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So What's Wrong With This Picture?

Started by Suzy, May 06, 2008, 08:12:57 PM

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Suzy

This is a very old article, I believe from 1981.

The Man In The Mirror

I thought it would be an interesting discussion starter.  Please remember that in almost 30 years, times have changed.  Also, I am not interested in religion bashing, so please keep that out.

What issues do you see confused in this story?

What advances have we made in understanding GID?

What should counseling have provided?

What is still the same?

Do you share any of the same feelings?  How are you different?

Can we learn anything by this case study?


Kristi
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Sandy

Quote from: Kristi on May 06, 2008, 08:12:57 PM
This is a very old article, I believe from 1981.

The Man In The Mirror

I thought it would be an interesting discussion starter.  Please remember that in almost 30 years, times have changed.  Also, I am not interested in religion bashing, so please keep that out.

What issues do you see confused in this story?

What advances have we made in understanding GID?

What should counseling have provided?

What is still the same?

Do you share any of the same feelings?  How are you different?

Can we learn anything by this case study?


Kristi
Kristi:

Actually it seems that the point of the article was Sy's struggle with homosexuality, not transsexuality.  His diagnosis as a transsexual seemed incidental to what was written.  Even the time he spent in RLE seemed perfunctory.  More over his struggle with drugs seemed to take more of a toll on him than some of the homosexual exploits he had.

The advances from then to now, seem to be more of a wider acceptance of GID and sexual orientation being two different things.  Also more therapists are familiar with both issues.  Sy seemed to be searching for answers and stumbled on being transsexual as an answer.  I never got the impression he himself felt like a woman on the inside.  He seemed to want to be a woman to explain why he was homosexual.

Counseling should have gotten to the heart of Sy's problems and helped him to understand his homosexuality and possibly come to accept it and from there attempt to find a stable relationship.  Granted in the 80's stable gay relationships were rare.

I think many still struggle with being gay even with the internet.  Home life, peer pressure and other things can make a person still feel repressed and unable to come out to themselves or others.

No, I don't feel I share many of Sy's feelings.  Granted I am lesbian, but I am quite happy with my sexual orientation and feel no pressures to change.

We as the transgender community can learn much from Sy's story and others like him.  We can be symbols of hope to those who feel that they have no hope, that there is no where to go that they they are alone.  I will not discount the effectiveness of religion and spiritual growth, but they must be in an inclusive and accepting environment, not an exclusive and bigoted environment.  That can be very difficult to find.

-Sandy
Out of the darkness, into the light.
Following my bliss.
I am complete...
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Suzy

I think that the author still did not have a good handle on how vastly different it is to be trans compared to gay.  I also did not realize Johns Hopkins used to do SRS.
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noxdraconis

Personally, I think he wanted to become a woman for all the wrong reasons.   He thought that because he was unsuccessful as a man, that then maybe he should really be a woman.  IMHO, a transexual always is their inner gender, sometimes later realized, and they never really have to become that other gender, because it is already in them, its just the outside that does not match and that is what needs the change. 


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Suzy

Quote from: noxdraconis on May 06, 2008, 09:34:11 PM
its just the outside that does not match and that is what needs the change. 

That is true.  But if you notice, he does say that the therapist decided that very thing was true for him, and placed him as a candidate for surgery.

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Beyond

Quote from: Kristi on May 06, 2008, 08:12:57 PM
This is a very old article, I believe from 1981.

The Man In The Mirror

I thought it would be an interesting discussion starter.  Please remember that in almost 30 years, times have changed.  Also, I am not interested in religion bashing, so please keep that out.

What issues do you see confused in this story?

What advances have we made in understanding GID?

What should counseling have provided?

What is still the same?

Do you share any of the same feelings?  How are you different?

Can we learn anything by this case study?


Kristi

Did you post that question at Yahoo!Answers last night?

If so I answered there already.
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Suzy

Quote from: Beyond on May 07, 2008, 07:48:43 AM

Did you post that question at Yahoo!Answers last night?

If so I answered there already.

No I didn't.  Sorry.  Must have been someone else.  Why not post your answer here?

Kristi
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Beyond

Here's the question as posted on Yahoo!Answers:

QuoteFor people who suffer from transsexualism, what's wrong with this picture?

http://www.lastdaysministries.org/Publis...

This is a very old article, I believe from 1981.
What issues do you see confused in this story?
What advances have we made in understanding GID?
What should counseling have provided?
What is still the same?
Do you share any of the same feelings? How are you different?

Can we learn anything by this case study?


My response (which came after several others):

QuoteI think this is a perfect example of religion, ideology and desperation causing a gay man into extreme measures and self-denial. To tell the truth I also have doubts about the truthfullness of the story. For example:

"the residue of my old life - effeminate mannerisms, high voice, and all the results of female hormones - caused many people to mistake me for a girl."

What a pile of crap. He said he was effiminate since he was a child, way before hormones. And anyone who has transitioned can tell you that hormones do NOT change the voice of a male-to-female transsexual. Saying they do is an outright lie. As I said I have my doubts that this story is true, too many outlandish details in it, besides the obvious lies, for it to be true.

He is a gay man in denial.

This story is manufactured propaganda.

Transition is a highly effective treatment for transsexualism. But for it to work you have to have been born transsexual.

The Benjamin Standards of Care outline how transition is managed. You can download a copy here:

http://wpath.org/

Therapy is part of the process.

My personal experience is that transition worked for me. I have a sense of wholeness and inner peace I never had before as well as being comfortable in my own skin. Life is good.

Frankly I think the fact that these kinds of questions keep coming up says more about our society than it does about transsexuality. People have been medically transitioning for almost 60 years, this isn't something new. And yet religious ideology is still keeping much of our society from embracing the diversity that exists in this world. Diversity that, ironically from my point of view, was created by God. Dr Milton Diamond, one of the top gender experts on the planet said:

"Nature loves diversity, society hates it".

We need to move beyond fear and religious ideology to embrace diversity.
10 hours ago
  - Edit
  - Delete

Source(s):
me-Woman born transsexual


Sounds word for word just like your question.  Was this part of a college homework assignment or something?  Or maybe another forum member posted it to Yahoo?
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sneakersjay

The attitudes prevalent in the article explain why I denied my true gender during the 80s and beyond:  Only weird deviant homosexuals got sex-change operations and it was against God etc.  And since I was attracted to men...I'd have to be *gasp* gay...far easier to deny and play straight.

This article brought up a bunch of old memories that were not pleasant, from my college years and family beliefs.

All I can say is Thank You to those brave enough to transition during that time period and have the knowledge and understanding that you share kindly with those of us who finally can't deny ourselves any more.

Jay


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Suzy

Quote from: Beyond on May 07, 2008, 10:47:45 AM

Sounds word for word just like your question.  Was this part of a college homework assignment or something?  Or maybe another forum member posted it to Yahoo?

It does appear to be word for word like what I posted.  All I can think of is that someone saw it here and copied it to there.  I've never posted on Yahoo and don't even know how to view it.

This was an article I had read way back in college days.  I searched for it for a long time and finally found it.  So I thought I would post it here and see what everyone thought.  It was really memorable to me because, in the old printed version, it had a picture of him at work as a woman.  I was amazed that a male could be so beautiful.  It started something in me.  I'm sorry they do not have the picture.

Personally, I think telling this particular guy to transition and have SRS would be a lot like prescribing antibiotics to cure an amputation.  Wrong treatment for the wrong ailment.  Then it makes the jump that antibiotics are always wrong because the amputation did not grow back. 

Kristi
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Ms Jessica

Quote from: Kristi on May 06, 2008, 08:12:57 PM
I thought it would be an interesting discussion starter.  Please remember that in almost 30 years, times have changed.  Also, I am not interested in religion bashing, so please keep that out.

Alright, I'll bite.  Initially, my first read through made me think of religious propaganda.  There's just something about the way it reads.  There are details, but not enough details.  Not the right details, if that makes sense. 
Quote" I was eventually stationed in Hawaii. There I totally pursued darkness, immersing myself in Honolulu's gay scene. Many homosexuals are mature and responsible but I, like many others, was not. I got involved in minor prostitution, drug abuse, and the sometimes dangerous life of the street."

The red flag that went off for me was the "dangerous life of the street".  It just sounds like a badly written day time soap.  What was so dangerous about the life of the street?  It wasn't life on the street-- Sy was stationed in Hawaii.  Not stranded or abandoned.  He had a place to live that was provided by the military.  So what was he doing in addition to drugs and prostitution that was so dangerous, or at least sometimes dangerous? 
Try deconstructing the rest of the quote.  What's wrong with this picture? 
Many homosexuals are responsible, but many are not?  Which is it?  Is it an even split?  Upon what is this assertion based?  We're not given even a hint of personal experience by which such a judgment could be made. 
We know that Sy used drugs, but we're never told what drugs.  Were you addicted to drugs, you might say "I was addicted to heroin".  You wouldn't say "I was addicted to drugs".  You might not always call it heroin, you might say "the drugs", but I don't think you'd ever just say "drugs".
He was involved in minor prostitution?  What does that mean?  Solicitation of minors?  Or is he trying to make a distinction between major prostitution?  What does that mean?  Is minor prostitution a less serious crime?  Was he the prostitute or the john?  Was he ever arrested? 

QuoteI threw away my female hormones and stopped buying women's clothes.
He was on hormones, but he doesn't mention any of them by name.  They are simply "female".  I mean, what other hormones was he going to be taking?  People just don't talk like that.  You might say "I threw away my hormone pills" or "I threw out my prescription hormones" but I don't think you'd say "I threw away my female hormones". 

We're either dealing with Really Bad Writing, or Really Bad Propaganda.  Or both.  <shudder>  There's too much missing information and an overuse of cliche phrases.  The lack of details makes the account seem poorly thought out, or at least poorly written.  The use of cliche sounds too forced when a person is telling a story about themselves, especially something like this.  Maybe I'm being too critical, nitpicking over word usage, but the account just doesn't sound authentic to me.   

Maybe it's editing.  Maybe a lot of info got chopped to keep the story short.  But writing a short article doesn't mean that you gloss over major events.  And there are a lot of issues in Sy's life that just seem to be treated as though they were no big deal.  This strikes me as the omission of the fiction writer who doesn't know enough about his subject.  The author doesn't realize he's leaving out the details of a troubled life that would give it a stronger echo of truth, a feel of authenticity.   All the things that are missing could make the story more powerful; their omission makes it weaker.  He did drugs.  No big deal.  Prostitution?  Fugedaboutit.  What is the deal with this guy?  Sy treats his RLE as no big thing, but we all know how big a deal it is just to go to the store dressed up.  On hormones and everything, you don't just go get a job and live as a woman.  It's very stressful (and difficult), which is why it's required before SRS.  The way Sy treats it as a non-issue makes the account ring hollow to me.  There's no information about how hard things were during this phase of his life, and you know there'd be at least one incident that would stick out-- some bit of discrimination, something that would make it sound like all this had happened to a real person.  "Life was really hard for me while I was waiting for surgery.  One night when I went out to the ......."  I don't know, maybe I'm just being too critical. 

There is some info that seems to be correct-- enough to make the story seem plausible.  Johns Hopkins did indeed have a gender identity clinic (one of the first in the nation from what I can tell).  Unconfirmed (by me anyway) rumors on the internet seem to indicate the clinic shut down in 1979 which is in keeping with Sy's timeline (as far as I can tell).  Johns Hopkins still has some ongoing work through their psych unit, though.  I'm not aware whether this is a reincarnation of the GIC.  The story seems to contain at least an element of facts such as the closure of the clinic, but I'm still skeptical. 

QuoteWhat issues do you see confused in this story?
The very marked confusion between being gay and transsexual is the most obvious.  Interestingly, it's also one of the things that strikes me as being "off" in this story.  Regarding the portrayal of the professionals, I realize that even a few decades ago the prevailing thought was that all transsexuals were gay.  So that's not off.  It's the author's description of himself that strikes me as being unusual.
I at least get the sense that the author is gay, but I never got the sense that he was a transsexual.  His decision to transition was not motivated by the interior feeling of being a woman, and wanting to change his exterior so that he could be accepted for the person he is/was.  He wasn't unhappy as a male because he felt like he was a woman.  He was unhappy as a male because he was unsuccessful as a male.  Maybe someone could correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that health professionals at least understood enough about homosexuality in the late 70's to understand when a person was "just gay" and not also a transsexual.  As I understand it, his therapists might have mistaken him for being gay were he a transsexual, but they wouldn't have mistaken him for being transsexual simply because he is or was gay.  I just don't believe that he could have been misdiagnosed in this sense.  As I've said, this is where I'm making some assumptions about health care professionals in the late 70s.  It's possible that someone could be so horribly misdiagnosed but I just don't find the sequence of events to be probable.  It would be more believable if the author always had felt himself to be a transwoman and was diagnosed as being gay, too. 

Quote from: Kristi on May 07, 2008, 11:39:15 AM
Personally, I think telling this particular guy to transition and have SRS would be a lot like prescribing antibiotics to cure an amputation.  Wrong treatment for the wrong ailment.  Then it makes the jump that antibiotics are always wrong because the amputation did not grow back. 
I couldn't agree more.  I think that the article is attempting in a not-so-subtle way to present that type of illogic as a thesis.  I'm becoming more convinced that it's really just propaganda masquerading as someone's real life tale of woe.  I don't think it would be the first time that people were misled by a little truth padded with a lot of lies.  Everyone gets a dozen "urban myth" emails every week that fall under that category. 
I hadn't intended to write so much.  Hopefully it's somewhat coherent. 
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Audrey

it seems that he has many other issues to work out and maybe thought being a woman was the answer to it all.  I am thankfull to not have had to go through that internal struggle regarding transistion.  I know it was right for me as my depression has lifted since making the change.

A
  •  

noxdraconis

QuoteQuote from: noxdraconis on Yesterday at 22:34:11
its just the outside that does not match and that is what needs the change. 


That is true.  But if you notice, he does say that the therapist decided that very thing was true for him, and placed him as a candidate for surgery.

Sorry if I was unclear in my previous post. The main point I was trying to make that he was not a transexual because he was not already a woman inside.  He says that since he was a failure as a man, he should be a woman.  Rather, if he were really ts, the reasoning would have been "I feel like a woman inside.  I wish to live as a woman and have others recognize me as a woman with all the privilages and hardships that such a societal classification would grant."  I was just trying to say that he was not trying to make the outside match the inside; he was trying to change his inside feelings as well.


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Tanya1

Totally unrelated to the topic, but I like Kristi's hair in her profile  ;)
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Ell

Quote from: Beyond on May 07, 2008, 10:47:45 AM
Here's the question as posted on Yahoo!Answers:

For people who suffer from transsexualism, what's wrong with this picture?

http://www.lastdaysministries.org/Publis...

This is a very old article, I believe from 1981.
What issues do you see confused in this story?
What advances have we made in understanding GID?
What should counseling have provided?
What is still the same?
Do you share any of the same feelings? How are you different?

Can we learn anything by this case study?

i think the person who lifted Kristi's post and then pasted it in Yahoo ought to be straddled and, oh nevermind.

oh wait, that means they lifted it from right here, or could be here now, lurking in the shadows. how many other threads are stolen whole cloth and then palmed off as their own original thought?
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Shana A

Quote from: ell on May 08, 2008, 11:49:07 PM
i think the person who lifted Kristi's post and then pasted it in Yahoo ought to be straddled and, oh nevermind.

Now Ellie, who's going to punish them??  >:D

Seriously though, it isn't kosher in my book to lift and publish other people's writings without permission of the author.

I didn't read the entire article, it wasn't very well written. My take is that it's the typical "trans-story" for what therapists/gatekeepers wanted to hear at that time.

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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gothique11

It seems to be that this person was expecting that transitioning would "fix" everything in his life -- like a sex change magically makes everything wonderbar with happy trees and talking flowers.  >:D  (Okay, maybe with some of the pain killers for a bit, but not after.)

The story seems to focus on him searching for a "cure" for all of life ills, and thus, it concludes that his cure was religion. And, as mentioned previously, there are issues of homosexuality and not coming to terms about it, as well as an over focus on sex and needing attention.

Obviously, most people I know who are transitioning aren't doing it to get laid or to get attention, or are under the delusion that everything in their life is going to magically change and everyone is going to love you.

Of course, there are benefits to transitioning for someone who is truly transsexual, and there are improvements in terms of confidence which impacts your over all life, etc. -- but surgery ain't no magic pill.

In the mean time, it's only a month until my GRS. It's great! I'm gonna get laid at least four times a day, everyone is going to love me, and I'm going to be famous and make lots of money. I'll have no life issues at all! I'll also evolve to have flying powers and, oh, be able to shoot lightening out my fingers and have Jedi powers to boot. I'm excited about that!  >:D


--natalie
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Ms Jessica

Quote from: gothique11 on May 09, 2008, 03:17:34 PM
In the mean time, it's only a month until my GRS. It's great! I'm gonna get laid at least four times a day, everyone is going to love me, and I'm going to be famous and make lots of money. I'll have no life issues at all! I'll also evolve to have flying powers and, oh, be able to shoot lightening out my fingers and have Jedi powers to boot. I'm excited about that!  >:D
--natalie
LOL-- I want Natalie's doctor! 
Seriously though, congrats Natalie!  You must be so excited! 
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Maddie Secutura

My line of thinking was that it has to be some sort of propaganda.  Someone the whole "I'm gay and a failure as a man means I should be a woman" thing seemed rather wrong.  I mean I'm glad the guy was able to find a solution but man did he go down all the wrong paths along the way. 


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Suzy

Quote from: Zythyra on May 09, 2008, 12:36:41 PM
Quote from: ell on May 08, 2008, 11:49:07 PM
i think the person who lifted Kristi's post and then pasted it in Yahoo ought to be straddled and, oh nevermind.

Now Ellie, who's going to punish them??  >:D

Seriously though, it isn't kosher in my book to lift and publish other people's writings without permission of the author.


I think Ellie was volunteering. 

Seriously, I think the whole issue was that of the abuse.  I wonder how many of those having regret now were actually victims of abuse as children?  No way of knowing, but just a thought.

Kristi
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