This was said to me by my ex who is still in denial over my coming out.  I've been trying to educate him, giving him online links, books, videos, all excellent resources I previewed myself, and were recommended by other transguys or by my therapists.

His conclusion is that because I haven't been screaming that "I am MALE! or I am a BOY!" since I was a toddler, that I'm probably not trans and just delusional (not his words but implied).  And since I was never read as male, never presented as butch, am not a lesbian, that I can't possibly really truly be ftm (cuz those other trans guys were).

We have an appt with a counselor this week, so I'm just venting.  I have no doubt I'm trans.  I sometimes get a flash of OMG, am I really truly going to transition??  as T and hysto are looming large.

And I did stand up for myself at work this weekend. My job is basically to put out fires, not literally, LOL, but I do a lot of troubleshooting and initial fixes, then the day crew takes over and rips off the bandaid to find more permanent solutions.  One of my coworkers got in my face wanting to know if I did X & Y on a case, and I just said NO.   That threw her, because I didn't avert my eyes and made no excuses, just flat out no I didnt' do it (didn't occur to me, honestly, and doing X & Y didn't seem necessary in light of extinguishing flames, LOL).  Wow.  Ordinarily I would have flushed and felt incompetent and stupid for not thinking of it.  But not this time.

Now I'm rambling.

Jay, who is happy with NEW MAN GLASSES!!! 

Yeah. I'm not trans enough because I like men, because I don't want a cock, because I like intercourse with men, etc, etc, etc

There is no such thing as not trans enough.

Quote from: sneakersjay on June 23, 2008, 07:09:37 PM
His conclusion is that because I haven't been screaming that "I am MALE! or I am a BOY!" since I was a toddler, that I'm probably not trans and just delusional (not his words but implied).  And since I was never read as male, never presented as butch, am not a lesbian, that I can't possibly really truly be ftm (cuz those other trans guys were).

There are many factors that could contribute to not shouting out your incongurency from the rooftops as soon as you could talk.  Lack of information about transexualism, lack of exploring one's mental self, denial of being ts, or a being in a trans-hostile environment could be why some people do not admit it at such an early age.  From what I have read of your comments on this forum, I would venture to say that your case is a combination of the first and last of these factors listed. 

Not being read as male might be because back then you did not try to be read as male, trying your hardest to make that uncomfortable squeeze into the box that society has labeled for you as female.

As for not presenting as butch and being lesbian, why should make you any less of an ftm.  There are bio males who are very much male but who are effeminate and/or gay, so why can it not be so for an ftm?

Transitioning is not about exchanging one pair of social shackles for another, its about breaking out of those shackles and being free to just be.

Quote from: noxdraconis on June 23, 2008, 07:46:26 PM

There are many factors that could contribute to not shouting out your incongurency from the rooftops as soon as you could talk.  Lack of information about transexualism, lack of exploring one's mental self, denial of being ts, or a being in a trans-hostile environment could be why some people do not admit it at such an early age.  From what I have read of your comments on this forum, I would venture to say that your case is a combination of the first and last of these factors listed. 

Exactly.  I had misinformation about what it was to be a transsexual, a repressed, homophobic, religious upbringing, a dad with a wooden paddle who spanked if we didn't obey, we consequently did as we were told with minimal protest, etc. 

QuoteNot being read as male might be because back then you did not try to be read as male, trying your hardest to make that uncomfortable squeeze into the box that society has labeled for you as female.

I passed as a boy until I was 12 (used men's rooms, etc), and once puberty hit I hated the changes to my body and became anorexic.  I tried very hard to fit into the female mold, and had longer hair and earrings, though I mostly wore jeans and flannel shirts.  I went to a religious college where skirts were mandatory and had huge issues with that as they make my skin crawl, literally.  ::shudder::

QuoteAs for not presenting as butch and being lesbian, why should make you any less of an ftm.  There are bio males who are very much male but who are effeminate and/or gay, so why can it not be so for an ftm?

I'm still trying to figure out my sexuality, having always identified as straight female, but now realizing that I'm not attracted to men as a male.  In any case, being a lesbian growing up wouldn't have been any easier than being trans, still taboo, still no information forthcoming, and if I were lesbian I would have been in denial about that as well.

QuoteTransitioning is not about exchanging one pair of social shackles for another, its about breaking out of those shackles and being free to just be.

Definitely don't want shackles.  I've finally broken through the plexiglass box I've been living in my whole life, that unseen barrier that kept me from being me all this time.  I won't put the lid back on, nor will I jump into another box.  I just want to be ME, Jonathan Ellis F****** for the first time in my life.

Jay

Jay, I know this is completely off topic and for that I apologise... but, looking at your avatar, it's been driving me insane trying to figure out who you remind me of. Then it hit me.

You look like a younger, more handsome Martin Sheen. It's uncanny.



But back on topic... I agree with everything Noxdraconis just said. I wasn't aware there is a benchmark you have to pass in order to be considered trans enough. Either you are or you aren't. Only you know how you feel and the lengths you will go to be yourself.

 

Thanks, Leiandra!

I know who I am (hey, I'm Jay Sheen!  LOL).  My ex is doing all sorts of mental gymnastics to deny the obvious, and this is his latest. 

Heh, welcome to the club, Jonathan. My family keeps denying that I can be really trans because they claim they "didn't see it" in me when I was growing up. They didn't see how miserably I failed to fit into male situations? How I preferred the company of girls? Part of it is that they have been covering their eyes to prevent themselves from seeing what they don't want to see. Part of it is that I was intimidated into going along with their system. I even hid the truth from myself because it was too hard to deal with. Yeah, I colluded in their denial--and now that I've blown the lid off, they're angry at me for telling my truth now. If I'd come out with it when young, they would have had the same reaction anyway. I always knew within me that I could not fit into the male gender, but did not dare to openly question it. The enforcement is too pervasive and too violent against those who step out of line, and I was not that bold. As a result, I isolated myself a lot, because male society was repulsive to me, and I wasn't allowed into female society.

I think it's those with assertive personalities who are the source of the stereotype that all trans people have to proclaim it from a soapbox in no uncertain terms beginning from the age of 3. But I'm not the assertive type. I always shrank from confrontation and hid away. It took me until the age of 45 before I grew enough of a backbone to come out of hiding and stand up for my truth. Instead of welcoming the honesty and strength of character this took, they try to shoot me down.

I also think my Mom holds a stereotype that all trans women have to come from a gay background, and since I dated girls, she takes that as "proof" that I can't be trans. Just like in Blanchard and Bailey's theories, although I doubt Mom has ever heard of them, Blanchard and Bailey are just playing off of certain old stereotypes that have nothing to do with actual gender identity. Actually, early on I had been sexually attracted to boys, but after two of them raped me, I got turned off of liking males.

This sort of denial can be so hardened and entrenched, it becomes unassailable. I wrote out for my Mom a detailed history of 40 examples of my cross-gender behavior as I grew up, going back to the age of 4. Right from the beginning of my preschool, the first gendered environment I was ever placed into, I rejected identification with the boys and placed myself with the girls, a pattern that persisted thereafter no matter how hard my family and schools tried to suppress it. I wrote out some deeply revealing private facts about my gender and sexual history which I'd never told anyone. Mom accused me of making it all up based on what I'd read about transsexualism. She basically called me a liar after I'd taken her into my confidence and revealed my most private secrets--that hurt me worse than anything else ever has. 

So be prepared for family denial that will go to any lengths of stubbornness to keep the truth at bay. And never mind it. You know your truth and it will set you free.

Thanks for that, Hypatia!  I totally identified with what you wrote; you said it far more eloquently than I have.  Just switch genders.  I'm sure my parents will have the same reaction, esp. my mother.  We're not close for other reasons already.

Jay

Im glad your not "Trans enough". You are man enough.

I guess X's have there uses to practice our message of being who we are. Coming out was so much fun!!!!!!!

Once the cat is out the bag. You can never go back to how thing's were...

OMG!

Quote from: Leiandra on June 23, 2008, 08:13:55 PM
Jay, I know this is completely off topic and for that I apologise... but, looking at your avatar, it's been driving me insane trying to figure out who you remind me of. Then it hit me.

You look like a younger, more handsome Martin Sheen. It's uncanny.



But back on topic... I agree with everything Noxdraconis just said. I wasn't aware there is a benchmark you have to pass in order to be considered trans enough. Either you are or you aren't. Only you know how you feel and the lengths you will go to be yourself.

She is so right you could be his double.  There you go, Jay, go to Hollywood and work for Mr. Sheen.  That would be so cool. 
My ex tried all of those same insane tricks.  Awhile back I sent her and my step son, who is another Jonathan, an e-mail telling them that I was going 24/7-40 and if they were not comfortable about that then call if you need to come over or if you need to see me for any reason.  I also sent them some information about Transsexuality.  And Guess What?  I have yet to hear anything back from them.

And I know what a vengefully and vindictive B***h she can be, so I expect there might be some trouble at work when I come out there.  But it's Lowe's lose if they decide that I am no longer required to be part of their team.  But I know Lowe's well enought that they will bring it to my attention and we can work it out.

No Worries, Mate.

Love,
Janet
 

I don't know if you could be his double, Jay, but you could certainly be Charlie's and Emilio's brother!! That should add some sheen to your shine at work tomorrow!!



Nichole

There's definitely no such thing as "not trans enough."  There is no gray area: you are or aren't.  I was fortunate that my parents, and while I don't think they can ever fully understand, are making an effort to understand where I'm coming from.  I wasn't screaming out about being a girl when I was younger.  I did feel like I got ripped off by being born in a male body though I never said anything because I thought that was how all boys felt.  And of course now I'm still not going to sound my barbaric yawp over the rooftops of the world about it.  There are certain things not everyone needs to be privy to.  Man I hate those stereotypes.

First time I saw that picture, I thought of Martin Sheen as well.
I don't think you have to fight and scream to prove who you are. You hid how many years, of course you learned how to blend in, it does not change what and who you are.

Quote from: sneakersjay on June 23, 2008, 07:09:37 PMHis conclusion is that because I haven't been screaming that "I am MALE! or I am a BOY!" since I was a toddler, that I'm probably not trans and just delusional (not his words but implied).  And since I was never read as male, never presented as butch, am not a lesbian, that I can't possibly really truly be ftm (cuz those other trans guys were).

That's the approach all four of my parents take (divorced parents, I used to think it was cool until I realized that meant they had more ammo to use on me). Actually, not all four. That statement is unfair. Two of them are taking that approach, one of them is undecided and the other acts supportive but I can't tell if she means it or not.

People say I'm not trans enough because I sometimes "act like a girl." The giggles, the dancing, the frollicing. I keep trying to explain to them that the stereotypes don't matter. I tell them, look at a gay man. Not just any gay man, but a flaming, flamboyant, effeminate one. Do they doubt for a second that he's a man? Well, maybe, but they will call him "male." And they will call him a "him." They just might not call him a "real man." But in any case, I've made it clear to those who doubt me that I am gay, and if those stereotypes are biological, well, that explains a lot, doesn't it!

The other thing is that though I may be transgendered and feel male internally, I still have a female body and I'm still loaded with estrogen. So any feminine traits that are biologically induced I do have. I still bleed every month and I still have to deal with boobs and boys sniffing me out for some whoopie. But see, that's the danger of it all. I can't give them whoopie because they want vaginal whoopie and they see me as a girl. The whole thing makes romance in my life impossible. Lesbians see me as a girl, boys see me as a girl, and gay men won't have anything to do with me because I don't have a penis and I'm not masculine enough (T will really work wonders in that department; I'll stop looking like a 15 year old boy).

I think a lot of us end up being accused of this. Mine did not come from family or friends but from people within the Trans community. Because I refused to wipe away the entire male past (as in some hobbies and even some clothing) and go from one box into another -- I was not really a transsexual. Some even tried to label me as a secondary (is that BS still around?) because of it.

You are you. Embrace the you-ness.

Mnemosyne,

You are so right.  I am a woman who enjoys first person shooter vid games, Sci Fi and Action Movies, motorcycles, watching football ( Especially the Seahawks ) and home improvement on the construction side.  I swing mean hammer.

Tell me I'm not 'Trans' enough and I'll show you other women that like the same things.  Are they not 'Woman' enough.

Love,
Janet

I had similar reactions from my partner for five years. She went so far as to say that I could never pass as a woman. I would look like Arnold Swartzenegger in a dress, and be ridiculous. She was actually very abusive in those days over not accepting me as trans or that ->-bleeped-<- really existed. Then three things happened. She gave me an ultimatum to get my hair styled from a unkempt ponytail to a nice female style. The reason was that we had come to a breaking point and she felt it was put up or shut up time. She told me that if she couldn't stand to be seen with me upon seeing the new hair style we would separate. I am fairly sure she thought I would see that I could never pass and give this "silly trans thing" up.... Instead, I went full time and passed. She was stunned.  Finally, she attended an open MTF and FTM TS support group where a doctor spoke of the 80 trans patients she is treating, including me. In a few days, she changed her mind and finally accepted that not only does ->-bleeped-<- exist but that I am a woman. It has been completely different ever since. We get along much better although there are still some hard times. She now calls me Maggie and says that she likes Maggie much more than she liked Kurt. In fact, she says she wants to have more time to have fun with me now. Before these events, she wanted away from me. Our intimate life is still stalled but we do hug and kiss. Nothing passionate but loving nonetheless.
I think it takes some trigger event or events to change a person's mind.

Maggie

i had a similar response from my mom... she said she though i was androgyne 'cause i was never "a manly man."

i think its a normal step in the denial process...

Quote from: J.T. on June 24, 2008, 07:30:06 PM
i had a similar response from my mom... she said she though i was androgyne 'cause i was never "a manly man."

i think its a normal step in the denial process...

I feel it's hard to try to be "manly" without at least a little (extra*) testosterone in my system. Otherwise, I'm just a little boy trying to be like his papa. At least that's how everyone else seems to see it.

*As some may already know, females do have testosterone, just not a whole lot.

Quote from: Elwood on June 24, 2008, 10:20:19 PM
I feel it's hard to try to be "manly" without at least a little (extra*) testosterone in my system. Otherwise, I'm just a little boy trying to be like his papa. At least that's how everyone else seems to see it.

Reminds me of the old days (~ 4-6 years old) when I used to use a magnifying glass to hunt for chest hairs that I wanted so badly so that I could be just like my father.