Yep, true @Lori Dee

As someone mentioned up thread, 'gender reveal' parties being a case in point, when they really mean 'sex reveal' according to the current TERF delineation.

It's a mess, isn't it?!

In some ways I quite like the idea of blurring the meanings more and more. Anything to undo this artificial distinction of 'biological sex.'

And if you are born into a body that you know is incongruent where does that idea come from? Not from pernicious 'gender ideologists' in a school, much as Donald Trump would like to tell you otherwise. In almost every other area of medical science the artificial division of body and mind has been debunked. Why not with gender?

If you have gender incongruence that IS part of your biology of sex.

Quote from: Tills on May 19, 2025, 09:01:26 AMIf you have gender incongruence, that is part of your biological sex.

But how do we help the general public to care enough or find the time to learn about something like the BNST?


~ Lilis 💗

Quote from: Lilis on May 19, 2025, 11:18:09 AMBut how do we help the general public to care enough or find the time to learn about something like the BNST?


~ Lilis 💗

I think that most people do not care about things that do not directly affect them. Most people do not know a transgender person because we are such a small segment of the population. There are people with open minds who see that transgender rights are human rights, and that affects them too.

That almost implies that the only way to educate the masses is through activism, but that is a two-edged sword. Some will outright reject and criticize, while others will think, "Hmm, they have a point." Education in schools is effective, but the Administration knows this and is making efforts to shut that down. This is also the reason behind book bans at school and public libraries.

That leaves the media, but it is difficult to get someone interested enough to pay attention if it is not something that interests them.

BNST.....oh boy, here we go.

I'll be back later to say "Saw that coming a mile away" 

I'm with Sephirah's suggestion lower down this thread that 'it's not can't, it's won't.'

Even on Susan's there are people using the phrase 'biological sex' as if it is a firm definition, but it is not, and explaining why it can't be involves more understanding of genetics and biochemistry than someone without the appropriate background can possibly hope to understand. The moment you start talking about stuff like 5α-reductase type 2 enzyme deficiency, people's eyes glaze over and for good reason.

I've a good grasp of why you can't define biological sex and I'm a good communicator, but while it's relatively easy to shatter most people's idea that there could be such a thing as biological sex by highlighting all the edge cases nature throws up, and why healthcare organisations from the UN downward have split sex and gender to account for that, that's not the issue, I think.

To me, the art of reducing discrimination of any sort has always belonged in the fields of compassion and familiarity. There's a lot to learn from the way the gay community patiently educated and recruited champions to make the general public aware that they were just like everyone else. They conducted that campaign on many fronts and although it took decades, they won in the end because they stayed focused.

We've won our campaign too, more or less, with Gen Z and late millennials. We have high profile trans musicians out there making our case every time they pick up a mic. And sure, we also have boomers fighting a rearguard action against any change from the status quo, but they'll only be around for so long.

Quote from: Lori Dee on May 19, 2025, 11:27:05 AMI think that most people do not care about things that do not directly affect them. Most people do not know a transgender person because we are such a small segment of the population.

I'm with this. We are a very small minority and the chances of the average person meeting someone who is trans is so small many never will. Yet it is in the nature of social media to amplify clickbait so it provides an echo chamber for people who have an issue with trans. They sound more influential than they are.

Do people in general care? In my experience, not really, and if they do have a problem, it's usually one of adjustment, not one of hatred. We won't swing this one overnight, but there's more sympathy out there than there is condemnation. Look in the wrong places though and it's easy to forget that. And sure things are not good in the US right now, but the current administration will not be there forever, so take heart.

Quote from: Tills on May 13, 2025, 10:46:24 AMBiology of sex is a given and unalterable binary fact
Gender is a choice

Thanks, Tills, Devlyn, and everyone who contributed thus far to this discussion. I'm still a neophyte regarding all things trans and have been following a post began by TanyaG regarding the ambivalence of the relationship between the lesbian and trans communities. Is this related to the TERF agenda or are they separate issues? As Sephirah noted, it seems people are choosing to hate and marginalize. Words like terminology, science, humanity, compassion, etc. have little to do with their choice.   

By chance I posted something else which is relevant to this thread (and maybe to how we should campaign and present ourselves although the last couple of paras are just me speculating about how I would negotiate. It's about something a Norwegian philosopher called Moen wrote about why gay people were misrepresented and I've rarely read anything on this subject put better.

Whatever, it's here and it's a real quick read.

Believe it or not, Moen's paper was about the ethics of sex work, but that guy really has a fine mind. If anyone wants the reference, I can post it.

Quote from: TanyaG on May 19, 2025, 01:15:08 PMWe are a very small minority and the chances of the average person meeting someone who is trans is so small many never will.

I wonder though.

I suspect this is the enforced view of older western peoples on their citizens. Go to parts of Asia and the Pacific and you see myriads of gender expressions, with people on a spectrum. Catch the MRT or Skytrain in Bangkok and you will see a rich kaleidoscope and you will certainly meet many transgendered people - and I'm not referring to the red light areas. Likewise in places like India, Fiji, and the Philippines - countries where there has long been a recognition of the fluidity of gender - you rub shoulders constantly with a myriad of gender expressions.

Older people (50+) in the west are so chewed up right now that they are forcing an absolutist binary agenda onto society. But most people (everybody?) are on a gender spectrum, especially the younger generations you mentioned. I'd say it's very much the exception for anyone aged 30 or under not to have met a transgendered person.

I've seen so much fluidity amongst youngsters but as David so memorably states in Schitt's Creek:

'It's more about the wine than the label.'

When I lived near Boston one of the guys at the local sub shop was Brazilian. They watched me transition and the Brazilian guy told me that his village back home had lots of T-girls (sic).

I'm living in Spain, a Catholic country. 95% Catholic in fact. Other than one old lady who made the sign of the cross when she saw my wife and I, and  another old lady I smiled at in the bank frowned at me and shook her head  sorrowfully, we've had no problems at all.

The problem only seems to be a problem in places that start with a "United". US, UK, UAE.....

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Tills on May 19, 2025, 02:17:26 PMOlder people (50+) in the west are so chewed up right now that they are forcing an absolutist binary agenda onto society. But most people (everybody?) are on a gender spectrum, especially the younger generations you mentioned. I'd say it's very much the exception for anyone aged 30 or under not to have met a transgendered person.

Gender is a cultural process of soft assembly and so expression varies around the world, that's for sure. Within the west though, it would be rare for most cis people to meet someone who was trans to whom they were not related, or weren't a friend of, more than a few times in their lifetime. I've been interested enough in this to write this post a while back, and it shows you're right, the younger you are, the more likely you are to have met someone who is trans if you live in the west.

Quote from: Tills on May 19, 2025, 02:17:26 PMOlder people (50+) in the west are so chewed up right now that they are forcing an absolutist binary agenda onto society. But most people (everybody?) are on a gender spectrum, especially the younger generations you mentioned. I'd say it's very much the exception for anyone aged 30 or under not to have met a transgendered person.

I know several younger than 50 folks who are fired up that it be an XX XY only world.   My daughter's fellow athletes being a loud portion of that sample. There also appears a pronounced difference in private and public speak.  This comes back to my strategy of a hearts and minds approach.  The bully pulpit has changed especially in Texas and the parts of fly-over country I am familiar with.       

Quote from: Devlyn on May 19, 2025, 02:52:51 PMWhen I lived near Boston one of the guys at the local sub shop was Brazilian. They watched me transition and the Brazilian guy told me that his village back home had lots of T-girls (sic).

I'm living in Spain, a Catholic country. 95% Catholic in fact. Other than one old lady who made the sign of the cross when she saw my wife and I, and  another old lady I smiled at in the bank frowned at me and shook her head  sorrowfully, we've had no problems at all.

The problem only seems to be a problem in places that start with a "United". US, UK, UAE.....

Hugs, Devlyn

Love this and that last sentence is brilliant lol - so true