I quite agree with sd, I had no problems with my psychiatrist the endo's, the assessors and the  gatekeepers and it was four years later before SRS so I believe that in that amount of time it didn't leave much doubt of any kind in my mind as to who I am.

Cindy

I'm new to this world myself, and can relate to what the question ".....Now what?"
I've always had gender isues, I just never realy new what they were. It's only recently that I found out what androgyny was. Now that i know what it is what do  I do with it? I had that question before, I just didn't know what to call "it". Not gay, but not realy strait either. This realy is quite confussing.

Quote from: sd on June 14, 2008, 09:59:28 PM
I am not saying it is wrong either, some androgynes are more close to T.S. than androgyne and possibly should transition just as some T.S. are probably closer to androgyne and probably shouldn't.

Indeed. There are no sharp lines between the categories, it's more a matter of dividing a continuum into sections, and therefore the lines must be somewhat arbitrary. Besides, 'androgyne' and 'TS' are not even on the same continuum: one is more a gender identity (or expression) and the other a degree of gender dysphoria.

We've had on this forum people who are clearly TS but with a neutrois or mixed target gender, and also people who are at a point on the GID scale where an androgynous presentation is the best option. In other words, just like you say. Moreover, at least for me the variety has been very helpful.

Quote from: Daisyz on June 15, 2008, 12:31:05 AM
It's only recently that I found out what androgyny was. Now that i know what it is what do  I do with it?

What do you want to do with it?

For me the big thing here was realising that ultimately my problems with gender (as a social construct) were about having to conform to the expectations. I wasn't happy pretending to be a man all the time, but I wouldn't be any more happy pretending to be a woman all the time. It's much better to be me, regardless of whether people see that me as masculine or feminine.

It's in fact what quite a few of the transsexuals over here say: they too only succeed in transition by being themselves, not by trying to be what they think (pre-transition) their target gender is. So, in short, do what feels right for you; if at some point you find that changing your legal gender makes life easier do that, but meanwhile don't worry too much about such things. By realising you are neither completely female nor completely male you have gained a lot of freedom. I'm afraid it's up to you to decide what to do with it.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 15, 2008, 05:13:29 AM
Besides, 'androgyne' and 'TS' are not even on the same continuum: one is more a gender identity (or expression) and the other a degree of gender dysphoria.

I think more than a few might argue with that statement. For some who identify as androgyne there can be just as much dysphoria.

Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 05:34:14 AM

Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 15, 2008, 05:13:29 AM
Besides, 'androgyne' and 'TS' are not even on the same continuum: one is more a gender identity (or expression) and the other a degree of gender dysphoria.

I think more than a few might argue with that statement. For some who identify as androgyne there can be just as much dysphoria.

Yes, but that doesn't mean that having an androgyne identity is characterised by the dysphoria. What I meant was that androgyne is on the same plane as man, woman and perhaps a number of other genders, while transsexual is on a different axis, at the opposite end from cissexual. On that axis it doesn't matter what gender one identifies with, just that it is different from the one assigned at birth and that this difference causes distress -- the way I see it, a male-to-androgyne who seeks surgery is just as transsexual as a female-to-male who seeks surgery.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 15, 2008, 10:06:36 AM
Yes, but that doesn't mean that having an androgyne identity is characterised by the dysphoria. What I meant was that androgyne is on the same plane as man, woman and perhaps a number of other genders, while transsexual is on a different axis, at the opposite end from cissexual. On that axis it doesn't matter what gender one identifies with, just that it is different from the one assigned at birth and that this difference causes distress -- the way I see it, a male-to-androgyne who seeks surgery is just as transsexual as a female-to-male who seeks surgery.

  Nfr

Sorry Nfr, I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say.

Hi SD I believe I got lost on that one as well. I guess my old bean isn't as sharp as it use to be.

Cindy

Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 01:15:06 PM

Quote from: Seshatneferw on June 15, 2008, 10:06:36 AM
Yes, but that doesn't mean that having an androgyne identity is characterised by the dysphoria. What I meant was that androgyne is on the same plane as man, woman and perhaps a number of other genders, while transsexual is on a different axis, at the opposite end from cissexual. On that axis it doesn't matter what gender one identifies with, just that it is different from the one assigned at birth and that this difference causes distress -- the way I see it, a male-to-androgyne who seeks surgery is just as transsexual as a female-to-male who seeks surgery.

  Nfr

Sorry Nfr, I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say.

If I'm understanding Nfr correctly...
Transsexual is a vector rather than a location.  It's specifying anatomical sex being different to identified sex (though transsexual is often used in a broader sense that doesn't just pertain to body image).  Androgyne on the other hand is a location not a vector, and is about gender in general not just about body sex (indeed a lot of androgynes don't experience body dysphoria).  They don't exist on the same continuum because they're not about the same thing.

Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 03:15:06 PM
If I'm understanding Nfr correctly...
Transsexual is a vector rather than a location.  It's specifying anatomical sex being different to identified sex (though transsexual is often used in a broader sense that doesn't just pertain to body image).  Androgyne on the other hand is a location not a vector, and is about gender in general not just about body sex (indeed a lot of androgynes don't experience body dysphoria).  They don't exist on the same continuum because they're not about the same thing.

Not to play devil's advocate, but what of those who are borderline between the two?

A distinction like that tries to make the two very different, when I don't think they are that far off, granted it could depend on how you identify (or what type of androgyne you are?). For some it may be worlds apart, but for some, there seems to be a very fine line separating androgyne from T.S.

Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 04:51:27 PM
Not to play devil's advocate, but what of those who are borderline between the two?

A distinction like that tries to make the two very different, when I don't think they are that far off, granted it could depend on how you identify (or what type of androgyne you are?). For some it may be worlds apart, but for some, there seems to be a very fine line separating androgyne from T.S.

I think you're still missing the point.  Like NFr said, it's perfectly possible to be fully androgyne AND TS, androgyne because of their gender identity and transsexual because their body doesn't match their mental image of how it's supposed to be.    Being transsexual isn't a binary only process, people can desire transition to a physically androgynous or physically neutered state (or any other mixture of sex characteristics).

You can be a male bodied person who identifies as female and not be TS because you don't experience body dysphoria, on the other hand you can be a male bodied person who identifies as mostly male and be TS because you DO experience body dysphoria. 

Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 05:02:20 PM
I think you're still missing the point. 

I did, I think I get what you are saying now.

Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 05:02:20 PM
I think you're still missing the point.  Like NFr said, it's perfectly possible to be fully androgyne AND TS, androgyne because of their gender identity and transsexual because their body doesn't match their mental image of how it's supposed to be.    Being transsexual isn't a binary only process, people can desire transition to a physically androgynous or physically neutered state (or any other mixture of sex characteristics).

I agree that it's possible to be both, although this option isn't supported by a majority of TS people. If I hadn't found the term androgyne, I'd likely identify as non-binary, non-op, non HRT (for now) TS/TG. Of course, we know the hot water that'd get me into, so probably safer to just say that I'm androgyne. 

Zythyra

Quote from: Zythyra on June 15, 2008, 06:19:07 PM

I agree that it's possible to be both, although this option isn't supported by a majority of TS people. If I hadn't found the term androgyne, I'd likely identify as non-binary, non-op, non HRT (for now) TS/TG. Of course, we know the hot water that'd get me into, so probably safer to just say that I'm androgyne. 

Zythyra

Hehe, yeah, identifying as a non-binary TS has gotten me into hot water with a few people...  I've never been one to go for the safer option though :p

Quote from: Andra on June 15, 2008, 06:26:45 PM
Hehe, yeah, identifying as a non-binary TS has gotten me into hot water with a few people...  I've never been one to go for the safer option though :p

I'd say "go grrrrl", however if there's a better phrase for a non-binary person, let me know and I'll use it. Anyway, some of us will end up in hot water no matter what we call ourselves, so we might as well jump in.

Z

Quote from: sd on June 15, 2008, 01:15:06 PM
Sorry Nfr, I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say.

What I was trying to say is pretty  much what A&Z already figured out. That is, androgyne is a gender and transsexual is a condition where the mismatch between one's gender and sex is severe enough. It's really pretty much how these terms are used here, although different people have different ideas of what's 'severe enough', and also quite a few don't really recognise androgyne as a valid gender in this context (and so consider TS as being just between male and female).

So, what I'm saying is that it is possible to have an androgyne gender without being transsexual (for example, for someone who doesn't really care about their physical sex, or for an intersexed person who's happy with their anatomy); it is possible to be transsexual and have some other gender (just look around in some of these forums); it's possible to be neither (just look around next time you walk out the door); and it's possible to be both (I really can't think what else call someone like Andra, who if I remember correctly was recently approved for surgery). And, of course, it's possible to be borderline regarding either of these (say, not quite TS enough to transition, or straddling the line between androgyne and female).

  Nfr

Quote from: riven_one on June 11, 2008, 12:26:22 AM
This question has been burning inside me for some time now. Our FTM and MTF brothers and sisters have "a path" that they can take to make changes to help them be who they feel they should be, and I find myself a bit jealous of them at times. I'll always be "stuck" somewhere in the middle, with either extreme not suitable/a solution for me, and with me not fitting in with either a male or female world.

or as Kristi said, "stuck in the middle with you", a fine gerry rafferty song.

Anyone else find this frustrating? or is it just me? 

I feel very happy where I see myself positioned in society.
My problem is how I can show it to all the other people? I guess most of my friends and aquaintences know that I'm not the manly type, but I'm much more than that and want people on the street to know that.
But how? I don't want to seem like a failed crossdresser or one of those awful fashion-obsessed metrosexuals.