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why do christians say that every human being is a sinner?

Started by Natasha, May 01, 2008, 02:47:46 PM

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Natasha

that is not true. i think that christianity doesn't have enough trust in the power of goodness. labeling every person a sinner is the same as saying that wickedness is an innate trait, and i strongly disagree with that notion.
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RebeccaFog

I have no idea what their problem is, but I imagine that it has something to do with the first BORN humans being born outside of Eden.  I guess the idea is that the sin of the parents was passed on to their progeny.


Is that a word?  Progeny?
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Alyssa M.

Um ... because it's verifyably true.

Have you never sinned? Do you know anyone who hasn't? I sure don't.

Okay, there's the argument about infants, whether they have the capacity to actually sin. Fine. But by the time any person is 10 years old, they've got a pretty long rap sheet of sins, albeit probably "small" ones.

Humans are innately good and wicked, at least the ones I've met. Most Christians believe in the power of good to overcome sin; that's the whole point of the religion.

(Just to nitpick -- Christians actually belive that every human except one sinned.)

Quote from: O.E.D.progeny, n.
1. a. Offspring, issue, children; descendants. Occas.: a child, a descendant; a family.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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Pica Pica

was wondering when you'd return to the sport of bating christians.
'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Lisbeth

First of all, there are a variety of branches of Chritianity.  You are making a judgement that all Christians say that, just like some Christians make the judgement that all people are sinners.  Same over-generalization, isn't it?

Second, "sin" is a religious technical term.  Don't particular religions have the right to define their religious technical terms as they see fit?  The Catholic definition of "sin" is different from the Orthodox definition is different from the Evangelical definition and so on.  Why should you care about how they split their hairs?
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Pica Pica

'For the circle may be squared with rising and swelling.' Kit Smart
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Nero

This is one aspect of my religion I don't really subscribe to. I believe the original idea behind the Adam and Eve story has been tainted. Think it only meant to say that humanity is imperfect.
Not everybody sins. How the hell can a child sin?
To sin is to go against what you know to be right in your own heart.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Sandy

Ok, the exact reason that Christians say that every person is a sinner out of the chute, (Except one, but he wasn't completely human since he was part godstuff)  is because of that evil woman Eve.  Even though she was tempted by the Satan-snake beyond her ability to resist.  Additionally, after she became a sinner, she tempted Adam (by some accounts with her feminine wiles) and he too became a sinner.

Because of that, the landlord kicked them out of the garden, forced Adam to take up rake and hoe when before all things were given them.  And he caused Eve to suffer greatly during childbirth.  (I kind of wonder about that was since Eve didn't give birth until *after* they left Eden, so how could she know it was greater suffering?)

He also damned the snake and Satan too.  At least he was consistent.

And the landlord said that all their descendants would be damned as well because of their transgression.  I think that was kind of immature for a being that is supposed to be infinite and ageless.

It wasn't until he sent his son (which was himself) to earth to suffer and die did that sin get forgiven.  But only to the select few who accept the landlords son as their Saviour and are baptized in his name.  That is why children who are baptized are considered to be without sin as all is forgiven at that point.

Depending on which branch of Christianity you accept, those who came after Adam and Eve but before the landlords son are damned and are in hell.  Also those who have not heard of Christianity or reject it are also damned.  This from the guy that knows all and sees all.

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Kassandra on May 01, 2008, 03:52:08 PM
Ok, the exact reason that Christians say that every person is a sinner out of the chute, (Except one, but he wasn't completely human since he was part godstuff)  is because of that evil woman Eve.  Even though she was tempted by the Satan-snake beyond her ability to resist.  Additionally, after she became a sinner, she tempted Adam (by some accounts with her feminine wiles) and he too became a sinner.

Well, that's one brand of Christianity.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Alyssa M.

Take Bob Dylan's advice: Don't criticize what you can't understand.

Combine that with Jesus's advice: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

So if you want to bash Christians and Christianity without making an effort to really understand the deep issues that they have spent millenia contending with, then it takes some cheek to complain about some of them who bash transsexuals and other gender nonconformists without making the least effort to understand our condition.

Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Francis, Luther, etc. weren't exactly intellectual midgets, and their ideas can hardly be touched on in the context of a Web forum. If you have issues with the Christian notion of sin and actually want to understand it, you can start with Paul's letter to the Roman church. But it's not exactly light reading.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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Sandy

I was not taking issue with Christianity (well maybe a little), as much as I was attempting to answer the specific question I.E. "why do christians say that every human being is a sinner?"

I think everyone has had some passing taste of the bible and its stories.  The genesis stories are some of the most well known.  Also standard Christian dogma regardless of the denomination holds that Christ died for our sins and that everyone who accepts him as his personal Saviour is saved.

These are the things I explained, perhaps a bit casually, but that was what I was attempting to do.

I will not trot out my particular spiritual affiliation or the amount of spiritual searching I have done.  That is not germane.

I was not Christian bashing.  And I apologize if that is the way it came out.  It was not my intension.

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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Alyssa M.

Okay, Sandy, understood. I'll refrain from criticizing your spiritual journey. That is certainly not my intent. And I apologize for being perhaps a bit too prickly.

My post wasn't directed at you, though, or really anyone in particular. It was more of a general concern about how people often discuss deep things without maing any real effort to understand them. It's a pet peeve, and this is the type of discussion that can easily go that way.
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another.

   - Anatole France
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Laura Eva B

"Why do christians say that every human being is a sinner?"

Because there is not an ounce of "christianity" within them ....

Their "book" is used as a bigoted and predjudicial "sham" ....

It gives them an excuse to condemn anyone not like them (ha! ha ! ha !) to "eternal damnation", and is an excuse for them to mount a high horse and preach their inane vitriol.

I was born an innocent child .... but some so called "christians" would condemn me for my sexual orientation and gender identification, both of which I was born with too !

I don't need "salvation", I need principles to live by .... Jesus offered those guidelines using "God" as an allegory .... God doesn't exist, Jesus did, and I sooo hate organised religion twisting Jesus's words to preach hatred, genocide, and as an excuse to enrich themselves in "this world" ....  :(  ....

Laura
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Nero

Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 06:11:04 PM
"Why do christians say that every human being is a sinner?"

Because there is not an ounce of "christianity" within them ....

Their "book" is used as a bigoted and predjudicial "sham" ....

It gives them an excuse to condemn anyone not like them (ha! ha ! ha !) to "eternal damnation", and is an excuse for them to mount a high horse and preach their inane vitriol.

I was born an innocent child .... but some so called "christians" would condemn me for my sexual orientation and gender identification, both of which I was born with too !

I don't need "salvation", I need principles to live by .... Jesus offered those guidelines using "God" as an allegory .... God doesn't exist, Jesus did, and I sooo hate organised religion twisting Jesus's words to preach hatred, genocide, and as an excuse to enrich themselves in "this world" ....  :(  ....

Laura


Exactly. Jesus was never about hate. No matter who or what He was, he was first and foremost about love and kindness.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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tekla

Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Francis, Luther, etc. weren't exactly intellectual midgets

But being smart does not make you right.  And Paul, yuck.  As for Aquinas, how many angels can dance on the head of pin?

I think the concept of original sin (hence the need for baptism to wash it away) is just one more tool for the church to lure people in.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Laura Eva B

Quote from: tekla on May 01, 2008, 07:09:26 PM
Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Francis, Luther, etc. weren't exactly intellectual midgets
Apart from Luther they were people of their era of primitive knowledge .... Luther needs a whole seperate thread ... ??? ...

Laura
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Alyssa M. on May 01, 2008, 05:34:59 PM
Okay, Sandy, understood. I'll refrain from criticizing your spiritual journey. That is certainly not my intent. And I apologize for being perhaps a bit too prickly.

My post wasn't directed at you, though, or really anyone in particular. It was more of a general concern about how people often discuss deep things without maing any real effort to understand them. It's a pet peeve, and this is the type of discussion that can easily go that way.
Why should we waste our time thinking?    I trust all  opinions whether they they are based on knowledge, experience, intuition, or absolutely nothing.

    I'm pretty certain this thread is not meant to reveal all great truths.  It's not like the ideas of those people like Augustine have had any meaning or effect upon my life.  Even if I only graduated from the 3rd grade and spent every single night inhaling alcohol, my opinion would be just as valid as those "great" thinkers.


meant with love,

Rebis


Posted on: May 01, 2008, 07:43:36 PM
Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 07:15:58 PM
Quote from: tekla on May 01, 2008, 07:09:26 PM
Paul, Augustine, Aquinas, Francis, Luther, etc. weren't exactly intellectual midgets
Apart from Luther they were people of their era of primitive knowledge .... Luther needs a whole seperate thread ... ??? ...

Laura
why? what did Luther ever do - besides piss off superman?      :laugh:
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Laura Eva B

Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 07:47:46 PM
why? what did Luther ever do - besides piss off superman?      :laugh:
The Reformation ?

Please don't use humor to cover ignorance ...  :o ...

Laura
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RebeccaFog

Quote from: Laura Eva B on May 01, 2008, 07:57:07 PM
Quote from: Rebis on May 01, 2008, 07:47:46 PM
why? what did Luther ever do - besides piss off superman?      :laugh:
The Reformation ?

Please don't use humor to cover ignorance ...  :o ...

Laura
I'm fine with my ignorance.  I'm perfectly happy with it.  No one can know everything.  The things I don't know are known by someone else.      :)
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lisagurl

Objectively there is not a right or wrong. Morals are subjective. Morals change with culture and time so they are a moving target of the society. Why is sin different in different times and different parts of the world among different people.

QuoteIn philosophy, an objective fact means a truth that remains true everywhere, independently of human thought or feelings. For instance, it is true always and everywhere that '2 and 2 make 4'. A subjective fact is a truth that is only true in certain times, places or people. For instance, 'That painting is good' may be true for someone who likes it, but it is not necessarily true that it is a good painting pure and simple, and remains so always no matter what people think of it. If the painting could claim this, someone who thought the painting was bad would be completely wrong, in the same way someone who says the sun goes around the earth is wrong. So the reliability of mathematics is an objective truth, whereas the beauty of paintings is probably a subjective one
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