Transgender vs Asperger

Link
By Drik
6/16/2008

"Wow, I almost lost my train of thought there. Back back! One of the reasons why I write this post is because someone had found my blog by searching for "asperger transgender", and that reminded me of writing a post Ive been thinking about writing for a very long time. You see, most of my transgendered friends have asperger (or some sort of autism spectrum disorder), and by most I mean 16 out of 20 (im talking about real life friends here).  I find it interesting that more than half of these are FtMs."

Interesting.  I'm dyspraxic, which some researchers think may be related to Aspergers. They share a lot of the same traits, but for dyspraxics it's usually on a much milder scale.  (Others say it's a totally unrelated neurological condition.)  Has anyone else here been diagnosed as being somewhere on the autistic spectrum?

As I understand, many of the same man-made chemicals and toxins that are sometimes linked to transsexuality are also implicated in autism and related conditions. Also, I have read that autism is in some ways a form of 'extreme maleness', in that the logical and pattern-recognition traits of the male brain kinda overwhelm everything else. Pure speculation, but perhaps when gendering takes place during foetal development, and it doesn't take on the gender centers of the brain, there's some kind of feedback or compensatory action or something in other centers, causing them to overdevelop slightly.

~Simone.

Hi i'm Jazzie, I'm a 26 year old 'preop' Mtf person. I've been diagnosed with several neuro-atypical disorders: ADHD, OCD, social phobia, possible mild ASD & possible mild Dyslexia, and as expected Gender identity disorder/Gender Dysphoria.

I often wonder about all of these and whether they are linked.. it sure makes sense to me if all of these can be present in one person.

A while ago I asked this question "Any Transexuals with OCD or ADHD?" on the Yahoo Answers forum which had interesting responses:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080128021821AATgbUN

Wow, exciting!

Im glad you people found my blog and linked to it.
And yes, the answers you got are very interesting Jazzie.

And I would be the person who happened upon Drik's blog via a google search for transgender aspergers.

I'm a newly transitioning MtF aspie. I actually just told my boss this morning that I'm seeing a therapist for Gender Issues.

The purpose of that search, and this post, is because the limited information I've been able to find on the web suggests a few things.

1) The incidence among Aspies of transsexuality seems to be significantly higher then among the NT (Neutotypical) community at large. Some estimates range as high as 40% of XX-born Aspies identify as Transmen.

2) The experience of transsexuality among Aspies seems to differ significantly from their NT counterparts. For instance, it is often not accompanied by childhood desires to "dress" as the other sex.

I believe the reason for that is that Aspies, as a group, tend to be more gender blind then NT's. I.E. an Aspie kid doesn't know what it means to be male or female, and so is ill equipped to understand or come to terms with transgender feelings.

Now, the question I pose is this: Is it a matter of the same environmental variables that are suspected to cause Asperger's that may also cause transsexualism? Or does the gender blindness of Aspies allow them more liberty to honestly evaluate questions of gender without pre-conceived notions of what they should be interfering?

I.E. is the occurance of transgender feelings or inclinations in NT's essentially the same as in the Aspie population, but the Aspie's are just more likely to accept themselves and do what needs to be done, regardless of public opinion? Or is the incidence of Transsexualism truly higher in Aspie's?

These are the questions I've been obsessing on recently, and so I've been looking for individuals asking the same questions, just out of a general thirst for knowledge. (It's an Aspie thing.... no one researches like an interested Aspie.   )

Anyways. I found a yahoo group dedicated to Trans Aspies (Transgender PDD I think was the name) and a few people asking the same questions, but no active community as of yet.

There's plenty of anecdotal information to posit a correlation between the two, but the question is the nature of the relationship.

Very interesting flutter!

Quote from: Jamie-o on June 17, 2008, 03:21:46 AM
Has anyone else here been diagnosed as being somewhere on the autistic spectrum?

I haven't been diagnosed, but I'm pretty sure that I'm somewhere on the high-functioning end of the spectrum.  I'd thought about seeking a diagnosis at one point, but it doesn't really matter to me now.

Quote from: flutter on July 01, 2008, 02:25:42 PM
2) The experience of transsexuality among Aspies seems to differ significantly from their NT counterparts. For instance, it is often not accompanied by childhood desires to "dress" as the other sex.

That describes me, alright.  Until recently, I didn't have any desire to actually, physically dress like a girl - I just fantasized endlessly about being one.  Maybe it was the Aspie literal-mindedness, but I was disgusted by the (perceived) irrationality of physical transition, and thought about it as surgical and cosmetic cheating by people who didn't understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

I hit the wall pretty hard on this one .

Strangely enough, the more I get in touch with my true self, the easier it is to work through the social anxiety, lack of empathy, and other (maybe) Aspie problems I have.  Does this mean it's not an AS disorder after all?

Quote from: Glowbug on July 02, 2008, 01:14:12 AM
That describes me, alright.  Until recently, I didn't have any desire to actually, physically dress like a girl - I just fantasized endlessly about being one.  Maybe it was the Aspie literal-mindedness, but I was disgusted by the (perceived) irrationality of physical transition, and thought about it as surgical and cosmetic cheating by people who didn't understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

I hit the wall pretty hard on this one .

I know just what you mean.  I, too, have a very literal notion of what comprises "the truth" and "reality".  One of the things that held me back for so long was the perception that I could never be a "real" boy.  (I suddenly feel like Pinocchio.)  When I was a kid, I firmly believed (much to everyone's annoyance) that if you didn't include every insignificant detail in an anecdote, you weren't really telling the truth. If your story started, "We stopped by the corner market to pick up some milk," I would feel compelled to fill people in on the entire grocery list. lol

I still have to fight the notion that in trying to transition I'm in some way lying to people.

Quote from: Glowbug on July 02, 2008, 01:14:12 AM
Strangely enough, the more I get in touch with my true self, the easier it is to work through the social anxiety, lack of empathy, and other (maybe) Aspie problems I have.  Does this mean it's not an AS disorder after all?

This is something I find very interesting. Many of my so called aspie "problems" has disappeared the past year, and a girl I know who recently had her SRS has "lost" her aspie-ness. It would be interesting if many of us are getting the wrong diagnose because our psychiatrist dont want to take a risk and assume its GID. Many of the ASD related problems, like social anxiety, lack of empathy etc, are problems that many gender variant kids also have to deal with.

What Im trying to say *thinks* is this: If your body is wrong (even if you're not aware of it) and if you feel comfortable around other people cause you cant be yourself.. (even tho you might not know what you are).. then the chances are you will become socially awkward. Social awkwardness and not being able to fit in, ever, can (and probably will) create social anxiety and perhaps even lack of empathy.

For me it has always been "People dont care about me, so why should I care about them. They bully me. I want them to die.". I would write novels about how I would kill my classmates with a toothpick. Yes, ok dont be scared. Im over that now.

Anyway, this is a REALLY interesting subject.

Quote from: Drik on July 02, 2008, 12:41:13 PM
For me it has always been "People dont care about me, so why should I care about them. They bully me. I want them to die.". I would write novels about how I would kill my classmates with a toothpick. Yes, ok dont be scared. Im over that now.

Ah, the good old days.  I remember being thrilled when my classmates (mostly) finally stopped bullying me, and then being miserable when I realized why they stopped - I'd grown into a very large and intimidating "man" .

On the bright side, it might be cool to be able to loom over jerks after transition >.

I still don't really have a desire to become a highly stylized woman in high heels and a ton of makeup. I don't think that's the essence of being feminine anyways. And it doesn't help that I was an offensive lineman in high school and college. I'm a large individual, I don't think I could pass in the "sex object" stereotype, and I really wouldn't be comfortable being fetishized in that manner. (I once signed up for a gay chubby dating site, and had the same feeling... the men didn't care about my mind, just about my body... it was novel briefly, imagine me, a sex symbol! but then became a real turn off.) I don't know.... perhaps I'm truly gender dysphoric but not transgender? Is that even possible? I know I'm not a man, but I'm not sure I'm a woman. We only seem to have two choices though... I can't take androgen blockers for the testosterone without taking estrogen to replace it without having lasting detrimental effects on my body.

Gender is more a state of mind, and a way of interacting with the world in general, the things you find enjoyable, the endeavors you think are worth pursuing, and yes there is something of a sexual element to it (at least for me.) I have a need to be the seducee rather then the seducer. That alone doesn't make me feminine, but it is an element of it.

I probably just strayed from the party line there. I'll be honest, I'm not up to speed on transgender politics, so I don't know who I may have just offended. I apologize in advance.

Socialization can be learned, and can become easier with practice, so that a mild aspie may not even be aware of their condition, or a boost to overall confidence can help alleviate the effects, and I think that the reaction you've seen in your friends and yourself Drik is, at least partly the ego boost. I haven't taken hormones yet though, I know the effect is said to be profound, but there is an element of self-confidence involved as well. You feel like you belong, so you are able to function.

I'm kind of rambling here, and not getting to a point. Sorry for that, I just tried to switch to celexa and wound up going back to zoloft, so my mind is a bit foggy atm (which is why I wanted off the zoloft to begin with)

I'm an aspie. 

I've noticed that since i've been on T, folks don't look strangely at my stimming behavior or the occasional density that comes with being on the spectrum-- it's now just 'typical' male behavior.

Quote from: flutter on July 07, 2008, 02:08:02 PM
I still don't really have a desire to become a highly stylized woman in high heels and a ton of makeup. I don't think that's the essence of being feminine anyways.

I think I know just what you mean.  I'd rather not have to deal with makeup or elaborate grooming rituals or painful footware.  I'd love to be able to just throw on jeans and a tee, brush my hair back, and pass as a girl.  Being feminine is about relating to people, not looking like a Barbie doll.  I'd prefer to save dress-up for special occasions.

Quote from: flutter on July 07, 2008, 02:08:02 PM
Gender is more a state of mind, and a way of interacting with the world in general, the things you find enjoyable, the endeavors you think are worth pursuing, and yes there is something of a sexual element to it (at least for me.) I have a need to be the seducee rather then the seducer. That alone doesn't make me feminine, but it is an element of it.

For me, my true gender has always been tied up with all of my most secret desires (other than the obvious one).  I've always wanted to be one of those really social & artistic types... I've wanted to act, to sing, to play an instrument, to draw, etc.  I've definitely got talent, but I always got anxious and embarrassed when I tried to express myself.  Something just never felt right.

Everything that I wish I'd done, or done differently, or that I despair of ever doing, goes into the "girl" box in my head (the box is cherry wood, with "Katie" carved into the top ).  It's all stuff that requires confidence, or self esteem, or determination, and that box is brimming over now.  I'm not sure how much more I can pack into there before it all breaks out.

It's already starting to leak...  The last time I was at by best friend's birthday party, I actually sang "Happy Birthday", instead of half-droning the stupid song like everyone does - and it felt great.  Everyone else just sort of stopped and stared at me, and when I was finished, my friends were like, "What the hell?  You can sing!"  I'm outwardly such a stereotypical antisocial geek that I actually shock people when I start acting like the confident young woman I know myself to be.

Quote from: flutter on July 07, 2008, 02:08:02 PM
I'm kind of rambling here, and not getting to a point. Sorry for that, I just tried to switch to celexa and wound up going back to zoloft, so my mind is a bit foggy atm (which is why I wanted off the zoloft to begin with)

Have you had any luck with antidepressants?  I know the fogginess all too well, but none of the drugs (including Celexa & Lexapro) ever helped with my mood.  In fact, Wellbutrin & Remeron made me feel completely dead inside when I tried them.

Quote from: Drik on July 02, 2008, 12:41:13 PM

Quote from: Glowbug on July 02, 2008, 01:14:12 AM
Strangely enough, the more I get in touch with my true self, the easier it is to work through the social anxiety, lack of empathy, and other (maybe) Aspie problems I have.  Does this mean it's not an AS disorder after all?

This is something I find very interesting. Many of my so called aspie "problems" has disappeared the past year, and a girl I know who recently had her SRS has "lost" her aspie-ness. It would be interesting if many of us are getting the wrong diagnose because our psychiatrist dont want to take a risk and assume its GID. Many of the ASD related problems, like social anxiety, lack of empathy etc, are problems that many gender variant kids also have to deal with.

What Im trying to say *thinks* is this: If your body is wrong (even if you're not aware of it) and if you feel comfortable around other people cause you cant be yourself.. (even tho you might not know what you are).. then the chances are you will become socially awkward. Social awkwardness and not being able to fit in, ever, can (and probably will) create social anxiety and perhaps even lack of empathy.

I think that there might be some truth in that, especially since ASD is so difficult to diagnose anyway.  Then theres the whole debate about whether mild ASD is the same thing condition or just natural human variation.

I think i did show quite a few ASD type behaviours growing up, like social anxiety, lack of empathy, lack of eye contact, literal-mindedness.  But GID explains most of that.  And in terms of misdiagnosis, one doctor was convinced that my shyness could only have been because i was deaf!

Quote from: jenny_ on July 07, 2008, 07:47:47 PM
I think i did show quite a few ASD type behaviours growing up, like social anxiety, lack of empathy, lack of eye contact, literal-mindedness.  But GID explains most of that.  And in terms of misdiagnosis, one doctor was convinced that my shyness could only have been because i was deaf!

Yup!
I wish I could blame GID for my lack of facial expressions and tics also.
>.>

Quote from: Nephie on July 07, 2008, 05:28:26 PM
I think I know just what you mean.  I'd rather not have to deal with makeup or elaborate grooming rituals or painful footware.  I'd love to be able to just throw on jeans and a tee, brush my hair back, and pass as a girl.  Being feminine is about relating to people, not looking like a Barbie doll.  I'd prefer to save dress-up for special occasions.

Yep, you're head on. Of course, that could be largely because my mom is a tomboy, no makeup, short hair, rarely wore a skirt or dress, and likes to do home improvement projects.... (a funny aside... my mom was a nanny for a few years when she first moved away from home. The girl she raised (who's still a close family friend) is a lesbian, and basically married a girl who looks and acts just like my mom.)

Quote from: NephieFor me, my true gender has always been tied up with all of my most secret desires (other than the obvious one).  I've always wanted to be one of those really social & artistic types... I've wanted to act, to sing, to play an instrument, to draw, etc.  I've definitely got talent, but I always got anxious and embarrassed when I tried to express myself.  Something just never felt right.

Everything that I wish I'd done, or done differently, or that I despair of ever doing, goes into the "girl" box in my head (the box is cherry wood, with "Katie" carved into the top ).  It's all stuff that requires confidence, or self esteem, or determination, and that box is brimming over now.  I'm not sure how much more I can pack into there before it all breaks out.

It's already starting to leak...  The last time I was at by best friend's birthday party, I actually sang "Happy Birthday", instead of half-droning the stupid song like everyone does - and it felt great.  Everyone else just sort of stopped and stared at me, and when I was finished, my friends were like, "What the hell?  You can sing!"  I'm outwardly such a stereotypical antisocial geek that I actually shock people when I start acting like the confident young woman I know myself to be.

I can relate to that. I'm the life of the party when I let go and let myself ...... well, I used to call it my flaming nelly queen persona.... but I guess it's more then that. When I'm trying to act like a man, I turn into a robot - emotionless, detached, inattentive, and distracted.

I've been having a very strange desire to do drag lately... not as an everyday thing, but as a way of letting it all go and getting lost in the charachter. I suppose I'm a bit of an attention whore, and I love over-the-top so-bad-it's-good kind of camp.

Quote from: Nephie
Have you had any luck with antidepressants?  I know the fogginess all too well, but none of the drugs (including Celexa & Lexapro) ever helped with my mood.  In fact, Wellbutrin & Remeron made me feel completely dead inside when I tried them.

Zoloft was working wonderfully for a while, but now it's been less effective and left me just feeling hazy. I have a first appointment with the psychiatrist next friday, and I plan on asking about switching meds. It's funny though.. I was functioning well unmedicated until I tried to quit smoking, and chantix really spun me into a tailspin that I still haven't come out of completely a year later. So, I haven't been on anti-depressants for a long enough time period to really assess anything beyond the short term effects.

My understanding is it's a fairly normal occurance that the body will become resistant to an anti-depressant after a while of use, the body chemistry shifts etc. (and I had a midgrade headache/withdrawal type symptoms when I tapered off the zoloft.)

Quote from: Nephie on July 02, 2008, 01:14:12 AM
That describes me, alright.  Until recently, I didn't have any desire to actually, physically dress like a girl - I just fantasized endlessly about being one.  Maybe it was the Aspie literal-mindedness, but I was disgusted by the (perceived) irrationality of physical transition, and thought about it as surgical and cosmetic cheating by people who didn't understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

Yes, me too. I 'fantasized' about being a girl from about 13, but I just dress casual like other girls.. jeans etc, it was only when I was about 24 did I finally buy a skirt.. I still don't have any dresses and just the one skirt which I don't wear now anyway. No heels either, just sand shoes.

Quote from: Jamie-o on July 02, 2008, 06:23:10 AM
I still have to fight the notion that in trying to transition I'm in some way lying to people.

Yes, I often have felt this too, it's almost as though if people ask me 'are you a girl or a boy' it's like their saying 'do you have a penis and a boy's name?'

Although once I changed my name I felt alot better

Quote from: Drik on July 02, 2008, 12:41:13 PM


This is something I find very interesting. Many of my so called aspie "problems" has disappeared the past year, and a girl I know who recently had her SRS has "lost" her aspie-ness. It would be interesting if many of us are getting the wrong diagnose because our psychiatrist dont want to take a risk and assume its GID. Many of the ASD related problems, like social anxiety, lack of empathy etc, are problems that many gender variant kids also have to deal with.

Yes, I think my empathetic problems i sometimes had have pretty much dissapeared now.

Quote from: Nephie on July 02, 2008, 02:36:52 PM

On the bright side, it might be cool to be able to loom over jerks after transition >.

You're right. Actually I used to often hate being tall living as a boy, but strangely after beginning transition I kind of like it.

Quote from: flutter on July 07, 2008, 02:08:02 PM
I still don't really have a desire to become a highly stylized woman in high heels and a ton of makeup. I don't think that's the essence of being feminine anyways.

I think that could show that you're not simply a crossdresser, that's what I think anyway. I mean a girl can wear men's farm clothing and still be cute and girly!

Quote from: flutter on July 07, 2008, 02:08:02 PM
perhaps I'm truly gender dysphoric but not transgender? Is that even possible? I know I'm not a man, but I'm not sure I'm a woman. We only seem to have two choices though... I can't take androgen blockers for the testosterone without taking estrogen to replace it without having lasting detrimental effects on my body.

I so often have thought about this too. Since starting transition I have had passing thoughts that 'maybe i'm an androgyne' but realy, I'm closer to a normal girl mentally, and so i'm still M2F rather than M2A

Quote from: Drik on July 07, 2008, 08:01:44 PM

Yup!
I wish I could blame GID for my lack of facial expressions and tics also.
>.>

Well some people are just like that with their facial expressions, you can see it in photos. And as for the tics, are u sure they're not from something else like being tired or nervous?

Quote from: Jasmine on July 12, 2008, 02:29:41 PM
Well some people are just like that with their facial expressions, you can see it in photos. And as for the tics, are u sure they're not from something else like being tired or nervous?

Well, people always comment that I look angry, mad or dead serious ALL the time, even when Im relaxed and happy. So, no facial expression. Oh, I cant read body language either or other peoples facial expressions Nervousness and stress trigger tics, yeah, but I dont know any one (except from my friends with Tourettes) who tics when they are tired or nervous.

Quote from: Drik on July 12, 2008, 05:47:53 PM
Well, people always comment that I look angry, mad or dead serious ALL the time, even when Im relaxed and happy. So, no facial expression. Oh, I cant read body language either or other peoples facial expressions Nervousness and stress trigger tics, yeah, but I dont know any one (except from my friends with Tourettes) who tics when they are tired or nervous.

That's interesting, I've often had uncontrollable tenseness in my face muscles, at least in the last 4 years or so. I think I have heard of a connection between the face muscles and neuro conditions.. regardless though, you seem to have a wonderful pleasantness about you in the photo



Posted on: July 13, 2008, 02:38:38 AM

---

Oh and Drik, I've noticed you don't display a gender marker, do you identify as an androgyne or anything in particular? not that you need to of course