The EHRC interim statutory guidance has dropped here:

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment

It is statutory guidance, which means that UK government, schools, businesses and everything from book clubs to large multinationals must, by law follow it.

It is completely devoid of any mitigating nuance, which is something that anyone with even a basic understanding of UK politics would have expected, given the history and statements of the leader of the EHRC, Baroness Falkner.

Headlines:

• There is an outright prohibition on trans people using facilities, change, bathrooms and all other facilities aligned other than their sex registered at birth: "trans women (biological men) should not be permitted to use the women's facilities and trans men (biological women) should not be permitted to use the men's facilities"
• It is also allowed to ban you from ALL AND ANY sex based services, even those aligned with your birth gender: "the law also allows trans women (biological men) not to be permitted to use the men's facilities, and trans men (biological woman) not to be permitted to use the women's facilities"
• You only have to make sure that there is a single facility for trans people somewhere, and you only need to do that where you have provided single sex facilities for both sexes. "where facilities are available to both men and women, trans people should not be put in a position where there are no facilities for them to use"
• Trans people HAVE TO BY LAW be banned from single sex groups of any type, of 25 people or more, for example if you have a women's rambling/hiking group' or a 'book/birdwatching club for men', they must by law exclude trans people. "Membership of an association of 25 or more people can be limited to men only or women only and can be limited to people who each have two protected characteristics. It can be, for example, for gay men only or lesbian women only. A women-only or lesbian-only association should not admit trans women (biological men), and a men-only or gay men-only association should not admit trans men (biological women)."

Non-stealth trans people can reasonably expect to be removed from virtually all single sex facilities groups and services in the UK such as toilets in shops, change rooms in gyms and clothing stores, hospital wards, book clubs, swim class, work bathrooms.

I speak in another thread about what this means for you and what I suggest you should do to survive in the UK. (Spoiler: Its get out if you can.)

There will be a public consultation on the full set of regulations. "The consultation will be launched in mid-May and last for two weeks". I would not expect it to be an honest consultation, given the very short consultation period, the history of transphobia  including high profile resignations from the EHRC on grounds of transphobia, from the statutory organisation that is supposed to be protectors of trans people, and the whole organisation is a complete stitch up with a history of only consulting with anti-trans groups, the final review is likely to be more restrictive than this, unless there is massive pushback in the meantime.

Stay safe out there people.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on April 27, 2025, 03:18:42 AMThe EHRC interim statutory guidance has dropped here: https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgmentIt is statutory guidance, which means that UK government, schools, businesses and everything from book clubs to large multinationals must, by law follow it.

Thanks Kira,

But the link seems broken:  This page could not be found


~ Lilis 💗

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fsearch%3Fkeys%3DInterim%2Bguidance

Try this. This is an overview and a link to the pdf of the full text.

Edit

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on April 27, 2025, 11:04:00 AMhttps://www.equalityhumanrights.com/media-centre/interim-update-practical-implications-uk-supreme-court-judgment?return-url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.equalityhumanrights.com%2Fsearch%3Fkeys%3DInterim%2Bguidance

Try this. This is an overview and a link to the pdf of the full text.

Just seeing this now, thanks.


~ Lilis 💗

I edited my reply because although I do think the ruling in the UK isn't good, and the political trajectory looks grim, we need to be a little bit careful not to panic? Or to cause panic?

I'm actively looking at moving from the UK, if I can, but want to do it in a measured way.

xx

Quote from: Tills on May 11, 2025, 12:22:48 AMI edited my reply because although I do think the ruling in the UK isn't good, and the political trajectory looks grim, we need to be a little bit careful not to panic? Or to cause panic?

I get that, I really do, but too much panicking is not the problem we have; the problem we have is that people are not taking the danger seriously enough and think 'that couldn't happen here', 'something will happen to stop this'... Its normalcy bias.

The situation is dire, people are fleeing the country. The trans women ex-High Court judge Victoria McCloud is fleeing the country and said the UK is not safe for trans people. Alarm is proportionate, as is emphatically pointing out danger, making emergency arrangements. To the extent that the act of subduing this response could be harmful. I think that is the biggest danger, the concept that everything will be OK if we just do nothing and hope.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on May 22, 2025, 02:34:49 AMThe situation is dire, people are fleeing the country.
[...]

You may well be right Kira.

However, now that the initial brouhaha has passed I find myself more overtly femme than ever in public and I haven't stopped using the ladies loos. No one has challenged me and when I mention the topic to ordinary people out and about they don't have a clue to what I'm referring. In fact, I've had people incredulous that I think it's 'a thing.'

I've no doubt that the UK's trajectory is a poor one, but the decision hasn't had any adverse effect on my personal life here yet. I do intend to relocate but talk of needing to flee is possibly a bit OTT.

xx

Quote from: Tills on May 22, 2025, 10:12:28 PMIn fact, I've had people incredulous that I think it's 'a thing.'

Most people seem to be unaware of what their governments are doing unless it directly affects them. Then they talk about it with others who might not have been aware. By the time enough people know and are upset about it, it is too late to do anything about it.

I am grateful for all of the activist organizations that scrutinize everything daily, and when something is wrong they jump on it right away... often before we even knew it was "a thing".

Quote from: Tills on May 22, 2025, 10:12:28 PMYou may well be right Kira.

However, now that the initial brouhaha has passed I find myself more overtly femme than ever in public and I haven't stopped using the ladies loos. No one has challenged me and when I mention the topic to ordinary people out and about they don't have a clue to what I'm referring. In fact, I've had people incredulous that I think it's 'a thing.'

I've no doubt that the UK's trajectory is a poor one, but the decision hasn't had any adverse effect on my personal life here yet. I do intend to relocate but talk of needing to flee is possibly a bit OTT.

xx

Well I am pleased for you, really I am.

I live in a cluster of three small towns. There have been several anti trans attacks here one included a gang attacking a lone trans person with fireworks.

There have been numerous confrontations and incidents in bathrooms and change rooms that I am aware of an likely many more that I have not. Just because they have not happened to you, doesn't mean you are not at risk.

The UK Supreme court judge has left the country and I heard her speak yesterday to say that the UK is not safe anymore for trans people.

I am quite comfortable telling people to see the danger and take action.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on May 22, 2025, 02:34:49 AMthe problem we have is that people are not taking the danger seriously enough and think 'that couldn't happen here'

Are you in the UK, Kira? You don't have a country listed. I travel a great deal both within and outside the UK and overall, my impression is that among people generally, attitudes towards trans are much the same as they were ten years ago. A friend has just come out and described the general reaction from her family as, 'What's the drama.'

I've blogged about the EHRC draft guidance here and my feeling is we're going to go through a period where a lot of rules are going to have to be thought about. The chairman of the EHRC, for whom I do not have much love, has said that when the guidance about trans people (for whom they also have responsibility) comes out, institutions are not going to enjoy what the guidance has to say, for which, read, 'This will cost you to implement, but legally, you must.'

Looking around Europe, the situation in most countries is similar to that of the UK. If anyone's thinking of moving anywhere, just about the only country with better deal for trans people is Eire, which has allowed self idenfication for years. All the religious countries, including Italy, Spain, Hungary, Romania and Poland, have issues or laws against LGBTQ, Germany isn't great, France is patchy, the Netherlands much like the UK, and Norway and Sweden are okay. Outside Europe? Don't even think of Africa. The US is a mess and in the last poll I saw a quarter of all adults believed being gay should be outlawed let alone being trans. India has a four hundred year history of discriminating against trans people and Pakistan is worse. Some of southeast Asia is sort of okay, but below the surface trans people are exploited and tolerance is less good than it would appear at first sight. There are no shining beacons of tolerance anywhere, just various degrees of 'not too bad.'

So my assessment as of now is while it's easy to get rattled, anyone thinking of bailing may end up jumping out of a warm frying pan into the fire. I've lived through all of the Section 28 fiasco and LGBTQ causes in the UK came out in better shape at the end of that than they went in. So I'm just going to wait this one out.

I am indeed in the UK. I live here full time at the moment, until I can get out.

Your appraisal of the UK is not consistent with most others. I think you have been lucky.

"UK plummets down European rankings for LGBTQ+ rights – after topping list just a decade ago"
https://www.thepinknews.com/2025/05/14/uk-lgbtq-ilga-europe-ranking-2025/

Human Rights Watch say: "Court Ruling Threatens Trans People"
https://www.hrw.org/news/2025/05/09/uk-court-ruling-threatens-trans-people

The Good law project talk about "The devastating impact of the Supreme Court judgment"
https://goodlawproject.org/the-devastating-impact-of-the-supreme-court-judgment/

and "UN experts sound alarm over trans rights in UK after Supreme Court ruling"
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/un-experts-sound-alarm-over-164034290.html

I have personally been present on multiple occassions in the last 2 weeks or so where trans people have been thrown out of facilities, surrounded and questioned.

Near me there have been multiple hate incidents including one gang attacking a trans person with fireworks.

The news is full of clickbait, Kira. If you're thinking of going, do it, but where are you going to go?

I've no problem accepting you wish to leave, Kira, none whatever, but please remember I also have a right to an opinion.

As someone who has been through visa applications twice (US to UK, then UK to Spain) I can tell you it isn't easy to get into a foreign country. Most require that you will be joining a spouse or partner who is already a legal resident.

It's also wildly expensive. We spent around  £11,000 in fees to get me into the UK in 2019. We were fortunately spared the Spanish fees because my wife was transferred to Spain and the company paid for our visas (and had a lawyer do all the legwork).

With the UK no longer in the EU, there aren't a lot of places to go, unfortunately.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 05:44:53 AMAs someone who has been through visa applications twice (US to UK, then UK to Spain) I can tell you it isn't easy to get into a foreign country. Most require that you will be joining a spouse or partner who is already a legal resident.

Hiya, Devlyn! That's the issue, that and the lack of any nation that's a beacon of trans tolerance and gauranteed to remain so. Memories of Section 28 suggest this is likely to be a bumpy ride and not one I'm charmed to be on, but I'm looking at Gen Z and late Millennial attitudes to trans overall and they're more favourable than any other country I'm seeing polls from. Those people are coming into government and some are already in it now, so personally, I'm not going to panic and instead I'm going to wait and see.

I'm looking at this from a different perspective than Kira and that's probably due to my age. In the seventies, if you'd told me attitudes to trans in the UK would have become as liberal as they are now, I simply wouldn't have believed it. We've made a lot of progress since I was a teen and I've a feeling this current situation may likely end up being like Section 28, which generated lurid headlines of support from homophobic groups but ended up in an apology from David Cameron after it turned out to have so little public support no prosecutions were brought.

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 05:44:53 AMAs someone who has been through visa applications twice (US to UK, then UK to Spain)

What's the situation in Spain like, Dev? The attitudes to cis women there are like they were in the UK in the fifties in some parts of Spanish society and I have a trans friend there who ended up moving to a wildly rural community where she did find people who were seriously tolerant.

In Barcelona it's great. Trans and non-binary people everywhere. The olds stare, but that's their problem.

If you go back and search, you can find posts of mine saying that my generation is the problem, and that when we all die off the world will be a better place.

Hugs, Devlyn

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 06:17:45 AMIf you go back and search, you can find posts of mine saying that my generation is the problem

We definitely agree on that, I've made a lot of similar posts too.

One of the issues here is that positive stories rarely make headlines. I am aware, for example, that one of the oldest, most traditional 'gentlemen's clubs' in London has a trans member. The average age of the membership is like, eighty, but the committee sat down and, so I hear, decided there was no rule against someone who joined as a man becoming a woman, and since everyone liked her, it was fine for her to remain a member. I worked forty years in the NHS and saw many trans people gravitating to the staff because attitudes were liberal to supportive, yet for most in this country, perceptions of NHS staff attitudes overall are being biased by one high profile legal case.

Quote from: kira21 ♡♡♡ on May 23, 2025, 03:21:12 AMThe UK Supreme court judge has left the country

I don't want to be a pedant but she wasn't and isn't a Supreme court judge.

As I mentioned, you may be right and I want to be supportive of you and others of us going through this. Meantime I'm living my life and haven't yet been challenged. I find generally that if I switch off 'the News' life is a whole heap happier

Perhaps that's ostrich mentality but it's also easy on the flip side to worry more than we might.

xx

p.s. I am actively pursuing the option of either Ireland and Thailand. But I find talk of 'needing to flee' a little exaggerated. Maybe in 4 years if and when Reform hold the reins of power.

Quote from: Devlyn on May 23, 2025, 05:44:53 AMAs someone who has been through visa applications twice (US to UK, then UK to Spain) I can tell you it isn't easy to get into a foreign country. Most require that you will be joining a spouse or partner who is already a legal resident.

It's also wildly expensive. We spent around  £11,000 in fees to get me into the UK in 2019. We were fortunately spared the Spanish fees because my wife was transferred to Spain and the company paid for our visas (and had a lawyer do all the legwork).

With the UK no longer in the EU, there aren't a lot of places to go, unfortunately.

Hugs, Devlyn

Very true.

As you have mentioned, Republic of Ireland is a clear option for us UK citizens, with the added bonus of EU entry if you apply for Irish citizenship after 5 yrs.

If you're over 50 and prepared to park c. $22000 USD in a Thai bank account then a Thai retirement visa is a serious proposition.