Evening, my friends.

I want to know about the androgyne child and dysphoria. I want to know how you felt as a child regarding your gender id. I want to know if you experienced discomfort going through puberty. What you felt about your body changing.

And about the social part. If you had trouble fitting in or being ostricized with your birth sex peers or just in general what it was like socially.

Thanks.

Quote from: Nero on June 12, 2008, 09:11:57 PM
I want to know about the androgyne child and dysphoria. I want to know how you felt as a child regarding your gender id.

I didn't fit in as a boy. I had no desire to do boy stuff, play with boy toys, didn't like to participate in any sports. I knew I was different, and everyone else knew it too. I tended to be a loner, immersed in music and books. I was often teased for being a sissy (or harsher phrases). I didn't like getting teased, but I couldn't see what was wrong with being a sissy. Being like boys just seemed dumb. Puberty was awful. I sometimes imagined myself being female, and that idea felt nice. I generally got along well with adults, not with people my own age. I couldn't wait to finish high school and get the hell out of town.

Z

Well Nero, you ask some dang good questions.  I'll give this one a try just to get things started.

I don't have many vivid memories of early childhood, but I know that I was a small frail child with asthma that kept me from doing a lot of things.  I do have several memories from 1st - 3rd grade or so.  One is that during recess, most of the boys played a strange version of soccer, but I preferred to play on the swings and monkey bars with the girls, even though I knew they gave you cooties.  I also have several images in my mind of times all the boys were playing or doing something, and I wasn't part of them.  Lots of time alone or with 1 or 2 other weirdos, (all of which were among the smartest kids in the class).

In 5th - 6th grade, the guys would go outside at recess, and the girls would stay inside and dance.  I stayed inside and played DJ.  With the girls, but not really.

I also remember that the whole time I was growing up, the person I most wanted to be like was my cousin who was a year older than I.  She was so cool.  I was able to see her a lot in the summers when she would spend 2 or 3 weeks camping with us at the lake.  We did all kinds of things, and she was my best friend.

Then puberty came.  She got to grow breasts and look so nice in that two piece bathing suit.  I didn't.  I do remember riding in the boat one time with my two boy cousins (3 & 5 years older than me), and being very happy that my legs didn't have hair on them (and looked nice and smooth) whereas their legs were all hairy and yucky.  Friggin puberty...first hair started "down there" then in the armpits.  Next thing I knew, it had spread everywhere, and I was caught in a torrent of Testosterone stupidity.

Still, I managed to have as many girls that were friends as guys during high school.  Actually, it may have been more girls than guys, but looking back, I think there was an element of "liking liking" going on that I had no clues about.  I know I had several friends I ran around with that kept waiting for me, the guy, to make a move.  I know that now...back then I really didn't even think about it.  There were girls I liked and wanted to date, and there were girls that were friends. 

In high school, I wasn't part of the "in crowd" but I was one of the ringleaders in the Band / Geek circles.  Heck, I was even Drum Major.  The best part of that was hanging out with the girls who twirled their batons...I even learned to do it a little.  (I know, cool, eh?)

So, I think as a younger child, I was not really part of the boys or girls groups.  Rather, I stayed by myself in between the groups, sometimes joining one group or the other as I wanted, (or they would let me).  By high school, I had found a way (don't ask me how) to be a guy, but still have lots of friends that were girls.  Funny how it all makes sense now, as back then, I had no idea how unusual that all was.

I'm still not sure if it was being an androgyne, or just one the geeks that made things they way they were, but I have a feeling that both were heavily involved.

I don't know if that answered your question, Nero, or if I just had something to tell and you gave me the opening.  In any case, hope it was close enough.

......L









Posted on: June 12, 2008, 10:47:16 PM

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Quote from: Zythyra on June 12, 2008, 10:33:42 PM
I generally got along well with adults, not with people my own age. I couldn't wait to finish high school and get the hell out of town.

Dang it, Z, you beat me...guess it took too long to type my life story.   

Me too on the adults.  And, while I didn't leave town after high school, when I moved out, I got my phone listed with just my initials and not my name...didn't really want anything to do with the folks from then.

....L

Androgyne child?  I ran around all day slaying dragons and sith lords.  I could be a prince one day and a princess the next.  Even as a child though, I had strong desires to be female.  The kind where you get so depressed because you just can't accept that it can't happen, and you cry and cry.
As puberty happened, these feelings intensified.  But I can't say entirely, the focus was in the heart and not in the body.  As far as the body goes, it was my new best friend. 
I mean really, I discovered if I squeezed my legs together really hard or if I humped something, it felt good.  The best way some of you could describe it is discovering that after surgery when you press a certain button, you get a dose of morphine.
At about 13 though, I'd somehow come to the conclusion of what I was and what I had to do, and I did it.  I tried to transition smoothly, but somehow it got botched up when I went to the first day of school the next year in a skirt.  Noone knew I wasn't a girl.  All they saw was some hyperactive very friendly girl that for the first three days of school was become a major hit.  Then the rumors started... and by the end of a day somehow noone would friggin shutup about me, and it wasn't that nice what they were saying either.  In the end I was put off the mones and made to go through my birth-assigned puberty, to some degree.
Those times were the only times in my life i felt myself.  Those are the times in my life I wish more than anything I could go back to, which obviously says it means I was pretty damned happy.

Quote from: Nero on June 12, 2008, 09:11:57 PM
I want to know about the androgyne child and dysphoria.

I'm not sure I ever was one. I knew I was a boy -- there was plenty of evidence -- and although I wanted to be a girl I just thought that was something boys did (I did and I was a boy, q.e.d.). I didn't really succeed at being happy doing boys' stuff, though, and eventually the 'male' role I drifted into was a pretty nerdy one. That role later developed into a full-fledged androgyne gender role and identity, but I don't think it started that way.

Puberty was a weird experience, and not especially in a nice way. The testosterone made me behave in a lot of ways like a pubescent boy did, and while I realised it at the time that didn't really help. On the one hand I was dismayed by the physical changes, on the other hand happy that at least in this I was fitting in. And of course, I've since understood most boys dream about having sex with the cutest girl in their class, not as her.

  Nfr

I never fit in and I do know that I always felt different never had many friends my "action figures" spent more time kissing than fighting each other I've seen my body as ugly for as long as i can remember I hit puberty before most of my class and was teased because of it.  I don't remember much of my childhood or teen years Not sure how much is because I don't want to remember it and how much was removed by doctors as part of my treatment for my brain tumor I can remember more bad than good times which is sad because i know i had good times to.

I did not even realize there was much of a difference until I went to school (catholic) boys on one side, girls on the other.  It never seemed to bother me except to the degree that if I ever got beat at any school stuff it was by one of the girls.  I hung out with girls in my neighborhood, but they did not go to my school.

By high school I had met some people, hippies, yippies, yappies and all that, they were freaks, so was I.  I fit in because I had some skills that they could use, and some of the girls liked me, helped me, and did other things too.

Hmm...good question!  Well, I always played with boys.  All my cousins were boys, my best friends in primary school were boys.  I played sports and was generally considered a 'tomboy'.  I do think that I wanted to be a boy, but I thought it was okay because we're the same except for the bits.

Puberty was pretty awful.  I hated getting my period and having to wear a bra and shave and all that girly crap.  I tried to be like other girls, but I realized that I had no idea what I was doing.  Mimicking can only get you so far, you know?  So I did the best I could, but I think a lot of people thought I was weird...or a lesbian (still not sure why that came up and still comes up so often...I've never shown any indications that I like girls...rather, my bedroom walls were COVERED with pictures of boys...gotta love those teeny bopper magazines...well, in middle school at least).

I kind of always picked things that were considered more masculine...like in band, I was in the percussion section and in marching band I played the tenors (or quints/quads...whatever you want to call them)...it's pretty rare to find a girl playing them or snare (actually, our line was mostly girls for a while, but anyway).  I focused on math and science (because I thought I had to, but I was actually okay at them in high school...college, not so much).  I was the only girl on the varsity academic team my senior year (let's just tattoo "GEEK" on my forehead right now).  I always related to boys in the books I read or movies I saw.  I listened to the same music my guy friends did and read the books that they did.  My interests always lie more with guys than girls, usually.

Mostly, I tried to push all those feelings away.  But deep down I definitely knew that I wanted to be a boy.  (not a man though, a boy...I think being a man would be scarier than being a woman in some ways...)  One of the best compliments I ever got was my cousin saying I throw like a boy when we were playing catch.

Actually, my grandmother would always call us 'boys' when we came in (that would be me, my female cousin, or our neighbors female granddaughters)...that always made me happy.

'twas puberty what done in old Reebs.

I just remembered something.  When I played house with my cousin, I was always the daddy and she was the mommy.  It wasn't like we talked about it or anything, that's just how it was.  (it wasn't something we did often, just one or two times...but I distinctly remember being the daddy and being happy about it)

Quote from: Annwyn on June 13, 2008, 07:54:15 AM
Androgyne child?  I ran around all day slaying dragons and sith lords.  I could be a prince one day and a princess the next.  Even as a child though, I had strong desires to be female.  The kind where you get so depressed because you just can't accept that it can't happen, and you cry and cry.
As puberty happened, these feelings intensified.  But I can't say entirely, the focus was in the heart and not in the body.  As far as the body goes, it was my new best friend. 
I mean really, I discovered if I squeezed my legs together really hard or if I humped something, it felt good.  The best way some of you could describe it is discovering that after surgery when you press a certain button, you get a dose of morphine.
At about 13 though, I'd somehow come to the conclusion of what I was and what I had to do, and I did it.  I tried to transition smoothly, but somehow it got botched up when I went to the first day of school the next year in a skirt.  Noone knew I wasn't a girl.  All they saw was some hyperactive very friendly girl that for the first three days of school was become a major hit.  Then the rumors started... and by the end of a day somehow noone would friggin shutup about me, and it wasn't that nice what they were saying either.  In the end I was put off the mones and made to go through my birth-assigned puberty, to some degree.
Those times were the only times in my life i felt myself.  Those are the times in my life I wish more than anything I could go back to, which obviously says it means I was pretty damned happy.

GO ON AIM TOMORROW SO WE CAN TALK. =l Your experiences are touching, and curious to me, cause our approach is so different.

-Xen

I remember quite bit about my childhood. The earliest toy I remember was my Pinocchio doll. My friend from pre-school days was Elaine, who lived next door. In kindergarten, the teacher, Miss Mannheimer, took the class photo, but all you can see of me is the very top of my head. I was the second shortest all through elementary school, only Daniel Ratner was smaller (one of the delights of visiting in Italy in later days has been the ability to see over crowds).

I played dolls with girls and football with boys (and was the first among my friends to throw a spiral pass). There was a time about fourth grade when boys would harass girls. I went along with that for a short while, decided it was stupid, and went back to being friends with both sexes. In elementary school sports, when we chose teams, I was typically among the last to be chosen. In high school gym, we often had the option of playing pickup basketball or sitting on the sidelines chatting, while the teachers concentrated on the more athletically talented. I chose chatting. As a college freshman, I chose a year of ROTC to escape the gym requirement.

A lot of fighting was the rule in my neighborhood. I never felt it was directed at me personally. At some point, it occurred to me that I rarely lost a fight, because I stoically took whatever was dished out until the attacker tired.  As the years went on, and the attackers graduated to knives, I learned to keep them talking indefinitely. I was never willing to fight with weapons; local police advised me to learn to do so or move out. That was about the time my parents moved the family to the suburbs.

A museum, housed in a castle brought from Spain, was across the street from my elementary school. Its collection consisted largely of armor, ships' figureheads, antique musical instruments, and Frederick Remington paintings of the old West. It was a super place to dream, but you had to get someone 12 or older to go with you. Down the street was a branch of the public library. I used to carry home an armload of books (14 was the maximum allowed) every fortnight. After I'd read every history book in the young peoples section, I started in on the adult collection. What I'd read and learned carried me through high school with a minimum of further studying.

Tuesdays, my mother would take me to the Children's Symphony concerts. Saturdays, the train would carry me downtown. My first stop would be the Natural History Museum to walk through the displays and take in the weekly movie. Then the Art Institute, and lunch at DeMet's. After lunch, I'd wander along the lake to the Aquarium, Planetarium, and small airport. Generally by myself.

I was never ostracized nor lacked for friends. Nor was I ever aware of an "In" group. Friends regarded me as a "brain", though my grades were never the highest. When the family moved to the suburbs and when I went to college in another state, I lost contact with all childhood friends.

I spent a lot of time in the kitchen watching my mother cook. Regrettably, by the time I thought to ask for recipes, she already was developing Alzheimer's. She had me follow my dad around as he puttered so I would learn from him.

Puberty didn't make a big impact. I remember sitting next to Grete when we were six, listening to the children's choir, lamenting that boys voices need change. When my beard came in, I was excited to receive one of those newfangled electric shavers. But that toy lost interest when shaving became a daily chore, adding time to my already lengthy morning ritual. Never have I been anything but slow. A friend once showed me some crude pornography. Boring. I regarded sex as overrated. Girls have always been friends, but have to remind me that they occasionally like being regarded as sexual objects.

Christine Jorgenson made news as I was beginning puberty. I read her biography while standing at the book rack in the drugstore, and wished I could be her. But I had no interest in the showgirl role she chose nor in interacting romantically with men, so sex change quickly ceased to be an option. As schoolwork, which had come so easily, became a puzzle I couldn't seem to solve, any thoughts of dysphoria were shoved in the background. I worried that my looks were so feminine, and my interests so un-masculine, that I would be found out at a glance. Gradually I settled with just quietly being me. At one time, I thought I could get along with anyone, but have found I do upset some, and their reaction upsets me in return. Nero, I always identify with your one-time tagline: my mouth gets me in trouble, too.

This posting is probably longer than any of you will read, but between my daughter's graduation, my brother-in-law's wedding, and my mother-in-law's visit, I have not had the opportunity to post in a while and it's all been building up inside.

Wishing all a quiet Sunday,
S

Nice to see you again, Simone!

Quote from: Nero on June 12, 2008, 09:11:57 PM
I want to know about the androgyne child and dysphoria. I want to know how you felt as a child regarding your gender id. I want to know if you experienced discomfort going through puberty. What you felt about your body changing.

I was probably between 5 and 7 years old when I first something along the lines of "Oh, well, I was born a boy and there's nothing I can do about it. I don't get to wear skirts, makeup and earrings."

Like many young boys, I thought girls had cooties and I didn't want anything to do with them. At the same time, I was fascinated by and envious of their appearances.

By puberty, I had begun to wish I'd develop some bizarre life-threatening illness that could only be cured with a sex-change operation.

I wouldn't think much about these things for a long time. Throughout highschool I pursued girlfriends, though the first time I had sex was with another boy. My only regret there was that I lacked the self-confidence to respond in the way I think I should have.

Quote from: Nero
And about the social part. If you had trouble fitting in or being ostricized with your birth sex peers or just in general what it was like socially.

Socially, I was ostracized. I think part of this had to do with my stutter, which was pretty bad when I was a kid. Also, I was skinny, weaker, and slower than most kids my age. I hated being called girly and vehemently denied being gay. By highschool, I was covered in body hair. This served to raise my manly status in the eyes of my peers, most of whom were hairless. I could take off my shirt in the lockerroom and boldly declare to my detractors that all that hair was due to BALLS!

Hey, I was 16. Whaddya expect?

I think another reason I was ostracized was that I really didn't like sports and didn't understand how cars worked. Oh, and I would cry when I got hurt. Boys, apparently, aren't supposed to do that.

But the one I really didn't understand was how my musical tastes were supposed commentaries on my sexuality and gender identity.

Nowadays, I'm pretty much a recluse. I'd like to think that I'm not unfriendly, but the truth is that I can be.

My childhood wasn't that profound. As i've spoken of before I don't fit in, and as a child that was a brutal environment in the schoolyard. I eventually became a loner and I learned not to trust people (and i'm still the same today). Instead, I learned to do solitary things like read and explore the woods around where I lived. I also hung out with the misfits, and while none of us were happy at least we all belonged to a group. I also happened to be a rather bright kid, and when I cared (most times I didn't) I could turn out spectacular schoolwork. Rather, I found school boring, and really didn't care much about it. I carried my "difference" into my mid 40's when I finally figured it out. It was a long time to be under that cloud. There was a lot to hate about my childhood 

QuoteI want to know how you felt as a child regarding your gender id. I want to know if you experienced discomfort going through puberty. What you felt about your body changing.

I didn't feel much of anything. I don't really hate the gender I am now. My gender is just a roll of the dice. I could've been the opposite sex, and it wouldn't have mattered all that much. Let me add that although I don't hate my gender, I don't like it much either.

QuoteAnd about the social part. If you had trouble fitting in or being ostricized with your birth sex peers or just in general what it was like socially.

Yes I had some trouble fitting in. I wasn't exactly like the others. I never did feel quite right. One of the things I hated was gym class in middle school. Unlike most everyone else who seemed to really enjoy athletics, I would rather take a low grade and just sit out. I also took a lot of teasing in that class. I was an easy target because of my personality and my behavior.

After middle school I became a real loner. I lost touch with virtually all my friends. I didn't really make any new ones. High school was just really boring. I would usually bring a book to class because it was so boring to listen to the teacher's lectures.

So things weren't as good as I'm making it out to be.

I would think that being equally comfortable with both boys and girls was one of the better parts of this.

Thanks for telling me how off the mark and obvious I was. The last thing I want to do is to be disrespectful to the people who wrote such good things before me.

I don't want to derail this topic. You don't have to reply to this.

Quote from: je on June 16, 2008, 12:18:17 PM
Thanks for telling me how off the mark and obvious I was. The last thing I want to do is to be disrespectful.

Je, I didn't find anything offensive or disrespectful in your posts!

Z

Quote from: tekla on June 16, 2008, 09:32:03 AM
I would think that being equally comfortable with both boys and girls was one of the better parts of this.

It is nowadays. Back in school, well, it didn't help all that much to have twice as many people to be shy with.

  Nfr