When a female child (16-18 year old) develops GID and Body/Gender Dysphoria as a result of being abused...

When that child develops an overwhelming desire to become "male" as the solution to their anxiety from the abuse...

When the TG community tells here it's OK to want to be male, and support her efforts to transition...

Does anyone care that the REASON is the abuse?  Wouldn't the "cure" be to help this victim through her tragedies, rather than escape into a false-hope of having a male persona as the solution to her problems?

In essence, if the CAUSE of GID/Dysphoria is due to the abusive way a child is raised, shouldn't the focus be on helping the child, rather than supporting transition?

Also - the child doesn't want to attend rape counseling because they want to AVOID the past.  They don't want to deal with the pain, and instead run from it - by becoming male...

Thoughts?

Quote from: JackieR on June 02, 2008, 02:20:05 PM
When a female child (16-18 year old) develops GID and Body/Gender Dysphoria as a result of being abused...

When that child develops an overwhelming desire to become "male" as the solution to their anxiety from the abuse...

Depends on whether or not the GID is caused by the abuse. Trans people often have histories of abuse, but most also have gender difficulties before they are abused.

QuoteWhen the TG community tells her it's OK to want to be male, and support her efforts to transition...

Does anyone care that the REASON is the abuse?  Wouldn't the "cure" be to help this victim through her tragedies, rather than escape into a false-hope of having a male persona as the solution to her problems?

You sound pretty well certain of the 'REASON.' How did you become so very certain of the source of the gender difficulty? And you're putting a lot of weight on the opinions of TG people that maybe should be looked for elsewhere.

QuoteIn essence, if the CAUSE of GID/Dysphoria is due to the abusive way a child is raised, shouldn't the focus be on helping the child, rather than supporting transition?

Of course PTSD and other psychological difficulties that arise from abuse, rape, warfare, accidents and other traumatic events require treatment. But again, you seem awfully sure of a 'cause.' Is there evidence that has been established that the abuse is a 'cause' or is that a supposition?

QuoteAlso - the child doesn't want to attend rape counseling because they want to AVOID the past.  They don't want to deal with the pain, and instead run from it - by becoming male...
Thoughts?

My thoughts are that if the child was abused he should have rape counseling and support groups where he can be in an environment and among other survivors who understand the trauma and have to one degree or another narratives to share with this person.

But, I am also aware that 'causes' for things may be harder to determine than the simple assumption or wish that the cause is one thing or another. The best treatment models determine if there are co-occurring problems that are enmeshed and the treatment that works best is usually one that focuses on both of the difficulties at the same time and with a pretty even-handed weight. There is reams of evidence to show that.

If someone has GID then that should also be addressed. But, it's probably best to encourage the person to work with a gender therapist, one who has been trained to evaluate gender issues specifically to at least rule-out the gender issue before deciding that the gender issue is caused by the sexual abuse.

Perhaps that is the cause, but discovering it on some study and the narrative of the person himself is going to work better than simply deciding that the source is this or that.

All my best to both you and your loved one.

Nichole

There are a number of possibilities which masquerade as TSism, but a qualified therapist/psych experienced in gender issues should be able to determine a correct diagnosis.

~Kate~

Thanks Nichole and Kate,

She's currently in therapy, but having a difficult time with it.  We're looking for a specialist (or just someone with EXPERIENCE) who can first isolate if the problems are just a coincidence or related.  Currently, she's just labeled as "possibly" GID and dysphoric, with no specific cause.

Nichole,
My "assumption" is purely based on speculation; however, there is considerable merit.   For example the initial symptoms when the abuse was reported to have began (several years ago) were heightened levels of anxiety, panic attacks, and severe academic issues.  At that time (many years ago), the "cause" for those symptoms was stated as "unknown".

Roughly a two years a ago (age 16), she started brining up disturbing issues about a fear of sex being exceptionally painful, though she claims to be a virgin.  Her obsessions and elevated concerns continued to increase as she went "emo" for about a year, and then felt the overwhelming need to become "male" as a SOLUTION to all her problems.

Just last month was when I discovered that Child Protective Services (CPS) had gotten involved when the abuse was somewhat new (years ago), but was unable to facilitate any resolution because there was no proof and... you know the drill - when a girl accuses the person that's paying the bills, mom and the child worry more about becoming homeless, and try to "fix" the problem on their own.    Well, last month was when I was told by the mom of the "abuse cover-up", and that now the child wants to just avoid the abuse and become "male" as her self-decided solution to how she was raised.

What confuses me most is the "join our club" mentality she (the child) raves about.  How she's found a "safe" place to belong - the TS/TG community, and how she now has an insatiable desire to be a "real" member of such a caring comunity.   She's drawn to the sensationalism of recent FtM's on Oprah and Barbara Walters, and wants to be in the same supportive spotlight.  She talks of TS/TG, just as Punks, Emos, Goths, Nerds, Prep'ies, and Jocks and all the other cliques unite as a members-only group.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with finding your "group", but it seams improper when the basis for joining a group is because your a victim of abuse.  Like becoming a cop because you seek power to "get even" because of what was done to you, sure, becoming a cop is good, but doing it for the "wrong" reasons seams inappropriate.

In essence, should *I* support a girl to become a man "IF" the basis of her desire/need is to run and hide from childhood abuse and ineffective upbringing?   What happens when she's confronted with the reality that it's NOT a solution?  Especially when she's already voiced suicide as an option to escape.   I'm leaning towards helping her deal with the psychological pain, and advising caution towards jumping into HRT and other major moves in her life, especially when she feels that living as a man is a step she want's to skip - she just wants to "be" a man.

Keep in mind that in theory, therapists won't just hand out HRT. She has to be diagnosed with GID as well as being "in therapy" for at least six months (I believe for female-to-males) before she even qualifies. The diagnostic "system" is designed to weed out people who aren't transsexuals, but I'll admit it's not a perfect system, nor does everyone follow it. But I'd imagine her being a minor would create even more hesitation and caution with most professionals.

Should you support her? I can't really tell you. She's a minor, and if you're responsible for her well-being, it's up to you to make some difficult choices for her. I 'spose if it were me, I'd try to find a therapist whom both she AND I trusted to objectively help her figure things out. But she's going to want someone who tells her what she wants to hear, and I'd imagine you'll want someone who sympathizes with your insights, sooooo.... it's gonna be tricky!

But I AM really glad you're posting here and asking these things, truly trying to figure out what's best for her. I hope we can support YOU while you're looking for answers

~Kate~

Personally I think you should be supportive of the person no matter what. They are hurting - whether it be from gender identity issues or abuse it does not matter.

Your argument could have merit but it can work both ways. Abuse can bring gender identity issues to the fore. When people with gender identity issues are stressed they desire is to go to the place they are most comfortable, which is their true gender identity.

If they are a transsexual then certainly she will rave about 'the club'. Who else can understand it better than other transsexuals? Where else can she go that she won't be discriminated against? Also not many other groups will have as much empathy for pain and suffering, we can be very supportive people. I think you should realise that hanging out with transsexuals can not make someone a transsexual, it does not work that way. We won't corrupt them. At least if will give a place to talk about things with similar people where she can compare notes. If she is not a transsexual then this may help her come to that conclusion.

If she wants to transition then I would encourage her to pursue proper channels rather than try to stop her. This could force her onto the back market. Through the correct channels she will be 'screened' and counselled before being allowed any body changing hormone therapy. If she is not a transsexual then it will be picked up on at that stage.

It sounds like you really care for them and want to help. But I don't think you are in a position to diagnose them or know what treatments would be best. You have already assumed the 'cause' is the abuse when there might be no cause (I'm transsexual and there is no reason for it as far as anybody knows any more than there is a reason for you to be the gender you are). What you do know for sure is that they are distressed. Focus on them and not the problem. Keep and open mind, be there for them, encourage them to do things right by not self medicating etc. Some things you can't fix and it does not sound like you are equipped to fix it. So the best you can do is just be supportive, be an ear if they want it, encourage them to get help. That's all you can do and it is more than a little.

All the best. They are lucky to have your support.


 

Corrections a member pointed out to me:

Quote from: Kate on June 02, 2008, 03:54:25 PMShe has to be diagnosed with GID as well as being "in therapy" for at least six months...

Apparently it's three months for everyone. The "True Selves" book mentions something about how many therapists require six months for F2Ms I think though.

QuoteShould you support her? I can't really tell you. She's a minor, and if you're responsible for her well-being...

I didn't read carefully. I thought they were still a minor. Disregard my minor-specific suggestions, lol... and my use of "her" pronouns. As an adult, he's a HE to me if that's how he identifies

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on June 02, 2008, 05:30:52 PM
Corrections a member pointed out to me:

Quote from: Kate on June 02, 2008, 03:54:25 PMShe has to be diagnosed with GID as well as being "in therapy" for at least six months...

Apparently it's three months for everyone. The "True Selves" book mentions something about how many therapists require six months for F2Ms I think though.

There is also the additional criteria that

Quote from: soc-v6
The patient has made some progress in mastering other identified problems leading to
improving or continuing stable mental health

A therapist won't prescribe hormones (or anything else) if theres concerns that they're refusing to tackle other problems (i.e. the abuse). And the three months is a minimum, Kate's right that some therapists require longer.
Gender transition is a big big thing, and therapists won't support the decision if they have doubts about the child's gender dysphoria.

Quote from: JackieR on June 02, 2008, 03:20:16 PM
In essence, should *I* support a girl to become a man "IF" the basis of her desire/need is to run and hide from childhood abuse and ineffective upbringing?   What happens when she's confronted with the reality that it's NOT a solution?  Especially when she's already voiced suicide as an option to escape.   I'm leaning towards helping her deal with the psychological pain, and advising caution towards jumping into HRT and other major moves in her life, especially when she feels that living as a man is a step she want's to skip - she just wants to "be" a man.

Its great that your wanting to help him deal with all the psychological pain, it sounds like he could really do with it. 
Should you support him in a gender transition, if your concerned about the reasons? Thats a very difficult decision.  If you are right about the reasons and gender transition not being the right solution for him, then of cause its right not to support it.  The difficulty is that you don't know what's going on in his head, and i think that just supporting him in going to a gender therapist is the best thing to do.  An experienced gender therapist will help him figure out if hormones etc are the solution.

The other side is that if you aren't supportive of how he feels, then its gonna be harder for him to talk about whats going on in his head.  and if you aren't supportive then is he gonna listen to you?

Quote from: JackieR on June 02, 2008, 03:20:16 PM
What confuses me most is the "join our club" mentality she (the child) raves about.  How she's found a "safe" place to belong - the TS/TG community, and how she now has an insatiable desire to be a "real" member of such a caring comunity.   She's drawn to the sensationalism of recent FtM's on Oprah and Barbara Walters, and wants to be in the same supportive spotlight.  She talks of TS/TG, just as Punks, Emos, Goths, Nerds, Prep'ies, and Jocks and all the other cliques unite as a members-only group.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with finding your "group", but it seams improper when the basis for joining a group is because your a victim of abuse.  Like becoming a cop because you seek power to "get even" because of what was done to you, sure, becoming a cop is good, but doing it for the "wrong" reasons seams inappropriate.

If he needs support then perhaps a TS/TG community is the best place for it?  Whether or not you think he's making the right decision, maybe talking to people who know what its like to have gender issues will help him to understand whether or not the abuse is the reason.

If he isn't gender dysphoric, then hearing other people talking about their dysphoria will perhaps help him figure out that he's not?  And in the meantime he's in a supportive environment which will help face up to the past abuse.

Quote from: Kate on June 02, 2008, 05:30:52 PM
and my use of "her" pronouns. As an adult, he's a HE to me if that's how he identifies

ditto what kate said. if he identifies as he, then thats what i'll call him.  Jackie, i'm not giving my opinion either way on whether he has GID or not.

Its great that he has you who truely cares for him. I hope things get better for both of you
*hugs*
jenny

Quote from: jenny_ on June 02, 2008, 07:56:56 PM
There is also the additional criteria that

Quote from: soc-v6
The patient has made some progress in mastering other identified problems leading to
improving or continuing stable mental health

A therapist won't prescribe hormones (or anything else) if theres concerns that they're refusing to tackle other problems (i.e. the abuse). And the three months is a minimum, Kate's right that some therapists require longer.
Gender transition is a big big thing, and therapists won't support the decision if they have doubts about the child's gender dysphoria.

That's great to hear, as I really feel "escaping" to male-ness isn't a proper cure/treatment for having been abused.

Quote from: jenny_ on June 02, 2008, 07:56:56 PM

Quote from: JackieR on June 02, 2008, 03:20:16 PM
In essence, should *I* support a girl to become a man "IF" the basis of her desire/need is to run and hide from childhood abuse and ineffective upbringing?   What happens when she's confronted with the reality that it's NOT a solution?  Especially when she's already voiced suicide as an option to escape.   I'm leaning towards helping her deal with the psychological pain, and advising caution towards jumping into HRT and other major moves in her life, especially when she feels that living as a man is a step she want's to skip - she just wants to "be" a man.

Its great that your wanting to help him deal with all the psychological pain, it sounds like he could really do with it. 
Should you support him in a gender transition, if your concerned about the reasons? Thats a very difficult decision.  If you are right about the reasons and gender transition not being the right solution for him, then of cause its right not to support it.  The difficulty is that you don't know what's going on in his head, and i think that just supporting him in going to a gender therapist is the best thing to do.  An experienced gender therapist will help him figure out if hormones etc are the solution.

I'm fully backing therapy, but also finding someone who's experienced enough to properly ascertain dealing with the years of abuse, AND her current mental state.

Quote from: jenny_ on June 02, 2008, 07:56:56 PM

Quote from: JackieR on June 02, 2008, 03:20:16 PM
What confuses me most is the "join our club" mentality she (the child) raves about.  How she's found a "safe" place to belong - the TS/TG community, and how she now has an insatiable desire to be a "real" member of such a caring comunity.   She's drawn to the sensationalism of recent FtM's on Oprah and Barbara Walters, and wants to be in the same supportive spotlight.  She talks of TS/TG, just as Punks, Emos, Goths, Nerds, Prep'ies, and Jocks and all the other cliques unite as a members-only group.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with finding your "group", but it seams improper when the basis for joining a group is because your a victim of abuse.  Like becoming a cop because you seek power to "get even" because of what was done to you, sure, becoming a cop is good, but doing it for the "wrong" reasons seams inappropriate.

If he needs support then perhaps a TS/TG community is the best place for it?  Whether or not you think he's making the right decision, maybe talking to people who know what its like to have gender issues will help him to understand whether or not the abuse is the reason.

If he isn't gender dysphoric, then hearing other people talking about their dysphoria will perhaps help him figure out that he's not?  And in the meantime he's in a supportive environment which will help face up to the past abuse.

What we're seeing is that the more she talks to TS/TG people, the more she wants to be like them, and the more she re-aligns her goals to become more TS/TG.   The obvious question I've asked is if she's talked with people that thought they were TS/TG/Dysphoric, then later discovered they were just going through normal adolescent discovery of themselves and their body?  She said nope - because those people leave the boards when they discover the feelings were temporary.  Then we get into the discussion of how the thought they knew themselves, only to discover they didn't.   Which frankly can be said about non-gender issues to, such as "I thought I wanted to be a fireman when I grew up, but now I want to be a florist..." then five years later, they change again, and want to be a bartender.

In essence, I'm all for communication, and I've seen several people on this forum be cautious about people's life choices, as well as careless.  It's nice to see both views exists in one place, it adds balance.

Quote from: jenny_ on June 02, 2008, 07:56:56 PM

Quote from: Kate on June 02, 2008, 05:30:52 PM
and my use of "her" pronouns. As an adult, he's a HE to me if that's how he identifies

ditto what kate said. if he identifies as he, then thats what i'll call him.  Jackie, i'm not giving my opinion either way on whether he has GID or not.

At this time she "wants" to be a "he", but it trying to find help from current TG people as to what she needs to change about herself to become a "he".   She knows all about packing, binding, and HRT, but can't choose a name, isn't comfortable with normal boy/men clothing, and is refusing to live as a boy/man because that's not as real as first taking HRT to become muscular, taller, and masculine.

So, at this point, I'm still calling her a "her", until she actually gets a name and starts dressing like a boy/man, and not a zoot-suit character.   For example, if I came to work dressed as superman every day, it's not a gender issue that I'm dressed as a man, it's a psychological identity issue that I'm not dressing appropriate for the workplace, but instead as a make-believe character.   (By the way, I did know a guy who used to wear a superman t-shirt under his suit - waiting for a moment to be a computer tech "super-hero" - the one time he tried it, he was a miserable failure, so embarrassing.)

Anyhow, I'm waiting for her to at least start pretending to actually be a boy/man, before caller her a him.

Quote from: jenny_ on June 02, 2008, 07:56:56 PM
Its great that he has you who truely cares for him. I hope things get better for both of you
*hugs*
jenny

At this point, I'm just looking for ideas for us to try to plot a course together - rather than trying to cram some ill-conceived ideas down her throat.   It feels like EDUCATION is a good place to start.

Thanks.

Quote from: JackieR on June 02, 2008, 09:48:25 PM
She knows all about packing, binding, and HRT, but can't choose a name, isn't comfortable with normal boy/men clothing, and is refusing to live as a boy/man because that's not as real as first taking HRT to become muscular, taller, and masculine.

That's not uncommon. Some of us (me included) wait until HRT allows us to "pass" in society as our target sex before actually committing to our new role. I really never touched women's clothes until I started passing, and didn't legally change my name until long after being "fulltime." It wasn't a lack of sincerity on my part, but rather I needed to be *accepted* in society as a female, and not just "do female things."

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on June 03, 2008, 08:51:30 AM

Quote from: JackieR on June 02, 2008, 09:48:25 PM
She knows all about packing, binding, and HRT, but can't choose a name, isn't comfortable with normal boy/men clothing, and is refusing to live as a boy/man because that's not as real as first taking HRT to become muscular, taller, and masculine.

That's not uncommon. Some of us (me included) wait until HRT allows us to "pass" in society as our target sex before actually committing to our new role. I really never touched women's clothes until I started passing, and didn't legally change my name until long after being "fulltime." It wasn't a lack of sincerity on my part, but rather I needed to be *accepted* in society as a female, and not just "do female things."

~Kate~

At what time did you want family/friends to call you a "her/she"?  It's just kind of weird to refer to a "Linda" as a "he" until she picks a boy-name.  If her name was Chris, Samantha (Sam), etc. it'd be so much easier.    But then, you're not tryng to learn how to become male to avoid abuse and have an easier life (she believes a man's life is easier, and want's to "switch").  Either way, thanks for letting me know that time is needed.

Quote from: JackieR on June 03, 2008, 02:19:33 PM
At what time did you want family/friends to call you a "her/she"?

I "came out" to everyone (coworkers, friends, neighbors and family) long before I looked very female, simply telling them I was in the process of transitioning, and that SOMEDAY I would be changing my legal sex to female and name to Kate. I never directly asked them to call me "her" or Kate.

And the neat thing was... everyone I knew just started calling me Kate and "her" from that day forward anyway, even though I really didn't look or act the part yet. But they all wanted to show that they respected my decision as a responsible adult, regardless of any *personal* doubts they may have had, and just felt it was "The Right Thing To Do."

~Kate~

I think it might be worth mentioning that transsexual and transgender folk of all ages are sometimes subjected to sexual harrassment and abuse because they are trans--including children.  Non-normative gender expression in youngsters, however subtle, is sometimes responded to with punitive violence by people in the caregiver position.  Horrifyingly, this can include sexual violence.  "You're not a boy, you're a woman and I'm going to prove it."  "So you want to be a girl?  I'll show you what girls get..."

So although it's possible that his desire to transition might theoretically have been triggered by a desire to escape from sexual abuse, it's also possible that the abuse was motivated in part by transphobia.

QuoteAt this time she "wants" to be a "he", but it trying to find help from current TG people as to what she needs to change about herself to become a "he".   She knows all about packing, binding, and HRT, but can't choose a name, isn't comfortable with normal boy/men clothing, and is refusing to live as a boy/man because that's not as real as first taking HRT to become muscular, taller, and masculine.

Okay, I don't want to seem confrontational, because I think you're an amazing person for taking such a caring and active interest in your young friend's wellbeing, but this comment rings a few alarm bells for me.  As has been mentioned upthread, it is very common for people to wait before they transition until they are confident of passing in their target gender (or for other reasons).  If you're read not as a natal male but as an aberrant female, you're at least going to risk getting some funny looks or shouted comments--and at the very  worst you might risk getting physically assaulted (even raped or murdered) by the self-appointed gender police.  I don't blame a very young, vulnerable abuse survivour for proceeding with caution in this regard.

QuoteSo, at this point, I'm still calling her a "her", until she actually gets a name and starts dressing like a boy/man, and not a zoot-suit character.

Hoom.  Thing is, knowing how to present like a "real" or "ordinary" member of one's gender is a learned skill.  A natal male will have plenty of practice and encouragement, with adults modelling the "correct" way to dress and act, and showing approval when he gets it right.  A guy who has to transition from an assigned gender of female doesn't have those advantages.  What other boys have had 18 years to get right, he's got to learn on the fly.  It's also the case that lots of natal males don't dress like regular guys, especially in their teens!  Young people experiment with clothes and appearance, often adopting extreme or odd-seeming garb either because it's appropriate to their subculture or just because that's what's caught their fancy.  It's also not uncommon for a teenager to go after very extreme expressions of their gender during those difficult teenaged years, ultra-feminine starlets or uber-masculine action heroes, mellowing a bit as they mature and gain confidence in their gender roles.  The "zoot suit character" might be entirely appropriate in that experimental/subcultural context.

Quote
What we're seeing is that the more she talks to TS/TG people, the more she wants to be like them, and the more she re-aligns her goals to become more TS/TG.

I can understand the draw of community, and the desperate need to belong, but I can't imagine many people sacrificing their actual genders to gain those things.  Maybe it's not a matter of desire, but of recognition?

QuoteThe obvious question I've asked is if she's talked with people that thought they were TS/TG/Dysphoric, then later discovered they were just going through normal adolescent discovery of themselves and their body?  She said nope - because those people leave the boards when they discover the feelings were temporary.  Then we get into the discussion of how the thought they knew themselves, only to discover they didn't.   Which frankly can be said about non-gender issues to, such as "I thought I wanted to be a fireman when I grew up, but now I want to be a florist..." then five years later, they change again, and want to be a bartender.

I think one reason you don't see that many people who dallied with TS/TG in their teens and later rejected this as a passing phase is partly that it just doesn't happen that often.  It really isn't like thinking you want to be a fireman and then deciding you want to be a florist.  Gender is at the core of one's identity in a way that career choices just aren't.  Cis people almost never question their genders because the forces that cause one to do so never arise in their psychological landscapes.  You don't have to ask yourself what you are because you just know.  The question never comes up unless something truly dramatic forces the issue.

As others have stated, therapy is the way forward for this youngster.  It is actually very difficult to get hormone treatment, let alone surgery, through normal medical channels.  The whole journey can take years in some cases, and any underlying problems will likely be dealt with thoroughly during that process.

My heart truly goes out to this person.  I'm so glad that he has someone like you watching his back.

That's not uncommon. Some of us (me included) wait until HRT allows us to "pass" in society as our target sex before actually committing to our new role. I really never touched women's clothes until I started passing, and didn't legally change my name until long after being "fulltime." It wasn't a lack of sincerity on my part, but rather I needed to be *accepted* in society as a female, and not just "do female things."

~Kate~

just wanted to put my two cents in, if i can, i do relate to some of Kate's last post. i have not legally changed my name and unfortunately i will probably not be able to legally change my gender marker on anything. i did have quite an abusive chioldhood as well, but it was anything close to sexual molestation, more of just like physical abuse for not doing what SHE wanted. i knew i was female long ago, but never told my parents as i saw how they got along as it was and decided to keep my mouth shut, at 5 i knew they would be divorced in ten years or less, they have been divorced almost 10 years now, since before my 15th b-day, i will be 25 in August. i have always been quite intuitive of how i am, and how others are. for a lot of ftm, it is harder for them to pass before they have any kind of hrt, i'm quite sure i see a lot of them here where i work, but because they still sound like women, they still get treated like women. if this person is androgynous, maybe identifies as neither sex? some of us on here are this "sex",  maybe this person identifies as both.i am glad you are there to support this person and to make sure that they get the proper care they need. trust me, i know how hard it is to find a qualified gender therapist who can do anything anywhere remotely close to home that accepts my insurance without having to drive 2.5 hours each way. plus however long the therapist and the client would like the therapy session to last. and names, boy names are drab, part of the reason i wanted al girls as children, for some odd reason i knew it would be waaaaaaay easier for me to name my daughters than it would be any sons, it took me almost the whole pregnancy remaining to decide on a name for my son when i found out we were actually having a boy. it takes time to pick a name for some people, if this person is a he, they will pick a name that suits them eventually, and i understand the pronoun thing way to much.

hoping everything works out for you and this person,
Warrior Princess Mickie

i did my best to use gender neutral nouns and pronouns to not offend anyone

I would start addressing someone in their desired pronouns and name from the moment they expressed their gender to me. Whether or not they look like their target gender.

Zythyra

Quote from: Lokaeign on June 03, 2008, 03:34:34 PM

QuoteAt this time she "wants" to be a "he", but it trying to find help from current TG people as to what she needs to change about herself to become a "he".   She knows all about packing, binding, and HRT, but can't choose a name, isn't comfortable with normal boy/men clothing, and is refusing to live as a boy/man because that's not as real as first taking HRT to become muscular, taller, and masculine.

Okay, I don't want to seem confrontational, because I think you're an amazing person for taking such a caring and active interest in your young friend's wellbeing, but this comment rings a few alarm bells for me.  As has been mentioned upthread, it is very common for people to wait before they transition until they are confident of passing in their target gender (or for other reasons).  If you're read not as a natal male but as an aberrant female, you're at least going to risk getting some funny looks or shouted comments--and at the very  worst you might risk getting physically assaulted (even raped or murdered) by the self-appointed gender police.  I don't blame a very young, vulnerable abuse survivour for proceeding with caution in this regard.

You don't seem confrontational.  I know my own ignorance will taint my perspective.  One reason I'm here is to try and get educated, and work towards further understanding, rather than just blind judging.

So, do speak your mind, I'm ok with that. Thanks.

Quote from: JackieR on June 03, 2008, 10:28:48 PM

Quote from: Lokaeign on June 03, 2008, 03:34:34 PM
Okay, I don't want to seem confrontational, because I think you're an amazing person for taking such a caring and active interest in your young friend's wellbeing, but this comment rings a few alarm bells for me.  ... I don't blame a very young, vulnerable abuse survivour for proceeding with caution in this regard.

You don't seem confrontational.  I know my own ignorance will taint my perspective.  One reason I'm here is to try and get educated, and work towards further understanding, rather than just blind judging.

I'm happy to see you write that, Jackie. Try to understand some of this from our perspective too. We expect people to be confrontational, because so many of us have experienced cis-sexuals as being dismissive and confrontational about our very selves. In many ways your openness to hear us and ask us for education is quite remarkable. Many do not feel that way.

But most of us are also aware that with us family and friends have often been the people least accepting of us. Most likely to call us simply crazy, freakish or just plain evil. They forget we bleed and cry and feel and think just like they do. And often they feel this way because they feel an 'embarrassment' that we might 'cause' to bleed over onto them when other people discover they have a '->-bleeped-<-' (many of us hate that word) in the family. It appears to be one thing to be touched by Jenny Boylan on Oprah and her struggle, another thing entirely when someone discovers his nephew or niece her son or daughter is TS/TG.

Cissexuals have the advantage of having sexed-bodies that agree with their sense of who they are, gender-wise. We struggle through or into that, often for many years. It's a perceptual thing. I may find ketchup on scrambled eggs normal fare. (I don't, I'm gonna be ill thinking about it!!  )  But you may find that totally disgusting and may, if you feel strongly enough about it, describe me as 'crazy.'

The analogy is lacking no doubt, most are, but I am hoping you'll understand.

Anyhow, we don't want to frighten you away. We also don't want you to be angry or to offend you. There are not a lot of people like you in many of our experiences. Thank you so much for being open to hearing us.

Best,

Nichole

Quote

At this time, she says she's a "she", but likes the attention she gets when she dresses as a male movie character (not as a normal boy/man).  That the excitement of tricking people is invigorating, and how it's so "cool" to be first treated as a boy, to then divulge she's really a girl.   They apologize, and she gets a "high" on telling them their error is ok.

This strikes me as an adolescent testing the waters.  We've all done this to some degree.  Some more than others.  You have to understand that for many years, this young person has had to come to terms with this mostly by himself.  Can you imagine what that must have felt like? Put that together with the abuse..... I can only imagine.

Welcome to the forum.  I too am glad that you are here. 

Cindi

Quote from: JackieR on June 03, 2008, 11:20:33 PM

... To me, it appears to be a ... way to exercise control ... over other people, ...

It could well be they are making attempts to do exactly that. Not sick, but 'twisted' in terms of where it could, and probably does, come from.

The child was hurt and 'twisted' by someone in the home from whom they did and should have expected to protect, nourish and cherish them. They were profoundly not 'in control' of their own life, their own environment and definitely, most forcefully and fearfully, not in control of their own person, their own body.

Most survivors have these 'acting out' behaviors as a means of exerting control. Some cut to control emotion, some decline to eat and nourish themselves to control their bodies, their wills. Some develop personality disorders like 'borderline' to control their fear of being profoundly abused by others, to control their own trust which had been heartlessly betrayed. Others control men or women by acting out in orgies of sexual promiscuity so they can watch themselves exert 'power' over others, the power to summon lust. Many men act out their childhood sexual abuse by continuously getting into to fights that summon a sort of berserker-rage that makes them 'uncontrollable' by their antagonist. Many dissociate, they simply withdrsw in some fashion from reality as it presents itself with an uncomfortable situation or a situation that somehow 'triggers' memories that they find unbearable. Some, very few in terms of dissociation, actually invent a multitude of various 'personae' who all reside in their single brain and body, each 'persona' coping with a different set of events as needed. Yet, what you and I refer to as 'day-dreaming' is exactly the same behavior simply intensified greatly. 

To be honest, a lot of people who have not suffered emotional, physical or sexual abuse as children do the same thing to exert control over situations they feel helpless in the face of. People try to 'control' their lack of power and self-efficacy by beating-up their wives, by exhibiting behaviors associated with 'road rage.'

Most of us dislike the feeling of never having control, never being able to 'make' someone else do what we want, obey 'the rules,' and so forth. The child is in no way different, except that they were so profoundly 'controlled' by another that the results and effects of that take years for them to work through. Some never do. They remain as terrified and as out-of-control as they were in the moment the abuse began.

The human brain is a wonderful and awe-inspiring organ. Yet, it is fragile and may become 'unbalanced' rather easily. Abuse, severe abuse particularly, causes people who suffer it in many ways to 'close down,' to use a single coping mechanism when you or I might use a diversity depending on situations.

That the child may wish to exert a form of control is a very normal behavior for any of us. That is not sick and twisted and is readily understandable if we consider the circumstances. It's not 'crazy.' It is simply intensified many times over what many of us consider 'normal.'

It's very difficult to wrap our minds around the fact that someone we love can be so used by another. I completely empathize with how terrible that must be for you to contemplate and the frustration and doubt and fear you must undergo yourself, Jackie. Yet, that set of control behaviors does not rule out that this child may well also have gender-dysphoria that is not a part of their trauma-reactions.

I'm sure you don't want to read it. It can be very rough being a part of our community while people believe about us the things some believe and act on. Yet, you do have this child with you. Cherish that and treat them well, as you so evidently do already.

Hugs,

Nichole

Quote from: Nichole on June 04, 2008, 12:04:00 AM

Quote from: JackieR on June 03, 2008, 11:20:33 PM

... To me, it appears to be a ... way to exercise control ... over other people, ...

It could well be they are making attempts to do exactly that. Not sick, but 'twisted' in terms of where it could, and probably does, come from.

The child was hurt and 'twisted' by someone in the home from whom they did and should have expected to protect, nourish and cherish them. They were profoundly not 'in control' of their own life, their own environment and definitely, most forcefully and fearfully, not in control of their own person, their own body.

Most survivors have these 'acting out' behaviors as a means of exerting control...

Wow - this opens my eyes some.  I hadn't considered it to be a natural reaction to the situation.  I was so focused on the current behavior as being a misrepresentation and way of embarrassing others, rather than a hunt for a coping mechanism (or such). 

I'll be digesting this tonight. Thanks.