closer to the group average for women. When people
say they pass 100%, its usually according to this frame of reference
(and this one is INDEED VERY POSSIBLE), since its very hard for me, or anyone,
to have the other point of reference and know for sure what people from
that other point of view think at all time.

marlene:feel free, that wont work, sorry to pee on your bonfire  but i actually doubt in my case, that would do much good... due to my problems, i dont know if that would show anything but how freakish i am under the skin...
If any TS person outed me out of jelousy, or spite, i would destroy thier life, thats no idle warning. (probably helps that i dont socialise with ts people, or interact with any irl.)

passing 100% IS possible, if you fit the parameteres as Kiera says, most ts's yeah, but whats 1%? how many thousand CAN?
R >

Quote from: Nichole W. on December 25, 2007, 08:35:33 AMI agree, Marlene. Well said. I would only remind us each one that the world is not only filled with greys, but it is filled with COLORS!!!

The world is vast and diverse and filled with wonders as well. We can, and should, each be one of those. To lead a full life is to simply pass and thrive as oneself. Whomever that person is.

I was always under the impression that for many, if not most, the basic goal is to be 100% themselves and to find some peace in that.

The beauty, or ugly or mediocre contests are simply contests and bear little or even NO resemblance to our day-to-day lives. It is there we thrive.

*smile* My $0.02, cheap at the price!!!

May each of us find our best possible and entire selves, now and in the coming year.

Hugs to all, and Merry Christmas,

Nichole

Thank you Nicole.  I knew as soon as I wrote that that "colors" would've been better, but I wanted to stay within the black/white analogy thing.  I also agree 100% should only be a goal of sorts and the real goal is to be the best possible *you*.

I think obsessing over "100%" is just plain counterproductive, not to mention arrogant.  I don't claim to pass "100%" and to tell you the truth I don't care.  I know I've been pretty lucky, but I don't dwell on what others think too much.  I'm happy, I have the life I've always wanted and that's all that counts.

Rachel: I'd love to stick around and debate you, but I can't.  My medical leave is up today and I have to go back to work later.  Yeah I have to work on Christmas.  It's all part of being a hospital worker.  So it's back to my real life, the one you claim doesn't exist.




Don't let others tell you what your future, or even the prospects of your future, are.  Break the cycle of pain and fear!  Get yourself fixed!  Then, a couple years from now, you'll look back and see those people for the prophets of doom they are and laugh.  And you'll be filled with a self-confidence, and self-esteem, from conquering your own fears and becoming whole in mind, body and spirit.  You can make your dereams come true!


See you in the real world.......

i claimed that when? lulz
R >

Quote from: cindybc on December 25, 2007, 07:37:36 AMWhere I had lots of time to learn how to project to people what I wanted people to see and not even be aware of it. It is called (projected illusion) gee I hope you all understand what I am saying. I know there are some about this board that know.

I think the old-fashioned witchy name for that is "glamour." Not in the modern fashion magazine sense, but the old-fashioned witchcraft sense.

Posted on: December 25, 2007, 01:44:06 PM

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Quote from: Marlene on December 25, 2007, 08:22:28 AMAbsolutist answers to our complex situations don't work.

One doesn't have to pass "100%" to have a full life.  The world is not black and white.  It is filled with greys.

May I just underline this--Marlene, you bring much-needed wisdom and maturity to this discussion. I could not agree with you more.

Human perception of gender is a complex sort of pattern recognition. Human minds form patterns upon raw perceptions, patterns which are then taken as "real." Nobody faces life with just raw perceptions, we all use our pattern-forming faculty to interface with the world. On the surface, gender perception is usually taken to be a simplistic binary while underlying it are many complex factors that get unconsciously added and summarized into a conscious binary output.

Our goal is to present enough of those factors in our favor, so that our desired gender becomes locked into the perceptions of others. This is what Keira referred to as the "threshold effect." Less-than-perfect physical features can be fudged because of the wide range of overlap between male and female phenotypes. As Marlene noted, "blending" is key. I see "blending" as making use of gender-coded ethology (patterns of behavior) to your benefit. I also feel that "vibes" are very important. The most important vibe of all is confidence... being comfortable with yourself... a vibe of naturalness and security in your comportment.

So if it seems hard at first, don't despair. Keep improving your output, and you can do it.

Posted on: December 25, 2007, 02:00:52 PM

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Quote from: Marlene on December 25, 2007, 11:46:37 AMI think obsessing over "100%" is just plain counterproductive, not to mention arrogant.

Just wondering, could it be a sign of self-hatred... internalized transphobia? It's wracked with fear and comes across as deeply insecure. I find that mindset unhelpful, because the only thing that worked for me was to deal with my fears until I'd mastered them and gotten over them. For that I needed to love and accept myself from within.

Hi Marlene
I like your terminology blending.

Merry Christmas

Happy Holidays

Cindy




Posted on: December 25, 2007, 02:14:29 PM

---

Thank you Hypatia
Fore once someone knows what I am talking about.

Cindy from the purple planet Addar. 

Quote from: Rebis on December 22, 2007, 11:01:24 PM
there will be no hiding.  The sunshine is ours as much as it is anybody else's

Oh Rebis, I wish that to be so true for all of us.   



Can one live as their target gender without passing?


My answer is no.



I hope everyone had a Happy Christmas. 


buttercup   

Hi Hypatia, I love your posting.

QuoteThe most important vibe of all is confidence... being comfortable with yourself... a vibe of naturalness and security in your comportment.

((((Bingo!!)))) we have a three cornered bingo. Again that can be accomplished by personality and character. And yes then the other three horsemen fall into place, Projecting, vibes, then blending can be achieved.

Cindy 

We all will not look like supermodels.

For the long term I think you need to have not too many disappointing encounters in this regard, otherwise it would be frustrating.  Unless one has a thick skin and a high tolerance level.

Best to all of us,


Chrissy

I think I could pass with body, it's just the face and my body hair I am worried about.

The voice is problematic for many.
This takes a lot of work and still not be the way you want it to be.
Sigh.

Chrissy

Wishing all many pleasant experiences as you transition.
This can be quite liberating, letting your true self become reality.
It is not an easy journey though for many of us. 

Hugs,

Chrissy