https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,35832.0/topicseen.html Zoe Brain absolutely is a 'deep thinker' and a marvelous person. She didn't spur this directly, but just exchanging information and chat with her can be quite creativity-inspiring.

It's taken a long time, but I am wondering if maybe a new thought hasn't crossed my mind in terms of how, androgynes, nons and transsexuals can perhaps come closer to 'understanding' one another. Maybe not, but I would think it's worth a shot anyhow.

It strikes me that cissexual people should, if they wish to understand us at all, contemplete their reactions to SRS and other surgeries we undergo, but particulalry SRS of either type: changing vagina to penis or vice versa.

It's obvious to see that what is involved is that they experience a deep revulsion that their bodies would change from (instead of 'for') the configuration they are now in.

I believe it's at that contemplative point that they can begin to understand what we have experienced all of our lives: a very deep and strong sense of "this is a mistake. That is not 'me.'" Ergo: gender identity dysphoria. Their revulsion at changing surgically the way they are matches the way most of us have felt since we were 3-14.

Obviously their struggle with GID won't 'last' because in that respect they are "normal." But, it seems to me that the process is the exact same. Just doing that and studying it would give them, I think, the sense that they do, indeed have a gender identity that they hold just as strongly as we do.

Androgynes as well: it's just that the androgenic hold the sense that they should be both/neither. A third 'gender.'

Nichole

Yes Nichole, Zoe Brain's blog is awesome!

Sometimes, when talking to non-trans, or cis-people (haven't totally decided if I like using the term cis-) about gender issues, I ask them how they'd feel if someone made them live in the opposite gender. They usually are pretty adamant about being their birth gender, thus yes, cis-people do indeed have gender identity, just happens to be congruent with their birth sex (nice for them).

Zythyra

Quote from: Nichole on May 26, 2008, 09:16:22 AMIt strikes me that cissexual people should, if they wish to understand us at all, contemplete their reactions to SRS and other surgeries we undergo, but particulalry SRS of either type: changing vagina to penis or vice versa.

It's obvious to see that what is involved is that they experience a deep revulsion that their bodies would change for the configuration they are now in.

The problem as I see it is this:

Disbelief.

Even IF you can get them to contemplate the ramifications of surgery on themselves they simply can't make the leap to believing it's something we go through.  To them it's totally a hypothetical thing THAT NEVER HAPPENS.  Hate to repeat myself, but my experience is 95% of cisgendered folks simply can't, won't (or are to lazy?) understand.  It's just much easier for them to dismiss us as kooks.  They'll do almost anything to avoid the simple truth we repeat over and over.  To them gender is one of those unbreakable rules of nature.  Kinda like the speed of light.  In my experience they (95%) simply can't get their head around the idea of a brain-body mismatch.  A cow can be born with two heads, humans can be born with a dead twin inside them, blind people can regain their sight after being struck by lightening, [insert any other amazing biological fact], but they can't, or they refuse, to understand US.

The only way out of this mobius loop is for more and more people to continue transitioning openly.  Eventually everyone will know one of us, if not intimately, in a significant way.  And they will learn despite themselves.  Think of the example of the gay movement.  50 years ago they were the unmentionables, the untouchables of our society.  And now look how far they've come.  And they didn't get there by being meek.  They got there by putting themselves out there!

We have to do the same.

my 2¢


p.s. Nichole, I don't know if this is the kind of response you were looking for, but it's the best I can do right now at the end of a busy day (night shift worker).

Hmmm. Very interesting perspective Nichole. I've tried the "Imagine you wake up one morning and you are the wrong biological sex... " line, but this seems like it might be a bit more effective. Will be trying it out on some unsuspecting cis-people soon.

~Simone.

What is a Cissexual?
I ain't never heard of that before.
Del

Try this, Del,

Quote... people who are not transsexual and who have only ever experienced their subconscious and physical sexes as being aligned.

Nichole

Nichole,
Thank you very much. I really appreciate the help.
Del
 

Quote from: Zythyra on May 26, 2008, 10:27:24 AM
Yes Nichole, Zoe Brain's blog is awesome!

Sometimes, when talking to non-trans, or cis-people (haven't totally decided if I like using the term cis-) about gender issues, I ask them how they'd feel if someone made them live in the opposite gender. They usually are pretty adamant about being their birth gender, thus yes, cis-people do indeed have gender identity, just happens to be congruent with their birth sex (nice for them).

Zythyra

nicely said.