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Dark thoughts

Started by Terra, March 22, 2006, 05:29:50 PM

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Terra

Suicide has been a constent companion to me. Every day I always wake up and ask "why"? Why do I get up? Why do I live? Why do I even care? THe answer varies. When I am falling for someone I live for them. Recently the answer was for my country, my friends and comrades in the forces. But a few times I only lived because I had no choice but to live. God forbids suicide, but in the end, how do you define this?

After much thought and searching I think suicide is not simply the taking of your own life. It is also the refusal to protect said life. To lose your spark and not try to rekindle it somehow. Afterall, what difference is putting a gun to your head and rushing recklessly towards a gunman. Noble as it is, you know what the likely result is. If you have absolutly no regard for your own life, do we not call you suicidal?

I'm starting this thread because I want people to know two things. First, suicidal thoughts according to my psycologist are perfectly normal. It is our brains 'emergency escape route' and helps us cope. The thing to remember is not to dwell on them. The second is for those planning to do or look for 'loopholes' in the Christian belief system, this isn't one. I know they are out there, because this is how I came to these conclusions.

Now its your turn, your thoughts.
"If you quit before you try, you don't deserve to dream." -grandmother
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madison

Sadly it is too easy sometimes to dwell on the negative, which seems to obfuscate all that is beautiful and happy. Eventually it becomes a way of thinking instead of a temporary state of being. When I get down, I create a little mantra, to help reverse the cycle. Something as simple as, "I am committed to living." Right now it is, "I will be a successful writer."

Unfortunately my views on spirituality are extremely fluid, and somewhat humanistic, so i have a difficult time relating with Christianity or other belief systems with strict rules on thought and behavior. I did grow up in a Christian envirnoment though, and do remember and grasp the thoughts and emotions such a belief system can incubate.

However, if I may remove the Christain arguments against suicide, the real point is in your statement, "It is also a refusal to spark life. To lose your spark and not try to rekindle it somehow." Regardless of your belief system, the fact is we are alive, whatever that means, and suicide is a terrible escape from what is typically little more than passing pain or suffering. Being alive most people will find joy and sorrow, and for some reason sorrow and despair are powerful modes that seem to overwhelm and make us incapable of savoring the inherent joy of the next new experience.

Suicide is an awful proposition, as in most cases it indicates an internal sense of failure or futility. Being more existential and/or humanist in my world view, this is often made all the worse, as I don't have anything except the here and now, this single life to believe in, to cherish, to keep me going. I can get depressed considering big bang theory and the possibility of a closed universe, where regardless of how advanced or enlightened the human race becomes, there will eventually be no universe to exist within. How silly is that? Something that wouldn't even MAYBE happen in a time frame incomprehensible to me can give me a sense of futility. Then make it personal, how futile life seems, when I am happily sitting here wearing a halter top and skirt, and constantly have lurking in the back my mind what would happen if the neighbors suddenly dropped by to say hello or complain about how crappy our yard looks. Afraid of being judged, afraid of being discovered, for just being me.

So what then? I could dwell on the difficulities inherent in my life. Or I could appreciate the fact that I am here communicating with you. I could think about the fun time I will have later watching Mr. Show with friends later tonight. Or maybe I could begin fretting about whether or not I will wear a skirt tonight and whether my friends will begin to tire of my little "hobby/fetish". I could think about all these things, but ultimately I find it much healthier and happier to simply be here now, and take each moment as it comes, and not spend too much time worrying about things that may or may not be real, and invariably will only bring me down.

But this still does not address the religious aspect of your post. As your psychologist stated, suicidal thoughts are perfectly normal. We can study the real chemistry behind how humans function and make such logical conclusions. Thus, regardless of your belief system, it seems that we have been given or simply possess that ability for coping, a release valve if you will, and if you believe in God, then it seems silly to think that God didn't want us to have that free will, to have that coping mechanism. And if you do believe in God, then there are certain codes of behavior that must be adhered to, and that there is no loophole for suicide. Suicide is freewill enacted. But if you believe in God, then actually committing suicide is an abuse of the freewill given to us by the creator, and I see it only as a good thing. Looking for a "loophole" seems to me like fighting for, striving for the nerve to actually do it. But why? If you are Christian, then life is holy and following the tenets of your faith seem paramount. I am reminded of Job. Living for God is reason enough for living at all. And if you aren't Christian, or of a belief system that "permits" suicide then you have even more freewill to make that choice. But why? With that much freewill comes the power and opportunity of infinite possibility, which sounds a whole lot more exciting than cashing in the chips. Living for our own personal values, just to see what happens next, what we can give, what we can experience, is reason enough for living at all.

I hate to see so much saddness, especially here on this forum. Yet I can't help but think that addressing these issues is a big part of this forum, of life in general; of acknowledging and contemplating the human experience. And sadness is an intrinsically part of life as joy.

I can only say, "Choose to live." Why? Because it just makes too much sense. You think deciding what to wear is a difficult to decision? At least a bad outfit can be remedied. Regardless of belief system, suicide is not something easily remedied. As a Christian the consequences are potentially severe. As a humanist, it is simply the end and undoable. And even if you believe in reincarnation, at best you end up as a devolved being in the next life and have to "suffer" through so many more lives, just to get back to having this same discussion in another life.

I hope my words bring light to a darkness in your life. As an aside, I learned to savor my sad dark feelings through cinema. I can live those difficult human experiences through characters in a story, fall comletely into it, but when its over I feel purged, cleansed somehow. Just an extra thought. Take care and I hope you find your day well Luana.
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Terra

Well, as I move closer to transition, I hope these feelings will deminish or even disapear. ;)
"If you quit before you try, you don't deserve to dream." -grandmother
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HelenW

I believe in reincarnation after death.

I believe we choose the lives we have in order to learn a series of specific lessons.

I think that suicide means that you're dropping out of class and that it'll have to be done over again.  You'll have to repeat.  What a disgusting waste that would be!

I don't want to waste all that I have lived and go through it all again.  Dealing with suicidal thoughts is part of the lesson too.

helen
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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Kimberly

Quote from: Luana on March 22, 2006, 05:29:50 PM...
But a few times I only lived because I had no choice but to live. God forbids suicide, but in the end, how do you define this?
...
If you want my `God is busy playing dice` view of it, that means simply you have some (important) part to play in your own existence or someone else's.


Quote from: HelenW on March 22, 2006, 08:43:11 PM...
I think that suicide means that you're dropping out of class and that it'll have to be done over again.  You'll have to repeat.  What a disgusting waste that would be!
...
Or that you have learned what you needed/wanted to learn and the rest is just fluff.
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jan c

Kimberly your answer to the repeating the class (OR NOT!) analogy* highlights the fact of your imagination (so much of what I see in this realm of mortals/mortality is about a failure of imagination).
(*: as well as the 'God is busy playing dice' view)
I am impressed.
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HelenW

"Or that you have learned what you needed/wanted to learn and the rest is just fluff."

I think the only way to really know for sure that you've learned all that you should have in this lifetime is to die by a method other than your own hand.  My crystal ball is too cloudy to be able to tell me if future experiences are what I need or not and I don't know anyone clairvoyant enough to tell me.  So I maintain that suicide is a waste of a lifetime.

Not to mention a really rotten thing to do to the ones you've left behind.

helen
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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Kate Thomas

My suicidal thoughts are constant and countless. Popping into my brain any time. Twice they have driven me to the brink.  For over twenty years I have dealt with them Many times I have had days where my only job was to somehow make it through the day without doing myself in. I did make it and the next day was better. The main reason for not doing it has been knowing what devastation it would cause to my loved ones. The one question they could never answer if I did. WHY? It is a question that I could not answer myself. Having seen and experienced firsthand the devastation other suicides have wrought.

I have a promise to myself that if things take me to the brink again I will check myself into to hospital. This is what I did last time around.
I had such a bad day that I had decided ether I was going to act on my thoughts or I was going to check myself in. once I decided to go to the hospital I became calm and went on autopilot. I told the admitting clerk that I was going to do harm to myself and was quickly and quietly taken to the ER for evaluation. Later checked into an observation room for the night. After a good night's rest thanks to drugs, I was re-evaluated
Released the next afternoon, feeling a bit silly about the whole thing, but knowing it was what needed to be done.

Yes I have had therapy, and a multitude of drugs.  None effective.

if you have such thoughts, make a plan for your self to prevent them from becoming  true.
Promise now that you will stop your selfdestruction when it looks to be the only choice.

Huggs
Kate Alice
"But who is that on the other side of you?"
T.S. Eliot
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jan c

Quote from: HelenW on April 15, 2006, 10:35:05 AM
"Or that you have learned what you needed/wanted to learn and the rest is just fluff."

I think the only way to really know for sure that you've learned all that you should have in this lifetime is to die by a method other than your own hand.  My crystal ball is too cloudy to be able to tell me if future experiences are what I need or not and I don't know anyone clairvoyant enough to tell me.  So I maintain that suicide is a waste of a lifetime.


This's a bit of a stretch, but these thoughts arrived and here I go...
My thought on this, Helen, is more complex than that; what you've said is pretty obvious in most cases of course. There may be some situations of having gotten to a point of diminishing returns on a very expensive and wearing investment. Old souls having been there and done that one or three times too many.

Here's an e. g.: WA Mozart did not take very good care of himself, and died very young. Not a suicide, per se, but perhaps by degrees. It may be true that his life was exactly as long THAT TIME AROUND as it needed to be. I have seen people that have outlived their proper function by some yardage.
By contrast to an evolved soul that lives fast, absorbs the lesson and moves on is a tendency today - see Dr Nick Perricone making big bux convincing moneyed Boomers they can live on and on and on if they are paranoid enough about their health to, say never have a cup o' coffee ever again - to try and outrun the reaper. Literally. That time spent running equaling exactly the time added to the end, or perhaps less.
Now me, I am on a Mishin Frum Gahd this trip, and am immortal anyways. I wake up every day with a song in my heart, quite literally. But I can understand a burden that's grown too heavy.
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LostInTime

I can understand the thoughts of suicide as I feel closer to that edge than I have in a long time.  MOF, I am thinking it is just a matter of time at this point.  How much more can I take before I say enough?  However, I do not believe in a higher being or beings so that is not what is holding me back.  Everything ends.
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HelenW

"There may be some situations of having gotten to a point of diminishing returns on a very expensive and wearing investment. Old souls having been there and done that one or three times too many."

I heartily agree that this idea is a stretch.  Past the elastic limit if you ask me.  I apologize in advance for shouting, but:

SUICIDE IS NEVER AN APPROPRIATE OPTION!

I don't care who you are.  An "old soul" would recognize this inherently, imo.  And I think that anyone's judgement of how short of or how far past the age of "proper function" any other person is, simply isn't our call to make.  How the hello would I know what others need to accomplish in their lives?

W.A. Mozart didn't take particularly good care of himself because no one at the time did.  Anyone who knows his music will be able to tell that he was never suicidal.  Sadness, sure, that's only human, but even his darkest works have a sense of hope and life behind them.  I can never listen to any of Mozart's music, from K1 to K626, without being uplifted. (And very impressed too!)

I read an interesting article in a medical mag while waiting at a doctor's office that made a good argument for trichinosis as his cause of death, by the way.  An underdone pork chop was what very well could have killed one of the greatest musical geniuses of all time.  Hardly a case of self-immolation.

helen
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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jan c

(Well this thread was meant to be dark, but I need to bring some light) Anyone here that feels like really can't get there from here as far as "can't go on", feel free to contact me: PM me, or via my regular email, I have messaging at hotmail, we can chat, whatever. I have plenty of spark o' life to share.


Posted at: April 16, 2006, 08:47:44 AM

Quote from: HelenW on April 16, 2006, 10:46:08 AM
"There may be some situations of having gotten to a point of diminishing returns on a very expensive and wearing investment. Old souls having been there and done that one or three times too many."

I heartily agree that this quote is a stretch.  Past the elastic limit if you ask me.  I apologize in advance for shouting, but:

SUICIDE IS NEVER AN APPROPRIATE OPTION!

I don't care who you are.  An "old soul" would recognize this inherently, imo.

W.A. Mozart didn't take particularly good care of himself because no one at the time did.  Anyone who knows his music will be able to tell that he was never suicidal.  Sadness, sure, that's only human, but even his darkest works have a sense of hope and life behind them. 
helen

An artist of that sensitivity that genius that Particular Damage (as you said, no one took care of him, in fact he was pretty much exploited by everyone, and had a little trouble getting paid sometimes), Never Suicidal? Please. I am very happy these days, but I got a real bad case of Poison Oak recently, "and I can't go on!" for about thirty miliseconds I did feel that way.
Let me try again: can you not imagine, "Not again! I have learned this lesson precisely, and more than once, and it is time to move on. Not my cross to bear this time."?

Now past any esoteric discussion: a suicide emergency is a person with the ideation, the means, and the opportunity. Anyone meets two of these three criteria need to talk with someone real quick. I am available.
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HelenW

Jan, you wrote, "...can you not imagine, 'Not again! I have learned this lesson precisely, and more than once, and it is time to move on. Not my cross to bear this time.'?"


Yes, I can imagine thinking it and I still maintain that it isn't appropriate.  I believe that having the same experience over again proves that you have NOT learned the lesson precisely, let alone more than once.

I cannot in good conscience, agree to a proposal that, even though this may be a disagreement over a hypothetical situation, a severely depressed person visiting this site can use to justify their suicide.

helen

btw - I love your avatar.  It's amazing what a haircut and a coat of paint can do, isn't it?
FKA: Emelye

Pronouns: she/her

My rarely updated blog: http://emelyes-kitchen.blogspot.com

Southwestern New York trans support: http://www.southerntiertrans.org/
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jan c

Quote from: HelenW on April 16, 2006, 11:24:29 AM
Jan, you wrote, "...can you not imagine, 'Not again! I have learned this lesson precisely, and more than once, and it is time to move on. Not my cross to bear this time.'?"


Yes, I can imagine thinking it and I still maintain that it isn't appropriate.  I believe that having the same experience over again proves that you have NOT learned the lesson precisely, let alone more than once.

NOW we're talking! I hoped we could get there! Right On!
I was speaking in terms of is this hell, or heaven? I appreciate your faith that it is the latter. In any case of the hypothetical absurdity I have posited, there is a lesson to be learned. I was fearing a failure of the imagination, and you came thru! I did not want to hit that nail on the head myself. You go girl!

Yes, saw that pic on a fangirl site and had to have it: 'underneath it all' can go both ways; me, I resemble the picture on the left at best, but underneath it all... in my heart o' hearts...
I can dance real beautiful though.
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LoneWolf

I have considered suicide so many times, not only have I lost count, and did make one attempt, but the knife I was going to use was missing, and I no longer fear death nor dying, which frightens me.
QuoteI believe in reincarnation after death.
That is the only reason I haven't killed myself. Maybe this is Karma, and if I kill myself, I will be forced to live this hell again.
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Bmore

My personal experiences color my words, but I can't help but wonder what is left when we turn off the lights and have only ourselves left as illumination? What happens when the last thing you take to your death, is your physical mind in despair of itself? What does that fell like when there are no exits out, not even the possibility of change the physical body guarantees, even with all it's flawed inconsistencies? Those ghosts that go creaking mournfully through rotting old houses, do they realize there is a way out? Did they realize there was a way out when they took a rope,a blade, a bullet, to a way out that lead now wheres?
Even the darkest thoughts change with the passing of time, not so when we turn out the lights, finally and irrevocably. I lived for many years with someone who tried to kill themselves repeatidly, if only to stop the horrors in their mind. They chose to heal instead, it took a long time, as do all things in life. They are gratefull now, they did not make the life of their spirit the final resting place and unending torment of their darkest thoughts. Some people think suicide is an answer to the pain of life, but what if there was an answer in life, a therapy, a drug, an experience, a miracle... the ticket was only time, but they punched the ticket too early to know the real answer. What if Hell is a place populated by our regrets, without the possiblity of forgetting, without the possiblity of change?
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jaded

 lone wolf i dont think i fear death at all either i mean sometimes a person feels  what can be worse than this ? do we all think of suicide as an alternative? is the only way out of these thoughts transition
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Rosie

 Hi
I have as most been restling many times with dark thoughts to end it all. Lost my mom May 2001, she was my best friend in all this world.I wanted end it all at that point. But, her moms words, my grandmothers, runs thru my head every time  l went there to think need end this life..
She always said,"You never solve problems by taking your own life over something temporary.To do so is a perment soluton for a temporary problem.Better to stand still allow problem to hurt or burn for a moment in time.At least that way you are still here too fix the problem."
Yes, l agree is normal thinking to end it all an think of grief we have.But, never act from grief. Wait allow pain to pass ..wake next day smell flowers. You know what.. I promise they smell sweeter next day ..and the next.
My mom was very supportive of my gender issues..loosing her was to almost loose my own life.Then,9-1-1 made see life very differently. How so ->-bleeped-<-ile we all are.Here one minute gone the next.Pain an anguish constant companions, loss to me in spirit of my mom never goes never fades. But, gets easer thru time.Music sooths my spirit. I have used it to heal myself. I can remember good and bad times cry laugh be happy or sad. But, music helps very much.
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Sarah Louise

Music is the only thing that has gotten me through the last few weeks.  Music does calm the soul and brings your mind and body back into one being.

I am so out of it this morning that I am having trouble forming complete thoughts.  My eyes, hands and mind are on different pages and not working together very well.

Sarah L.
Nameless here for evermore!;  Merely this, and nothing more;
Tis the wind and nothing more!;  Quoth the Raven, "Nevermore!!"
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debbee

Here is some thoughts Susan and I put down about dark thoughts about 4 years ago

This part is by Susan Larsen

Recently due in part to events in my life, a television show, and the steady progress of time. I have been thinking thoughts of death. We each march inexorably closer to it with every breath we take. Everyone must deal with death in his or her lifetime. It may be a close friend tragically taken from you by an automobile accident, it may be a dear loved one or child who commits suicide, it may be simply someone you know who is taken by a heart attack early on a cold morning.



How we deal with death defines our very being. There are many differing ways to deal with death. You can bury yourself in grief letting it totally overwhelm your life. You can disconnect from all around you totally suppressing your emotions. Or you can celebrate the life of the person, celebrate the many large and the small ways that they made the lives of the people around them better. You can of course miss them greatly. Each passing will leave it's marks in your life however even these will fade over time.



Some of us deal with the thoughts of our own death at many times in our personal lives. Our lives seem to be at a halt. Our personal growth seems stunted. We lost a job. We lost family by divorce or death. We feel aimless and that it has become pointless to continue. We feel the numbness of death would be a welcome relief. We would be wrong. You can celebrate the life of someone that lived it and took it all as it came. However, you can but mourn in grief the life of someone who refused to give it a chance.



Like a fruit on a fruit tree each person starts out as a bud in life. We are a potential that must blossom in order to fulfil the purpose of our life. We bear fruit be it by bearing children or be it by influencing the lives of those around us for the better. Then as all fruit must eventually do we fall from the tree. This is nature's way as the verse heard at so many funerals "Ashes to ashes and dust to dust" makes so very clear.



The moral of this story is simple. While you might consider suicide in your life be sure that you discard that promptly as a choice. Live life, enjoys the good, and cry over the bad. Never attempt to end that what can become better than your wildest dreams. Remember while facing death can help to refocus your hopes thoughts, and dreams. Suicide will end them forever.



This Part is written by myself

The fact that we think about suicide is it to die or is it just not to live. This is an important thing to decide. I have found that I wanted not to live. You may think that this is a funny way to answer but how come you say? Well to answer this is that I didn't want to handle the pain that I was facing, the loneliness at home, my medical problems and any other little problem I faced in normal life.



When you are in a situation of depression or such like that makes you feel this way you think well if you don't want to live the other is to die. You find it difficult in these times to comprehend that all you want to do is not face time or anything else. So your other option is to die!



After I had time to start to recover and thinking about it, wasn't that I wanted to die but in fact I didn't want to live to face the next day the next hour the next min the next sec. You may say why didn't I end up killing my self, well that's a good question?

I was very fortunate to have friends around who it didn't matter what time of day or nite I called on them they were there to listen to the things I was saying and feeling the feelings and the things I said were jumbled and they had to work hard to understand me.



They never tried to tell me I was doing wrong or right they never  judged me all they did was listen cried, laughed out loud and worried like hell about me but never showed it. When I asked for advice they gave it to me soft and gentle but not hard nosed and slowly and slowly more and more I started to see what I was really wanting, not to die but I just didn't want to face the world with out the love of the one I loved.



So I now started to just slowly live only second to second then after a while day to day and that's where I am now. Its not fun looking that ugly beast in the face and walk away from it, may be by luck maybe by fortune or may be because my friends cared enough to support me when I needed them.. I am one of the lucky ones I had everything ready to go to finish me of and stop the pain but I am here



In here id like to thank those who helped me I wont mention names but you know who you are. I thank you for stopping me from inflicting pain on my family and my many friends. I thank you for something I will never be able to repay you for ever. You know who you are.





I wish to add to my post with a few more thoughts and that is that when you enter and face the beast of death it hit and meet it harder and longer every time you meet him. When you meet the beast you seem to meet him longer and longer every time. You then can find it harder and harder to walk away from it.



I have met the beast more times than I would like to admit to and I speak form my own opinion. What I have found is when you feel the start of this go and see some people and tell them that you think you may be sinking and you want to know can you call them if needed. I had over 12 people and places I could go call  when I was at my worst this last time. But I didn't use many of them but here at XXXX  I found that I was more of a person that people care about me more than anywhere else I have ever been. I am talking net and in person here


Regards

Debbee
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