Hello everyone,

I signed onto this board because i watched barbara walters' TG special last night.  And I was a bit bothered by what I saw.  Before you get angry at me hear me out:

It is scientifically proven that most children go through a period of confusion regarding their gender.  And I wanted to write about MY experience.

As far back as I could remember as a young child, I wanted to be a boy (I am a girl).  This lasted until around 7 or 8 years old.  I never wanted to do girlie things, I always wanted to hang out with boys, I like boy toys better and thought dolls were stupid....the list goes on.  I even remember dreaming about waking up a boy.  I would pray that God would make me a boy.  And I even prayed that I would grow a penis!

I remember telling my mother several times.  I don't remember her exact reaction.  She didn't get mad, but she didn't encourage my behavior either. 

To make a long story VERY short...I grew out of that stage.  Even if it took years I eventually learned that being a girl was who I am and as a teen became thrilled about being a girl! 

My concern is that in my opinion, parents are jumping the gun way too early to allow their child to choose what sex they want to be.  Had my mother went ahead at 5 or 6 years old and told me: ITS OK HONEY, YOU WANT TO BE A BOY?  THAN GO AHEAD.  ITS OK AND WE WILL LOVE YOU REGARDLESS....I don't know how i would have turned out!  And maybe my dreams of growing a penis would never have gone away. 
thank goodness she didn't just go ahead and tell me to be who I want to be. 

I understand older teenage age children or older people making this decision to be TG.  But I think this EARLY forced acceptance may disrupt the natural flow of things.  I think there are a lot of kids who may possibly be the kind of kid i was at their age.  And I think that gentle correction is much better than giving them a choice at such a young age.  I just don't think a 5,6,7 ....year old should be given the freedom to make that choice yet. 

Please don't get super offended this is just my opinion.  Thanks for reading

Hey skits,

I'm def not in your age range there, being nineteen and almost twenty, but I mean. . . you realize that this is why we have the standards of care and people need to engage in therapy and stuff before beginning HRT.  And also remember, often depending on where you live, they won't let you decide at that young of an age.  They'd normally just give you blockers or something until you're older as well.  Who knows about yourself too, maybe you're still in denial, or maybe you found a way to live with yourself.  It really doesn't matter as I believe as long as you're happy then that's good for you.  It's not up to you, nor anyone else to preach on how someone should live their life in my opinion.  Although, my experiences and influences have been different in my life than yours as well; so I don't think anyone will ever come to the same conclusion on that.

At any note, throw out some research if you're going to claim what you are and I'm sure everyone will be happy then   Other than that, you have a valid point, and being that young definitely is early to go through something so life altering.  Again though, who are we to tell people how to live their lives though?  You have your views as I have mine.  I don't impose them on anyone else nor as should anybody.  Just my two cents really. 

Have a nice weekend.

Hi Skits and welcome to the board.

I didn't see the TG special you saw so I can't comment on that directly. I'm a journalist and I recently had the opportunity to work with TYFA, Trans Youth Family Allies. Now, I do agree that a sort of "forced TG acceptance" can only hurt or confused a child, I firmly believe that isn't what is happening here. TYFA, myself, the trans community and most (if not all) professional therapists/psychologists know this is not a decision to be made lightly; I think that's what most difficult to understand by society as a whole.

In most cases (as is the case with TYFA), transition is an absolute "last resort" and only in the most extreme of cases. They (TYFA, professionals, and again, myself) even encourage finding a compromise if transition can be avoided. Only after years of not only persistence in a child's gender incongruence, but also extensive psychological evaluation is the prospect of transition even entertained as a possibility -- after all, this may very well be a "phase" in some/many/most cases.

No one wants to rush a child into transition. It's a long hard road, trust me. But just as in your case where your gender incongruence was short-lived, others (including myself) found the exact opposite to be true.

We all want what's best for the child.

"Oh, you want to be a girl, young Billy? You don't like baseball? Well, lets go get estrogen."

That just isn't how it goes. Media tends to forget to clarify that.

Hi, skits. Welcome to Susan's Forum. If you decide to stick around, and you are most welcome to do so, please make yourself familiar with The Site Rules so you know how things work and what things don't work. Also there are many articles in the Wiki that you may find helpful for gaining knowledge. They can be accessed through The Main Page. As can uses like Chat and Links to other informative sites.

We are always happy to see cissexual people who have no major difficulties with their own senses of gender-identity come in and learn and allow us to learn from them as well.

In my experience, the main misunderstanding you appear to have regarding us is that "we make a choice." That makes it sound as if our lives are a conscious decision we make to be disrespected, seen as a perversion, get fired from jobs due to the fear of others and to generally be exiled from human community.

What we have is a pretty well-recognized biological condition, a good deal of scientific research from the Netherlands (Free University of Amsterdam) & Germany (Goettingen University, I believe) has been and is being done and a remarkable amount of evidence is appearing that we are normal human beings, just as you are, who have biological reasons for being the way we are.

Literally, we have brains that are not wired to fit our exterior physical bodies. In other words, "choosing" is not a part of who we are, no more than you chose your natural hair color or eye color. We come this way from our births.

I do hope you'll stay and we can all have a reasonable discussion and perhaps come to understand and accept each other more.

Hugs,

Nichole

ok well for starters im not talking about HRT.  im talking about simply letting your five year old go to school as another sex, calling them another sex, etc.  I think that that is damaging.  And i think at that age they are too young to just get the go ahead for that decision.

second...  im not in denial.  Love being a girl and dream of being a mother.  Love men too   if there was ever a place to admit it if this weren't true that would be here in this anonymous setting!  but not the case.

and third.....  when you say who are we to tell a person how to live their lives? 
well the answer to that is we are the ADULTS.  THAT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY WITH OUR CHILDREN.   they are children.  We are here to raise them and show them how they are to behave and live their lives.  If a child steals you don't say: who am i to tell them what to do with their life. 

And that comment is the exact attitude that I am scared of.  Letting your child just decide and do what they may.  It's an attitude that many parents are starting to pick up and in my opinion it's damaging. 

as far as the studies...ill look into it.   I studied it in school as I had to take many upper division psychology classes in college.  WHen i find stuff ill post    

I do understand your fear, skits. We are very often portrayed as some sort of disturbing and revolutionary crazies who try to subvert other people's children. But many of us here have children of our own, some who are even older than you, I expect.

I believe if we all will just try to hear each other without reacting in defensive ways to what we may feel are personal attacks that we can have a conversation. A quiet conversation that may lead to better understanding on all sides.

It sounds like you would be willing to do that. That takes some courage I believe. Try checking out our Links and Wiki references and articles and use some of the links to find other information.

I know you are concerned about children, and so are we. I have some who I would give my life for. They trust and love me and I do them as well. To be honest, I am more than happy that none of them have ever shown any signs of having a make-up like my own. I would never want my children to live through what I have struggled with for so very long.

So, shall we talk?

Hugs,

Nichole

Of course Nichole,

I am not here to argue.  Just healthy courteous debate. 

Just a person concerned about what i see parents letting their children decide at such a young age...coming from a woman who went through a little confusion at that age. 

Thats all

Hi Skits,

Welcome to Susan's and thanks for sharing your personal experience of your own gender history. For many of us here, what we initially felt as children regarding our gender has never changed, and in fact, has intensified during the course of our lives. Children know who they are! I often wonder how my life would've been different had it been possible to express my gender as a child.

If for some reason a young child were to live as their desired gender for a while, and then decide to revert to their birth gender, so be it. Better than bottling  up their feelings and committing suicide, which happens all too often for transgender children. Can we all work together to create a world in which it is safe for all children to explore and express their gender, free from harassment and transphobia.

Zythyra

In that case (that you want to chat) let's try doing a bit of research on "hormone blockers" and their uses and side-effects and precautions etc. In USA children under 18 can only, as far as I know, be allowed a regimen of them. Not hrt.

Some parents do choose to allow their children to dress and identify themselves as a gender not the one their bodies might indicate. I understand other people can be severly upset about that. But, when it comes down to it, don't most children dress differently than others at school? I'm not sure I see a problem with any of it except as adults ingrain certain ideas into their children's heads about what "little boys" and "little girls" do and don't do.

That is gendering in my mind. All those things we are brought into and up with that provide cues to our sexes for others to see. I was always told that certain things I had a desire? need? to do eren't the way "little boys" were supposed to do those things, or were things "little boys" weren't supposed to do or think or say.

Yet, I find that I was never a little boy. That I was right and my parents and teachers, etc were kinda missing what was plain to me because they couldn't see, back then, that perhaps due to some factor or another my soul and heart and mind were not the same as my outer body. Now there is scientific evidence to show that that 'thought' of mine back then was true-to-life.

I think you may not be able to imagine how relieving that is!

So, with the clothes children are allowed or not allowed to wear. Is it truly a huge deal if someone with male genitalia wears a skirt or a dress or pants, or shirts? Who is a victim in that event? I don't really see one.

Perhaps if you do you could help me out here? I'm more than willing to have it explained to me.

Thanks,

and more Hugs,

Nichole

Skits,

I can agree with the feelings you have in so many ways.  I do see in you many of the fine qualities that we wish could come to much of our society.  I too am not so sure as to handle children who exhibit these tendencies. 

I do wish however that I could have received hormone blocker therapy early in my teens.  What a difference it would have ultimately made in my life now. BUT, at that time, and it wasn't all that long ago, most people did not have the level of enlightenment that you have.  I didn't even dare broach the subject with my parents until I was in my twenties.  And at that point, biology had taken its toll.

Welcome to the group!  I hope you stay.  This level of discussion is always welcome and healthy. 

Cindi

Quote from: skits on June 28, 2008, 12:59:21 PM
Just a person concerned about what i see parents letting their children decide at such a young age...coming from a woman who went through a little confusion at that age. 

It's tricky though... for some of those kids, it's not a "phase" at all, nor or they "deciding" anything. They're not going to grow out of it. Wouldn't it be cool if we could somehow identify them and help them early-on?

For others, yes, I know all kids experiment and change their minds constantly. I just don't know how to know which is which? I suppose each parent has to figure that out for themselves. I don't envy their situation.

~Kate~

Quote from: skits on June 28, 2008, 11:54:08 AM
Hello everyone,

I signed onto this board because i watched barbara walters' TG special last night.  And I was a bit bothered by what I saw.  Before you get angry at me hear me out:

It is scientifically proven that most children go through a period of confusion regarding their gender.  And I wanted to write about MY experience.

As far back as I could remember as a young child, I wanted to be a boy (I am a girl).  This lasted until around 7 or 8 years old.  I never wanted to do girlie things, I always wanted to hang out with boys, I like boy toys better and thought dolls were stupid....the list goes on.  I even remember dreaming about waking up a boy.  I would pray that God would make me a boy.  And I even prayed that I would grow a penis!

I remember telling my mother several times.  I don't remember her exact reaction.  She didn't get mad, but she didn't encourage my behavior either. 

To make a long story VERY short...I grew out of that stage.  Even if it took years I eventually learned that being a girl was who I am and as a teen became thrilled about being a girl! 

My concern is that in my opinion, parents are jumping the gun way too early to allow their child to choose what sex they want to be.  Had my mother went ahead at 5 or 6 years old and told me: ITS OK HONEY, YOU WANT TO BE A BOY?  THAN GO AHEAD.  ITS OK AND WE WILL LOVE YOU REGARDLESS....I don't know how i would have turned out!  And maybe my dreams of growing a penis would never have gone away. 
thank goodness she didn't just go ahead and tell me to be who I want to be. 

I understand older teenage age children or older people making this decision to be TG.  But I think this EARLY forced acceptance may disrupt the natural flow of things.  I think there are a lot of kids who may possibly be the kind of kid i was at their age.  And I think that gentle correction is much better than giving them a choice at such a young age.  I just don't think a 5,6,7 ....year old should be given the freedom to make that choice yet. 

Please don't get super offended this is just my opinion.  Thanks for reading

First of all. I think you coming onto this forum in the first place means good things. Its kind of rare that people actually take an interest in stuff like this, other than on the Jerry Springer show, or some nonsense like that. Welcome.

In response to your opinion, I will now state mine. I don't have anything against you, I just do not fully agree. I totally respect your point of view and will now show you mine.

There is no natural flow of things. From what I've heard, in the cases where the kid is forced to be something they don't want to be, only pain for the person results. Not all children are these mindless little embryos of innocence, in fact, as a kid I was far from it. There are special circumstances. You also can't really know for sure what a kid is REALLY feeling inside just cause of a similar experience. The only true empathy/understanding comes from being the person. All else is merely speculation. Some kids should be allowed to make decisions- Informed ones- But decisions nonetheless if they are the right candidate.

The whole "older teenage children" choice is understandable coming from your viewpoint. I am one of those people who made a choice at an older age. All it gave me though, was a constant knowledge of my ruined adolescence, and my current physical traits I could have prevented to avoid conflict in such an un-accepting society. I would kill for the opportunity to be six again, and actually realize what I was, and am. Underestimating a childs point of view, and jeopardizing a potentially lucky situation like that does not really fly with me. I mean... If I were six again, with no knowledge of anything now, except where my Legos were, and that I was a girl, and my parents said I couldn't be a girl, not only would I wreak havoc, but I would feel even more trapped and miserable. Anything my parents would say would only delay the inevitable. I have never gone with someone's orders, only their advice. My mom ordering me around would only intensify the desire I had. I severely doubt that my childhood was that rare a case for someone with gender problems. I knew of my Legos, The worlds I made with my imagination, my pond, tadpoles, mom and dad, and our three kitties. I would just hate for someone to have their childhood screwed up like my teenage years were, and especially for them to regret waiting, like I do.

-Xen

Quote from: skits on June 28, 2008, 11:54:08 AMIt is scientifically proven that most children go through a period of confusion regarding their gender.  And I wanted to write about MY experience.

No. I've spoken to 5 doctors about this. Most children don't think about their genders at such a young age. They don't call themselves genderless, but rather, they don't experience a strong gender feeling either way, so they don't go through that confusion. Wanting to be a little boy because all your friends are little boys is not the same thing as GID. GID spans much further, where a child (like both of the girls, or maybe in your opinion boys) is tormented by their birth sex.

So you grew out of the stage. I'm 18 years old and I've never had that feeling that I was secure being a girl. It wasn't until I was 17 that I started experiencing boy dysphoria, which is quite different than just an emotional desire to be a boy, but it expands to a point where being a girl is scary, painful, and wrong. So maybe you "grew out" of it, but don't mistaken GID as some veil of immaturity. Not every transgendered person has some Freudian attachment to the other sex. Being a girl is not being who I am and I'm not going to conform simply because that would be "growing up." That's the transphobia inside of you talking.

It is a bit too early to do something like a sex change at 10 years old. But these young girls were not having sex changes. They were having hormone blockers, which at worst could make development harder for them if they realize that they are really boys. It is not as permanent as hormone replacement therapy, so the risk is actually quite small.

I am 18 years old and no one will tell me it's okay to be a boy. I've earned my goddamn adulthood and I still have people telling me that my feelings are a lie. So I think you're exaggerating a lot when you assume that all of these parents immediately accepted their daughters' gender identities. Because no one ever does. It's about time someone does tell me it's okay to be who I really am, because I'm not 5 or 6 years old, I've felt this way for a very long time, and I came out when the pain was bad enough that I started injuring myself.

The difference between correcting a confused child and neglecting a child with GID is that the child with GID will be MISERABLE until you let them express themselves. The child who was "just confused" will eventually get over it. The kid with GID will suffer for as many years as you force them to repress their gender expression. That is the major difference in diagnosis.

Letting your little boy dress like a girl and instead of calling her Paul calling her Polly really isn't going to hurt them in the long run if they're going to grow out of it.

Quote from: skits on June 28, 2008, 12:31:07 PMok well for starters im not talking about HRT.  im talking about simply letting your five year old go to school as another sex, calling them another sex, etc.  I think that that is damaging.  And i think at that age they are too young to just get the go ahead for that decision.

That's your opinion. There isn't really a study that proves this is "unhealthy." Confusing? Maybe. But we all go through confusing times and we come out of them.

Quote from: skits on June 28, 2008, 12:31:07 PMsecond...  im not in denial.  Love being a girl and dream of being a mother.  Love men too

I love being a man and dream of being a father. I also love men. Does that mean I'm not trans enough? Or maybe I'm just "confused"? Honestly, just like you have confidence in your being cisgendered, I have complete confidence in my being transgendered. My gender identity is just as valid as yours.

Quote from: skits on June 28, 2008, 12:31:07 PMand third.....  when you say who are we to tell a person how to live their lives?
well the answer to that is we are the ADULTS.  THAT IS OUR RESPONSIBILITY WITH OUR CHILDREN.   they are children.  We are here to raise them and show them how they are to behave and live their lives.  If a child steals you don't say: who am i to tell them what to do with their life.

Key words; YOUR children. You are not the police of the world. Those young girls certainly are transgendered. A person isn't diagnosed at the drop of a hat. I've been in counseling for almost 6 months and they won't give me a sure diagnosis. It isn't something that someone just waltzes on in and just becomes "part of the club." Being transgendered is not a crime like stealing, and I resent the hell out of you for comparing the two. Other members of this forum might be able to take lip from you, but I don't think I will. And I thought you'd be more understanding because of how you felt in your childhood, but coming out of it has made you instead more ignorant to how we are feeling.

Edit: Sorry, Nichole, I got defensive.

Quote from: Nichole on June 28, 2008, 12:26:12 PMWhat we have is a pretty well-recognized biological condition, a good deal of scientific research from the Netherlands (Free University of Amsterdam) & Germany (Goettingen University, I believe) has been and is being done and a remarkable amount of evidence is appearing that we are normal human beings, just as you are, who have biological reasons for being the way we are.

Literally, we have brains that are not wired to fit our exterior physical bodies. In other words, "choosing" is not a part of who we are, no more than you chose your natural hair color or eye color. We come this way from our births.

Do you have any um, links to these studies? I want to learn more. Can we see these brain differences in living people, or does it require a life-threatening lobotomy?

Posted on: June 28, 2008, 12:59:08 PM

---

I'm going to have to apologize for coming off as so aggressive.

Quote from: skits on June 28, 2008, 11:54:08 AM


It is scientifically proven that most children go through a period of confusion regarding their gender. 

It is also scientifically proven that for some children, it isn't a "phase".   I, myself, had an early indication that I was a girl when I was only three years old.  I grew up hating my body and genitals, which eventually led to a life full of depression and suicide attempts.  Had my parents done what these parents are doing for Jazz and Riley, my life would have been less painful.  Personally I think that these children are extremely lucky to to have such understanding parents and be receiving the appropriate care for their medical condition.  What a wonderful thing!

tink

Hi Skits,

Yes, I agree that for some children, most in fact, gender bending is just part of learning one's niche in society and experimenting.  The kids that were shown in the ABC special seem to definitely fall outside of that category, though.  The wonderful thing about childhood is that it is a time of experimentation; since puberty doesn't start until later, there is plenty of time for younger children to try a different role before hormone blockers or anything of that sort becomes an issue.

I appreciated the mother in the special who mentioned that she checks in often with her daughter to be sure that she's happy, and that she lets her know that she can detransition whenever she wants and that no one will be mad.  Prior to hormonal stuff, nothing is permanent, so I don't think it can necessarily hurt.

Lia

Hi Skits hon. I had three children of my own and all turned out (for lack of a better word) normal
I had 11 children go under my roof through the years and all have grown up to be responsible adults. The last three I had in my care I was already doing full time in my preferred gender. So I guess if this don't add up to anything except for my love for children

As for myself I believe I knew something wasn't right with me since the age of three, but I don't believe there was a terrible whole lot of information on Transsexualism back in the forties. fifties, sixties, and seventies for that matter. My parents passed away in the 80's and the rest of the family are spread out all over Ontario.

Some of the family never accepted me for what I am except my children, least ways  when I last saw them had no problems with it. I kept this GID represses within myself until 10 years ago where I first heard of the word transsexual, and two years later I began full time. I am now 62 years old probably older then a good many here. The young-uns here you see, I call them my kids.

Cindy

Quote from: skits on June 28, 2008, 11:54:08 AM

thank goodness she didn't just go ahead and tell me to be who I want to be....

I understand older teenage age children or older people making this decision to be TG. 

I agree that a lot of wisdom is needed in dealing with children.  I also know that understanding is also quite important.  If children experiment sometimes, so be it.  I've never seen evidence that it hurt anyone.  But please understand that my own well-meaning parents belittled me if they saw any cross-gender behavior.  I learned to hide it, and hide it well.  But I could not eradicate it.  I learned to stuff things down and repress things  until it vastly corroded my life.   So I also think parents need to be sensitive to what they are actually doing to their children, even when they do it with the best of intentions.

I just don't agree that anyone chooses to be TG.  Who would choose this if there were a choice?  This is the kind of statement only those who have never really looked into this issue would make.  Or perhaps, you do think this is all some kind of a choice for us.

Thanks for writing in.

Kristi

Thanks for your posts everyone.  Agree with some things and disagree with other things but non the less good to discuss.

Elwood...
I will tell you i came in here in a very kind and courteous manner.  I am a non TG person but i never was attacking TG persons in any way.  You have twisted my words, insulted me, and took on an very negative tone. 

That is unfortunate as I have come in here very clearly stating I am not here to offend or argue.  I think that that is more than you will get out of a lot of people in this world so you should try to be a little kinder to someone who is taking the time to talk and LISTEN so that I may express my opinion and still learn more from you guys. 

And again for everyone i just want to stress my opinion is solely based on young children.  My only fear is that if there are other young five six seven year olds that destined to grow out of the phase (which I know a lot of kids dont grow out of it)  but if there are more like me....then that means that there are kids who grow out of it.  So it would be confusing to start calling them by the opposite sex etc....at such a young age.

For example....had my mother said it was ok for me to be a boy....what would that have done to me?  would i have grown out of it still?  would it have affected me or added to the confusion? 
I dont know....

Quote from: skits on June 28, 2008, 12:31:07 PM
ok well for starters im not talking about HRT.  im talking about simply letting your five year old go to school as another sex, calling them another sex, etc.  I think that that is damaging.  And i think at that age they are too young to just get the go ahead for that decision. 

Well, speaking solely for myself, if someone had allowed me to transition at the youngest age possible I can say with absolute honesty that I would have no regrets whatsoever about doing it. I certainly would not view it as something that was damaging. Now, spending the almost 30 years that I did in a constant state of depression and anger that later turned into constant desires to kill myself?? THAT is what I would call damaging.

http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2813gender.html
http://www.genderpsychology.org/psychology/BSTc.html
http://everything2.com/e2node/stria%2520terminalis
http://www.translife.net/tg101/research.htm

Now, do the research on your own, Elwood!! *smile*

I had some others that disagreed by a woman named Anne Lawrence, skits. She is one of us, I suppose, but would seem to want to believe that we are all either homosexual or simply fetishist. She admits she is a fetishist and wanted to change her body in order to have sex like a woman.

I don't understand what someone like that might be moved by. It wasn't my experience. You can google her on your own, she and some other people involved in the field -- but not in actual medical science -- in theorizing about this want to deny all credibility to the Netherlands' studies.

The German brain-scans were reported to me by my friend, Zoe Brain a few weeks ago. You can google her and read her blogs under "AE Brain." She's a physicist and has much better knowledge of these studies than I do. I'm sure she'd be willing to point you in a good direction, if you are really interested.

Besides Lawrence, there are other anti-trans thinkers such as Paul McHugh, J Michael Bailey, Ray Blanchard and Kenneth Zucker to name a few who would disagree with the studies and referrals I have made above.

Again the Netherlands group at Free University are the only people I am aware of who have done actual research into the preserved brains of trans people and compared us with Cissexual people. The disagreers I have mentioned above are all psychologists or psychiatrists who deal mostly with theory rather than actual physical realities in their work.

But, it's important to know that both sides do exist.

Nichole