Hey Dennis -

I'm directing this question mostly towards you, but if anyone else has any info, feel free to jump in! 

I was doing some searches today of past posts here and happened to run across an OLD one (from '05, I think) you had written regarding your having been on a low dose of T for 9 months before your doc gave you the OK to increase.  Without telling me the specific dosage of course, can you give me an example of how much of a lower-than-typical dose you were on?  Like, was it half the dose, or? 

I ask because I started T yesterday (yeah!), and my doc started me at around 1/2 of what he considers a typical monthly dose.  He thinks that'll be enough to do the trick, and that, if not, we could increase at some point in the future.  So... if you don't mind answering:  When you were on a low dose, was it around half the typical dose?  Or lower?  Or? 

I've waited so long to start T (I'm not much younger than you).  I'm concerned that I won't see changes from the lower dosage.  And I don't have another appointment with him for 4 months. 

Any thoughts?  When you were on a low dose, did you have ANY of your desired positive changes?

Ben

Hi Benjamin,

There is a difference between a low dose and a higher dose with a larger gap between the injections. I think the best way to go about your situation is to see how it goes on the lower dose, if bleeding does not stop and/or you don't notice any changes at all then talk to your doc about changing to a higher dosage.

I don't know if you can do this where you live but everytime I have blood tests done I go to the surgery and get a copy of them for myslef (I have done this from the beginning) as well as my Endocrinologist so I am keeping an eye on my levels as well as her. She is happy about me doing this and any worries I have I discuss with her when i see her. At the moment (since switching from Sustanon to Nebido, Nebido injections only come in one size and it 4 times the largest amount available in Sustanon but with larger gaps between injections) my T levels are now way too high but this can be counter-productive because although my T levels are through the roof my oestrogen levels have also shot up since even before I was on T. This is because the pituitary gland coverts/breaks down excess (someone correct me if I am wrong here) testosterone to oestrogen because an excess amount of any hormone in the body can be dangerous.

Hope this is of some help.

John

It was a quarter of normal for 3 months, and gradually increased every three months. It was frustrating, but I think in the end, it helped my voice settle in a bit better. It more mimics natural male puberty that way, and some guys do get these voices that sound like they've been puffing helium. Not all guys who start full dose get that, but as a singer, I wanted to lower my risk as much as possible.

My voice still did change on the low dose, as did my facial fat distribution and muscle growth, so there were changes. The most frustrating was that it took 7 or 8 months for the monthly visitor to go away. And by then I was long using men's rooms.

Dennis

Den - Can you choose to go on a lower dose?

Quote from: Nero on May 18, 2008, 06:22:51 PM
Den - Can you choose to go on a lower dose?

Yep, if your doctor's cool with it, I'm sure you could.

Dennis

Ben, estrogens can be formed in other places in our bodies and as a result of testosterone. The reason is that we don't produce enough E to prevent problems without our organs. Prehysto this isn't an issue but post hysto you must either suppliment with E or have a high enough T dose for your body to convert enough to avoid bone loss.

Most people are fine on the standard dose to start. Starting a low dose is rarely effective and is often a sign of the doctors lack of knowledge or comfort. That said if you want to start or remain low that is your call. Personally the evidenece I have read argues for a higher initial dose but that is still theoretical. Before hysto you are mainly looking to see how much you need to have the effects you need. I wouldn't bother with anything below a half dose, if you respond well you are most likely intersexed, if you don't and need more that is normal. If you need more and have problems with your E2 levels you probably have a problem with to much of the conversion hormone and should take a suppressant. If you have problems with your hemocrit just give blood more often. Aside from eating properly and working out you will most likely be fine.

In terms of drugs ask your doctor to tell you what ester you are being given and then look it up. If it last 20 minutes or 3 weeks, the key is in listening to your body and being stable. After a while you will know when you are low and that is your best clue in to your levels. Never push yourself to say wait 2 weeks between shots on a med that is cleared in 10 days for example because you will just cause ups and downs. You can have a lower or higher dosage then normal without that mattering much in terms of how often you need the shot. The only factor in time between shots is what the drug is esterfied with. For example depo in 11 days, ethanate is 15 days, sustainon is 3 weeks and pure T is about 20 minutes to 4 hours.

->-bleeped-<-boy

Quote from: Snowdoggy on May 18, 2008, 01:55:42 PM
Hi Benjamin,
There is a difference between a low dose and a higher dose with a larger gap between the injections.
John

    Interesting.  Can you explain more?  My injections are weekly.

Quote from: Dennis on May 18, 2008, 04:25:36 PM
It was a quarter of normal for 3 months, and gradually increased every three months. It was frustrating, but I think in the end, it helped my voice settle in a bit better. It more mimics natural male puberty that way, and some guys do get these voices that sound like they've been puffing helium. Not all guys who start full dose get that, but as a singer, I wanted to lower my risk as much as possible.

My voice still did change on the low dose, as did my facial fat distribution and muscle growth, so there were changes. The most frustrating was that it took 7 or 8 months for the monthly visitor to go away. And by then I was long using men's rooms.
Dennis

    Dennis, thanks for filling me in.  That's what I had been wondering.


    ->-bleeped-<-boy, thanks for the thorough info! 

->-bleeped-<-boy, does your info about needing E post-hysto refer to just a hysto or also ovaries removed as well?  I didn't think the uterus supplied E.  Just trying to clarify (I'll be scheduling my hysto soon!)

Jay

What I meant about the difference between the actual dosage and the gap between doses is that the quantity in each vial varies between what type of T your are on and what the correct period between each dose is. I don't know what country you are living in or what type of T your are taking but I have never known anyone having injections weekly which seems to be very short time between injections. I am having large dose injection now every 10-12 weeks but on what I used to be on it was every 2 to 3 weeks but the actual dose with each injection is 4 times the amount. What I mean is it is hard to tell if the dosage is low without knowing what you are taking and how often you are taking it. Another thing I don't know is whether the effects of hormones (say T for example) vary comparing with the brand/manufaturer. From what I have seen some are only one ester but some can be 2, 3 or 4 different esters.

Hey ->-bleeped-<-boy, thanks for all the info. Yeah, I'm interested in a lower dose cause I don't want to end up with the 'squeak 'effect Den's talking about. And my voice is fairly high so I might.
Also don't want to get too hairy but don't know if that has anything to do with the amount of T in the body or not.

QuoteAlso don't want to get too hairy but don't know if that has anything to do with the amount of T in the body or not.

It has more to do with genetics than T.  I am pre-T, but I have more body hair than a good number of the bio males I know (think hairy gut, chest, and legs), and both my parents are hairier than most of their parents (I have normal female T level).  If you want to know what to expect with respect to body hair,  look to your family (father and grandfathers) to see what they have in terms of hairiness.  T will make you more closely resemble them in that way. 

Quote from: Snowdoggy on May 20, 2008, 03:06:04 PM
What I meant about the difference between the actual dosage and the gap between doses is that the quantity in each vial varies between what type of T your are on and what the correct period between each dose is. I don't know what country you are living in or what type of T your are taking but I have never known anyone having injections weekly which seems to be very short time between injections. I am having large dose injection now every 10-12 weeks but on what I used to be on it was every 2 to 3 weeks but the actual dose with each injection is 4 times the amount. What I mean is it is hard to tell if the dosage is low without knowing what you are taking and how often you are taking it. Another thing I don't know is whether the effects of hormones (say T for example) vary comparing with the brand/manufaturer. From what I have seen some are only one ester but some can be 2, 3 or 4 different esters.

I'm taking depo-testosterone.  My doc gave me the option of doing the shots monthly, bi-weekly, or weekly.  But he suggested weekly might work best for me because of a medical condition I have which has a history of flaring up when hormone levels spike or dip too quickly.  So taking smaller doses, but more often, might prevent spiking.  Anyhow, doing it weekly, I'm taking 1/4 the monthly total each week.  (Did that make sense?  This is hard to explain without being able to say the actual dosage amount.) 

But, the bottom line is that the doc told me that my "grand total" of mg's per month is around 1/2 of the "grand total" that he normally starts most of his patients on.  I'm sort of bummed about starting at a lower dose than most patients, but then again, after only a week of being on T, my voice is already changing a bit.  So, we'll see....