I've noticed a couple posts around here by people who have realized that a non-binary identity either fit, or did not fit them any longer. This has me wondering. What exactly is that defining point that causes someone to cease being one and become another? ( if in fact said identity ever really fit at all ) I know it seems like a pretty vague question but i guess identities are a pretty vague concept. 

As a note : for this thread i'm mainly interested in situations involving going from/to a non-binary identity to/from another identity.

I don't believe there is a fine line or if there is you won't find it until you have crossed it. Sort of like drifting in an ocean and suddenly you are in foreign waters. There is no borders, no guards or signs. The defining point for me was being asked a question about relationships, I tripped over myself and suddenly realized I was in those foreign waters (or domestic waters). Sounds simple, but it wasn't.

When I was young, I knew from the get go that I was not a boy, but I tried to be and repressed everything. When I started having issues and started looking though I figured I was TS. Then about the time I was about to really admit to myself what I finally was, I found androgyny (I had never heard of it). That seemed to work for me at the time as I'm not sure I was yet ready to own up to everything. I found a lot in common with them all.

Over the next few months I started just trying to relax and find my true self, basically ignore the "training" I got on how to be a guy (harder than it seems). As I went along though I kept opening more and more doors and they were speeding up, not slowing down. I talked to Nichole about this asking for advice on therapy because I did not want someone to push me over that fence I was straddling, before I got to a therapist, I fell over on my own (with a little help from a good friend  ).

I am still very early into this, but already it seems like so many puzzle pieces are falling together about my life. I could still go back, it would be so easy, but while I was happy with it at first, it doesn't fit me any longer. Towards the end I was becoming almost as miserable as I was before I found androgyny. It is like I had to transition my way of thinking before I could move on.

I hope this what you were looking for.

Posted on: June 27, 2008, 02:38:32 PM

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And yes, I know someone will probably find fault with what I wrote, but it's the best I can do for now.

Quote from: sd on June 27, 2008, 03:13:04 PM
And yes, I know someone will probably find fault with what I wrote, but it's the best I can do for now.

How does one find fault with an experience and a life not their own?

Most of us make exactly that argument to buttress our own feelings of "identity," whatever they may be.

You answered from your heart, sd, from your own experience and kept it all well-defined within the "I." My personal take is that there is no "fault" to be found within that context. Very well done.

Hugs,

Nichole

Hi!

I guess every let's say genderqueer person has a different answer to your question. People are conditioned by the society to play roles of males or females in general but sometimes as we know there are people who simply don't fit in this scheme. So if you have a female body and feel like a male you're an FTM TS and that problem can be 'fixed' we all know how. And again, if you're a male outside and a female inside you're an MTF TS and then the surgeon can help you. But what if you, say, feel in certain situations male and under the other circumstances a female? Who can help in this case? I strongly doubt that a person who's never experienced these feelings can understand this. (those who don't get it usually are cisgendered heterosexuals who think that being gay/bi is a stupid fashion trend and must (and can be easily!) switched to a 'hetero' way. These people more or less understand TS folks, but the 'androgyne' thing completely escapes them, for them it's either a male or a female, black or white and no shades)

For example I was born a female but now recollecting my early memories - I've never felt a real female. It's a weird and strange sensation, like an awkward boy in a female attire. But I'm not a TS because I don't want to change my female body for a male one. I like my female image, frilled blouses, make up but I'm not a real girl. It becomes more obvious to me when I'm surrounded by girls and women friends. I just feel I'm 'different', a boy really.. but it's not because I find girls sexually attractive or wanna flirt with them - I've never been in love with a female, always have been emotionally moved by males and yet I'm not a girl. I never flirt like a female would, I simply don't know what it's like to be a female. But there are days when I feel stronger and more aggressive than usual in a male way and some days I feel like a sissy.. Many androgynes have reported these swings of moods. So it's sort of impossible to say who is an androgyne (in my case) a male or a female. We can be more fem or more tomboyish or masculine and that makes me think that a borderline between a TS and and an androgyne is really vague in some cases... I prefer to call it a third gender, that's it

Sorry for the long and somewhat confused thoughts but I really wanted to opine as it's so familiar   

Love and peace to all,
J       

Offically, I'm FtM TS, but I'm more agendered or poly/intergendered. Yes, I want the "officials" to see me as male, I want an "m" in my passport, a flat chest and a dark voice, but I do not identify as male. One of the first thing that crossed my mind when I started seeing a gender therapist was "oh, if I start passing as male, also when I speak and dont bind. Then, then I can start wearing skirts again". Cause, yeah, I love skirts.

I can see why this would be hard in the US for example, where you'll have to pay for everything. In Sweden all the surgeries are covered by the government and I pay approx $25 for a session with the gp. Is this far to the "real" TS? I dont know. I know that Im depressed in the body I have now and that I want it to change. Finding new body hairs (even pre-t) makes my day.

Wow. I'm rambling.
What I was going to say:

I started out as agendered, then I realized I might be FtM and like 6 months ago.. I realized that Im inter or polygendered. Most of my friends knows and I use male and neutral pronouns.

Thanks Nichole.
Part of my worry is that people may think what I did was not well thought out or was too simple (far from it). There were couple minor things I edited out after I wrote that as well that I thought some might object to.

You're right though, everyone is different. We all have to walk our own path and find our own way, for some it may be easy, for others much more difficult. What I wrote is an extremely simplified and short version of taking the long way around. I could write more, lots more on this.

Quote from: sd on June 27, 2008, 05:22:23 PM
Thanks Nichole.

You're most welcome, sd. I try to call 'em like I see 'em.

QuoteWhat I wrote is an extremely simplified and short version of taking the long way around. I could write more, lots more on this.

My goodness! I should hope so! If your thought and feeling processes for the past months or years were brief enough to go into that space!! O, sweetie, you'd never figure out how to get here!! Let alone post!!

Hugs,

Nichole

Now that is interesting. Having read a post by 'herr' Drik I realised one more thing - how really diverse our 'thirdtransgenderqueer' folks are. Some of us, although being androgynes, prefer female, male or more neutral androgyneous bodies. Then comes the way of dressing (strongly connected to our inner selves). In my case I never wear skirts, it's a way too girlish for my likes. We're the most colourful and diverse gender after all, aren't we? Those who aren't into it won't be able to grasp it I suppose  

J 

Quote from: Nichole on June 27, 2008, 05:29:36 PM
My goodness! I should hope so! If your thought and feeling processes for the past months or years were brief enough to go into that space!! O, sweetie, you'd never figure out how to get here!! Let alone post!!

Hugs,

Nichole

If that isn't ever the truth.
I don't think anyone wants to read a 17 volume autobiography of my life. 

Good question.

I've been having one of those weeks. Bursting into tears, emotions very close to the surface... I really don't know what I am anymore, or if the choices I made previously are the right ones to continue with now. Maybe it's an astrological phase. In a lot of ways though, my inner core is same as it always was. What I call my experience is what changes. Sometimes from one day to the next. All I know for sure is that I'm gender variant of some sort. And I often feel great pain in the process of figuring out how to live in this world as who I am. And that doesn't ever go away. It sometimes subsides, and then it resurfaces again.

Drag queen, transgender, androgyne, genderqueer, radical faerie, sissy, transsexual, transgender, maninadress, third gender, neither gender... I've identified as every one of these at some point. I know I've forgotten to list a few. All variations on a similar theme... sometimes intersecting in multiple planes... sometimes universes apart.

Zythyra

Quote from: J on June 27, 2008, 04:56:44 PMI never flirt like a female would, I simply don't know what it's like to be a female.

I am quite uncomfortable with this statement. Just how is a girl supposed to flirt?

Uhm, yeah, how is a girl supposed to flirt?

Play hard to get, I guess.

I tell ya how they flirt. Usually what I noticed is that when girls talk to males, girls maintain fixed eye contact with them, there's something inexplainable in their gaze -  smile, deep observation, half joking, they tend to stand closer to men nd yes, they more often than not play hard to get even if they don't want that man, they try to 'cast their spell'. (That's the way I feel about it)

J

Quote from: J on June 28, 2008, 05:35:14 AM
I tell ya how they flirt. Usually what I noticed is that when girls talk to males, girls maintain fixed eye contact with them, there's something inexplainable in their gaze -  smile, deep observation, half joking, they tend to stand closer to men nd yes, they more often than not play hard to get even if they don't want that man, they try to 'cast their spell'. (That's the way I feel about it)

J

Any ideas about why?

1) Women know more about men than men do about women because we have to? 2) Men usually come to an encounter from a relative position of power? 3) Certainly in upbringing and physicality? 4) Fear and desire? Women are more likely to feel a sense of cautiousness at the same time desiring notice? 5) How best to 'play' that into fun or attraction without getting hurt? Close, but cautious? 6) Hard to get because you gotta be sure this ain't simply about a one-night stand? 7) Casting a spell is also a protection? 8 )It freakin' works?

Nichole

Nichole,

I'm at a loss. So you're a woman and I'm not. I'm new in this forum and I tried to see your profile to find out your androgyne story maybe? Really don't want to make a big discussion out of it, but you know I think it's tad easier for TS folks because at least they know who / what they are. And androgynes are really confused. Yeah, I get ya, women know their way with men, but people like me don't. Imagine, you're out with people in a female attire but as soon as someone starts smiling at you and flirting you immediately feel like a freakin' self-conscious ->-bleeped-<-? And I like a female way of dressing, the other one just doesn't feel right to me. Yes, maybe it's better to 'cast spells' on men and benefit in different ways from that but I don't want and can't manipulate other people - to me it means impersonating females all the time and not being myself which I had been doing all my life before I figured out my real 3rd gender. Believe me, I was all the time confused, mimicking other girls and always ended up frustrated. But now it feels just so right to treat both sexes with equal respect, being a gentleman and a psychological assistant-friend with the females and a good fun buddy with the males.

Respect to all,

J 

You may well be right, J. Transition from and to one gender is quite the task in itself. I tend to agree than androgynes of all sorts probably have a more difficult row-to-hoe.

My comment was directed at flirting, which was what you asked about. I was unaware of the more personal troubles you were having with it.

As for manipulation, I think that's what humans do: we manipulate in some way or another all the time to try and get the end results we want. Can't be helped, I think. No one can walk through the world being a mere cipher, a null set emotionally and physically. So, manipulation is going to occur toward the ends we want to see.

I was merely trying to list some things that might be ends and reasons for going about the sorts of behavior you related.

If you don't want to flirt, then I shoudl think you have a perfect right not to do so. But, someone is likely to flirt with you anyway. I understand that it makes you uncomfortable and I think you were pretty clear why it does. I really don't see or have any problem with what you said to begin with, and certainly none with this last post.

Best,

Nichole

Quote from: J on June 28, 2008, 05:35:14 AM
I tell ya how they flirt. Usually what I noticed is that when girls talk to males, girls maintain fixed eye contact with them, there's something inexplainable in their gaze -  smile, deep observation, half joking, they tend to stand closer to men nd yes, they more often than not play hard to get even if they don't want that man, they try to 'cast their spell'. (That's the way I feel about it)

J

But is that how they're "supposed" to do it?

Besides, I notice that guys do the same thing when they flirt.

Quote from: J on June 28, 2008, 11:38:32 AM
Nichole,

I'm at a loss. So you're a woman and I'm not. I'm new in this forum and I tried to see your profile to find out your androgyne story maybe? Really don't want to make a big discussion out of it, but you know I think it's tad easier for TS folks because at least they know who / what they are. And androgynes are really confused. Yeah, I get ya, women know their way with men, but people like me don't. Imagine, you're out with people in a female attire but as soon as someone starts smiling at you and flirting you immediately feel like a freakin' self-conscious ->-bleeped-<-? And I like a female way of dressing, the other one just doesn't feel right to me. Yes, maybe it's better to 'cast spells' on men and benefit in different ways from that but I don't want and can't manipulate other people - to me it means impersonating females all the time and not being myself which I had been doing all my life before I figured out my real 3rd gender. Believe me, I was all the time confused, mimicking other girls and always ended up frustrated. But now it feels just so right to treat both sexes with equal respect, being a gentleman and a psychological assistant-friend with the females and a good fun buddy with the males.

Respect to all,

J 

Mentally, TS do have it easier in that regard somewhat. They do have a better idea of who/what they are and where they are going, but at the same time, there is a lot of other issues they have to deal with that you never will.

There are lots of people who like androgynes, really, they do.  They may not know what you are, but they still pick up on the mixed traits, and some people do desire that. Those people may not come along every day, but they do come along.

By the way, there is no point in pretending to be someone else to attract someone if you expect it to last. That is not the basis for a good relationship, it is better knowing at the start what you are getting into.

Nah, flirting is all right but only with the people you feel attracted to  But I rather prefer the others to see the personality than concentrate too much on the looks. (just stupid me  ) And it's not easy to be a minority, folks, there are moments of dark despair.

Love you all, thanks for participation and support,
J