I think we all need to remember to respect what other people are saying, even if we don't agree with it.  It's a problem we seem to keep running into lately. 

When someone makes a statement about their gender or how they feel in a group of cisgendered people, they aren't being hypocritical or trying to speak for everyone.  It's just how that person feels and we need to respect that.  I don't think anyone on here is going to buy into gender stereotypes or really hold blanket judgments.  This is just an example that came up recently. 

We're all on here for basically the same reasons and we all deserve the same respect.  It's fine to disagree, but there's a great deal to be said about how we're disagreeing with one another.  Instead of picking someone's post apart, just say something like, "well, this is how I see it/feel about it" and post your response.

Just remember that a lot of the time it's not what you say, but how you say it.

I'm sorry but gender stereotyping and blanket judgements DO regularly take place on here.
"When someone makes a statement about their gender or how they feel in a group of cisgendered people, they aren't being hypocritical or trying to speak for everyone."  Indeed, but we still get a fair few blanket 'men do X' and 'women do Y' type comments even if they're more subtle.  There is little to be said in response to blatant sexism except for calling it out.

I still think people are reading into other people's responses.  For example, if I say that I feel weird when I'm in a group of women, that doesn't mean I'm judging the women I'm around.  It just means I feel weird around them.  I'm judging myself.  That's the difference.  It's not about the other people, it's about me.  Or when someone said they took an online test and it helped them, there's no need to rip into that test.  It didn't help you, fine.  But it did help someone else and there's no reason to invalidate what they are saying.  You can say that the test isn't necessarily the best tool to use, etc., without making people feel bad about their posts. 

And like I said, it's not what is being said, it's how it's being said.  Disagreement is fine, but you don't need to rip a person's post apart.  Just say you disagree and why.  It's almost to the point where I don't even want to post anymore.  There is no need to "call someone out".  Just say you disagree and explain how you feel about the topic. 

I just don't see any benefit in invalidating the opinions and feelings of other people on the forum.

That is true, Andra.

But as sie said, the way one 'calls-out' DOES make a difference. Becoming the gender-police in order to subvert the gender-police seems a rather poor tactic to me. I am not required to change someone's mind, just speak my own.

I think, "I" statements are always best, they tend to be less-defensive and tend to avoid provocation. "You" statements tend to be provocative.

Nichole

Quote from: Jaimey on June 29, 2008, 11:58:46 AM
I think we all need to remember to respect what other people are saying, even if we don't agree with it.  It's a problem we seem to keep running into lately. 

Agreed! It's important to remember that we're all human here, and to treat each other w/ compassion as fellow humans who have feelings, even when we disagree. There are many diverse ways to be androgyne, perhaps one thing that many of us share in common is trying to figure out who/what we are, and how to live that.

I have two goals for us on this forum. One, to figure out what works best for me in my life. Two, to create a world in which it is safe for each and everyone of us to live as who we are. I'm willing to engage in any dialog that will help me/us achieve these ideals.

Zythyra

JC, you persist in making innuendos of judgement while protesting that others do so. Since the post I just removed was public, so is this report and explanation to you of why it was removed.

An attack is an attack, even if is it thought by the attacker to be subtle.

I would suggest that we could all benefit from placing the microsopes we wish to run over other people over ourselves for a bit.

The post was removed because it appeared to be intended to disparage others. Please desist.

Thanks so much,

Nichole

Please refer to The Site Rules:

Quote10. Bashing or flaming of any individuals or groups is not acceptable behavior on this web site and will not be tolerated in the slightest for any reason.
15. You may challenge the issue, but never people or groups.

Quote from: Jaimey on June 29, 2008, 01:26:01 PM
Do you understand that attitude is what I'm talking about?  There are ways of saying things that are much more constructive.  Calling someone a hypocrite is not constructive. 

It's responses like this that alienate people from forums.  I know why you're calling me a hypocrite and it's fine if you think I am.  But exactly how does that accomplish anything? 

The whole point of a forum is discussion.  Calling people out doesn't increase discussion, it decreases it.  It's a very alienating practice.  Why can't you just say, "I disagree with that statement," and explain your position?

What I'm finding alienating lately is that ANY dissenting opinion is taken as personal offence and if we don't all think the same way as a certain subset of posters here that our opinions and views are not valid.  We've gone well beyond a 'discussion forum' and well into the realm of a clique where anything anybody says that differs with how certain people want to continue to behave is labelled as inappropriate and non-constructive.  I believe we had a thread recently about this very issue which was just labelled as being the worst thread on the forum.

As a note, I removed that post after JC's was removed.  That's where the above quote is from.


It's not the dissenting opinions that are the problem.  It's how some of those opinions are phrased that are the problem. 

You can disagree without invalidating another person's opinion.  And it may be that something was written in a different voice than it's being read with.  I think that's a part of the problem too.  I think it's best to read a post with the best possible attitude so that our responses will also have the best attitude.

Quote from: JC on June 29, 2008, 01:34:55 PM
If you do disagree,  state your reasoning rather than yet again complain about 'how' i've chosen to state my thoughts.

Indeed, also if there are any specific instance where people have stated their thoughts in a hurtful or totally unconstructive manner, it'd be better (at least in my opinion) to reply to those specific posts so we actually know where the problem is and we can do something about it.  Vague accusatory posts such as the one at the start of this thread do little to help matters.  Especially as it's full of straw man arguments claiming that people have been getting pissy over posts that aren't generalisations or truly sexist, which I haven't seen evidence of in my time here.

Posted on: June 29, 2008, 01:39:27 PM

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Quote from: Jaimey on June 29, 2008, 01:39:21 PM
You can disagree without invalidating another person's opinion.  And it may be that something was written in a different voice than it's being read with.  I think that's a part of the problem too.  I think it's best to read a post with the best possible attitude so that our responses will also have the best attitude.

Indeed but this has to work both ways.  When somebody says something it's best to 'assume good intent'.  But when somebody questions something that person has says, the original poster (and everyone else reading) ALSO need to 'assume good intent'.  Try thinking for a change that people are trying to be constructive and gain something positive from the discussion rather than taking everything as a personal attack.  This space should exist for ALL of us to feel comfortable in, a constructive place where we can learn from each other, share our experiences and grow, not feel upset when disagreement inevitably rears its head.

QuoteVague accusatory posts such as the one at the start of this thread do little to help matters.

This is what I'm talking about.  This thread was not meant to be accusatory, it's just something to keep in mind.  But the above statement, whether you meant it to be or not, is provocative.

Do you understand that how things are said can change the meaning? 

I shall make the attempt. I would imagine, given the past that it's doomed before it begins.

There appears to be a certain thought that people not only have the right, but the duty to police the behavior, language and thoughts of others when it comes to androgyne/neutrois identity. That duty is almost invariably taken in terms of in-your-face demands, sneers and self-righteousness.

Causes and ideas are, indeed, very important. But the idea should never take precedence, imo, over the person it's directed toward. Their being trumps my idea.

If I wish to educate, then I find it is done best if I educate through example and gentle and quiet discussion, wherein I allow the other person to hear me. Then the matter will be totally up to them anyway. I cannot make someone else change their views without resorting to a violence that I find abhorrant.

So, I must find a way to be heard and to allow the other to actually listen, rather than coming at them forcefully with all the self-righteous indignation of the true believer. I think we all find that we sit during such tirades making up replies while the tirade goes forward. We do not actually hear, or read, more than the first few words.

If I have a position I would like others to take notice of and perhaps come to themselves, then rather than trying to overbear them with the force of my righteousness and intellect, then I had better speak as they are able to hear.

Otherwise, how am I any different than the so-called prejudiced and privileged people I wish to stand against in the arena of ideas?

Hope that's clear and unoffensive. If it doesn't apply to anyone but me, then please allow it to flow past without a ripple.

Nichole

And I find it a very sad commentary that I felt the need to lock the topic as it appears to have become controversial. Someone else may unlock it later. So sorry, Jaimey.

Nichole