i was wondering about transphobic people, cos i tend to avoid them.  But if you're stealth then do you do the same?

i mean since people don't know about your past, then obviously they can't have a problem with you. But would you ever be friends with people like that? Or would they're transphobic views stop you associating with them, even though their views aren't really directed at you?

just pondering...

I had an experience with someone at work a while ago.  You can read about her here:

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,20503.0.html

Since then, "J" has been transferred to a different location.  Rumors have it that she requested the transfer herself. 

Am I friends with the people who treated "J" the way they did?  They are people that I work with on a daily basis.  They are my co-workers, not my friends.  I'm supposed to maintain a professional attitude with everyone, even with those I disagree.  Nonetheless, I'm saddened to say that this incident with "J" made me realize the true colors of some of the people that I valued the most. 

tink

I always find these stealth vs. nonstealth issues interesting. I tend to agree that most of us seem to have a built in TS radar. As with Tink I work in a hospital  and have the occasion to see many people and I know without a doubt that I have clocked others and while not in makeup and female clothing or really doing anything to present female due to the type of position I have, there is no doubt they clocked me. I think it is the knowing look that is given that is quite predictable and validating. I personally would never out another, and Im not sure how one would even venture a conversation.

Now for my self just starting to get to the point where my therapist has aknowledged that I am considered by her to be full time and I am exploring my Surgery options, financial and other things. I wonder just where I will be on the  Stealth issue.

1. I am planning on transisioning on the job, because of age, job longevity and such.
2. I by no means am a beauty and still have much to do.
3. I am planning on surgery before I fully complete all the electrology and other esthetic items.
4. I was in the Hospital myself last week for Hypotension ( low blood pressue, I collapsed ) and did not feel a bit uncomfortable in disclosing my status. Very hard not to do considering Medical considerations.
5. I hate to mention this as I dont who all reads these posts but I believe it to be relevant. I have observed at least one TS individual  that anyone could have clocked, but her demeaner was such that you had to admire her. She was herself and the world bedamned if you couldnt accept it. WOW.
6. In this changing society and I live in the Midwest, most people are so occupied with their own problems that they couldnt care less about you. As long as you dont flaunt it and shove it in their face, they dont bother you.
7. I am old enough and thick skinned and have always been a loner and never much cared what others thought of me anyway, so whats the deal?
8. I am always amazed by the questions I get when someone finds out about me. And mostly the females and even some guys. Its like, I always wondered about that, and then they ask intelligent questions.

I dont begrudge anyone their stealth and wish I could experience it and perhaps in time..... But one also has to applaud those of us that are advocates for our cause, and there are many of us doing that.
Just my two cents worth.

Wendy

I think the general rule-of-thumb is to just pass on by if you don't know the person or their status. It can be uncomfortable in the extreme to be approached by another you don't know in a public place.

As with cissexual people, one size doesn't fit all.

N~

Quote from: jenny_ on June 06, 2008, 08:17:35 PM
But if you're stealth then do you do the same?

i mean since people don't know about your past, then obviously they can't have a problem with you. But would you ever be friends with people like that? Or would they're transphobic views stop you associating with them, even though their views aren't really directed at you?

just pondering...

people carry around all manner of problems, fallacies, prejudices, bad moods, and unsettled thinking. you can't turn away from everyone. gently guide them to clearer thinking, if possible. they may even thank you for it.

-Ellie

I would think that even now, before I'm out or fully transitioned, I don't tend to hang out with many people whose views are polar opposites of mine.  Not that everyone I know is my clone, but I don't hang out with people who ooze negativity, preferring those with a more upbeat attitude.  I don't hang out with people whose motto ie 'I can't' or enjoy victim status or enjoy being melodramatic.  I don't hang out with bigots.  On the other hand when around these folks I've never hesitated to state my own views.  I don't think that in the future transphobic people would be high on my friends list.

That said, I agree with Ell in this: 

QuoteI tend to agree that most of us seem to have a built in TS radar. As with Tink I work in a hospital  and have the occasion to see many people and I know without a doubt that I have clocked others and while not in makeup and female clothing or really doing anything to present female due to the type of position I have, there is no doubt they clocked me. I think it is the knowing look that is given that is quite predictable and validating. I personally would never out another, and Im not sure how one would even venture a conversation.

At work a week or so ago I met a fully transitioned woman.  To anyone else I doubt they would have known.  But I did.  Nothing really gave her away at all.  Did she clock me?  Don't know.  It was a highly emotional situation and I doubt that was high on her list of things to be thinking about.

Jay

Quote from: sneakersjay on June 07, 2008, 03:43:00 PM
That said, I agree with Ell in this: 

QuoteI tend to agree that most of us seem to have a built in TS radar. As with Tink I work in a hospital  and have the occasion to see many people and I know without a doubt that I have clocked others and while not in makeup and female clothing or really doing anything to present female due to the type of position I have, there is no doubt they clocked me. I think it is the knowing look that is given that is quite predictable and validating. I personally would never out another, and Im not sure how one would even venture a conversation.

Jay

i din't say dat, Wendy C sed it, see?  i sed sumpin' else.

-Ell

Not caring if other's clock you, or even accept you is
a way to distance yourself from others.

I'm not so sure its courageous, or oblivious.

I actually see this kind "I don't care what the world thinks" more
often when TS start therapy and they are often mad at the world
because of their past.

The result of this is often not to good integration with society and
failed or marginal transition. Unless people actually care if
the world accepts you, its hard to integrate this world
(that's my observation).

That doesn't mean you should put your self-worth in the hands of
those outside you. But, there should be an equilibrium
between doing your own thing and being in society.

I would never approach or signal a TS that I don't know
if I "read" them, its not because they're TS that I know
them and I would not do that to a stranger.

Quote from: Keira on June 07, 2008, 06:14:03 PM

Not caring if other's clock you, or even accept you is
a way to distance yourself from others.

I'm not so sure its courageous, or oblivious.

I actually see this kind "I don't care what the world thinks" more
often when TS start therapy and they are often mad at the world
because of their past.

The result of this is often not to good integration with society and
failed or marginal transition. Unless people actually care if
the world accepts you, its hard to integrate this world
(that's my observation).

That doesn't mean you should put your self-worth in the hands of
those outside you. But, there should be an equilibrium
between doing your own thing and being in society.

I would never approach or signal a TS that I don't know
if I "read" them, its not because they're TS that I know
them and I would not do that to a stranger.

i like your observation

Quote from: sneakersjay on June 07, 2008, 03:43:00 PM
I would think that even now, before I'm out or fully transitioned, I don't tend to hang out with many people whose views are polar opposites of mine.  Not that everyone I know is my clone, but I don't hang out with people who ooze negativity, preferring those with a more upbeat attitude.  I don't hang out with people whose motto ie 'I can't' or enjoy victim status or enjoy being melodramatic.  I don't hang out with bigots.  On the other hand when around these folks I've never hesitated to state my own views.  I don't think that in the future transphobic people would be high on my friends list.

Yeah, thats understandable.  I do that, and I think everyone does, and i think it answers my ponderment.
I totally get not wanting to hang out with bigots, it doesn't matter if their bigotry is aimed at you.

And Keira, what you said really makes sense and i'd never thought about it like that. 

There are people who are bigots purely for the reason that they are scared.  Scared of the unknown and sometimes, not always, just sometimes they need a little nudge in the right direction.  They can change, but the hardcore bigots who claim they can justify their behaviour and words by whatever means, aren't worth bothering about.

Keira, that is a very good observation and I didnt mean to imply that I wouldnt rather be in a stealth position and only be seen as a woman. That is a lofty goal and a lot of cross gendered folk will be able to do just that. That is the ultimate validation of your transition. Sadly IMHO there will be be a lot more than not that will ever have that in their lives. I listen to some of the folks in the SF area and  a lot of them say you will get clocked there faster than anywhere else in the Country.

Transition/transgender also has as many faces as ideas on causes. I dont believe in flaunting or shoving it in anothers face either, but I am not afraid to be proud of who I am. None of us asked for this and each of us has to respond to it the best way they can, given what life has dealt them. Its all still a very personal thing we deal with.

Transphobic people, I try to educate if possible and I dont mean I go out of my way to engage in their private conversations. I will if included in a conversation try to put forth a more tolerant view.

Wendy

Do I have TSdar?  Yup.  Do I have Gaydar?  Yup.

Does it matter how I will treat that person?  Not in public. But in private it is fun to acknowledge similarities in our lives.  You'll never get that private conversations if you shy away from encounters.  Does that mean I'll go across the street to strike up a conversation?  No.  It means that I will treat my sisters and brothers with dignity with every opportunity.

Years ago, I remember meeting another sis at one of my extracurricular clubs.  There were lots of people there and I thought that she stood out.  At first I hesitated but I finally introduced myself.  She recognized me instantly.  But we never talked "shop".  And not one other person in the group said anything bad about her.  There were two of us in the club and never was there a problem.  We did not become good friends.  But we met every time the group did.  I learned then that my perceptions and feelings were no longer relevant.  I too could treat everyone else as I wanted them to treat me.

I wish I could type more...

Cindi

Quote from: ell on June 07, 2008, 05:17:42 PM

i din't say dat, Wendy C sed it, see?  i sed sumpin' else.

-Ell

Oops, my bad.  Sorry Wendy!  And Ell.

Jay

Okay, Okay, I said it. I know I stick my foot in my mouth alot but >  Was it really that bad that no one else would take it?  >  Sorry Ell, Jay. 

I think that the times are starting to change some for us as public perception is changed. Recent programs have cast a better light on us than was had in the past. Ie Oprah and others, Yes they were sensationalised but I think they went a long way in showing a Human side to us and not as freaks and perverts. There will always be transphobics just as there will always be homophiles but education tends to help change that.

Wendy

I listen to some of the folks in the SF area and  a lot of them say you will get clocked there faster than anywhere else in the Country.

I don't think that people get clocked as much as the fact that there are so many TG persons that the odds of working with someone who is, of knowing someone who is, of living near, or commuting with, or being served by (or serving) someone who is is pretty high.  And once you know, its a lot easier to see.

Quote from: Wendy C on June 07, 2008, 08:13:08 PM

Transphobic people, I try to educate if possible and I dont mean I go out of my way to engage in their private conversations. I will if included in a conversation try to put forth a more tolerant view.

Wendy

I do exactly the same. I don't care for people like that in my lives so I do purge them, but not before having a nice chat. I don't get pushy, I don't get agressive, I don't even try to convince them. I usually try to muse with them about why they feel that way, offer a relatable perspective, hopfully get the gears of tolerance rotating in their heads, and go my merry way.

My opinion is that people in SFO are just more smug about TS.

Where as elsewhere a 6 foot GG will be seen well as a GG,
in SFO people will say she's a TS. I've seen it.

Many TS that people do read are not that subtle, there
is a big population of TS and TG and many are lets face it
at various stages of transition and many are not passable
at all.

I bet that those
that are stealth (like Tink) are not read more often there.

that people in SFO are just more smug about TS.

And just about everything else too I think.  "Oh, no thanks, I only smoke American Spirit, its natural" (Yeah, a healthy ciggy, right.)  We are smug about architecture, about food, about beer (please, microbrews made with this style of hops only please.  Handing these people a Bud is almost a death sentence, if you can find a Bud.)  Its perhaps the worst place to drive in the world because the bikes and peds have this smug idea that they own the streets, and cars can screw.  I see people walk out into major streets all the time, forcing all traffic to a halt just as la-de-da as you please, and we're not even going to talk about Critical Mass (I do Critical Mass every month on my pink bike by the way, and have for years, and so that's full disclosure).

People who say "Peninsula" and "East Bay" like they would say "Alabama" and think of everything the far side of 19th as "West SF" like its another place.

And its not just TS, its the full spectrum of TG, from a weekly drag show at one of the cities best addresses, (Sunday morning, at Harry Denton's Starlight room of the Sir Francis Drake) to Helinka to Theresa Sparks.

Heck, South Park did a whole episode on smug and San Francisco.

Quote from: jenny_ on June 07, 2008, 07:21:09 PM
I totally get not wanting to hang out with bigots, it doesn't matter if their bigotry is aimed at you.

For me, it really depends on the overall person. A lot of people's bark is far worse than their bite. I'm friends with a few anti-gay people, as well as someone who tells me I'm going to burn in hell for doing this. And yet they treat me just fine, respect that I'm Kate and "her" and all, sooooo... we're cool, even our views are totally different.

On the other hand, I've really gotten into it with racists and homophobes on more than one occasion, lol... so I dunno. I seem to feel more of a need to defend *other* people, than myself and TSism.

~Kate~