Comprehending roots of animosity toward ->-bleeped-<-: Building a bridge based on mutual understanding

Dear Sisters,

I have long been curious about a segment of society that views the transgendered lifestyle with utter disdain. I have often wondered why we appear so threatening to some people and why they feel the need to impose their views on our community.

In reading the Old Testament of the Bible at the suggestion of my former therapist, I came across the following quote from Deuteronomy 22:5 the New International Version: "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this."

In searching for interpretations of this passage, I have come across a number of eye-opening statements on the web that have shed light on the connections that some people make from ->-bleeped-<- to: 1) mixing of the genders 2) buying into Satan's plan  3) attracting males to perform sodomy, and 4) and to attracting boys to sodomites. Some of the quotes I have reviewed include:

"Even the European Union, the supreme democracy, has stated that pants are man dressing whilst gown and skirts is garment pertaining to women."

"We would have never even considered this 20 years ago, but now we are eliminating the difference in the sexes that God made. In fact, I believe that it is all part of Satan's plan to further defile mankind by mixing the genders. But God is the God of order, not of confusion."

"We should first see that there is a need to keep a clear distinction between the two genders (male and female). God made two sexes. There is no third category as people are suggesting nowadays (such as transsexuals). God has made no such category. God made male and female. He stopped there and so should we!"

"It is well known that men wear earrings to look attractive to other men. These are the effeminate. Cross gender clothing and styles, therefore, are prohibited because they foster sodomy. The two are connected."

"We need to remember even though our boys are free from problems with homosexuality, if they are wearing an earring, a sodomite will single him out with a special eye........ And certainly we do not want men attracted to our boys or our own selves (if we as men wear earrings)."

It appears that much of the disdain we perceive comes from fear of the transgendered lifestyle with roots stemming from interpretations of Old Testament Biblical citations. In short, people fear the effects of ->-bleeped-<- in their lives because they believe that the Bible tells them it is against God's plan and will be a corrupting force to society.

Is the aforementioned quote from Deuteronomy 22:5 to be taken literally, or more constructively considered within the context of the society in which it was written? Are there alternative interpretations to this verse that are not condemning to the transgendered community? Perhaps an understanding of the philosophical and cultural schism will allow the process of healing and acceptance to begin. I hope that through understanding the basis of this conflict, that the transgendered community can strive to form a bridge with this segment of society.

I hate to semi-derail your thread with one little link,  but i believe it covers the issue quite nicely.

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

Quote from: JC on July 06, 2008, 01:28:29 AM
I hate to semi-derail your thread with one little link,  but i believe it covers the issue quite nicely.

http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/

This is great! I think humor is a binding force that has the power to heal. Thank you!

The trouble with passages from the bible is that they come from a book written 2000+ years ago, when the world was a very different place and attitudes towards women particularly were very different.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world has changed but the book remains the same. And the people who take these passages as the literal truth, in my opinion, are basing their views on 2000+ year old mindsets.

It could equally be argued that the passage isn't referring to clothing in a physical sense at all, but symbolic clothing. Like... "a woman must not do a man's job, and a man must not do a woman's job". Again, back when this was written, men and women had severely defined roles in society, and this has been the case throughout history. It's only recently that we've become enlightened enough to realise there is, or should be, no bias between the genders in terms of opportunity and ability.

Since I am atheist, all of this is hypothetical... but how arrogant do you have to be to believe that you 'know' what god's plan is or isn't? In the one sentence we have "God moves in mysterious ways" and in the next we have "no, that's against God's plan".

Contradictory much?

Just out of curiosity... how many of those quotes come from women? I'm willing to bet it's very few... or none.

The spirit of Creator/God works through us. As for men wearing women's clothing being sinful ok, but then many of us who have walked the path to achieve our true identity or the proper gender means to me that it is quite appropriate for us dress in women's clothes, because we are women. 

I am a woman and living as one for the last 8 years and I am not the tormented mess that was supposed to be me before I started this journey.  There ain't no going back and who would want to anyway. Now I am at peace and free more than I ever was before. Why are we driven to this, is that God's will? Maybe, but not in a negative way. It is a test as I see it.

Cindy

Quote from: Leiandra on July 06, 2008, 01:32:33 AM
The trouble with passages from the bible is that they come from a book written 2000+ years ago, when the world was a very different place and attitudes towards women particularly were very different.

Unfortunately, the rest of the world has changed but the book remains the same. And the people who take these passages as the literal truth, in my opinion, are basing their views on 2000+ year old mindsets.

It could equally be argued that the passage isn't referring to clothing in a physical sense at all, but symbolic clothing. Like... "a woman must not do a man's job, and a man must not do a woman's job". Again, back when this was written, men and women had severely defined roles in society, and this has been the case throughout history. It's only recently that we've become enlightened enough to realise there is, or should be, no bias between the genders in terms of opportunity and ability.

Since I am atheist, all of this is hypothetical... but how arrogant do you have to be to believe that you 'know' what god's plan is or isn't? In the one sentence we have "God moves in mysterious ways" and in the next we have "no, that's against God's plan".

Contradictory much?

Just out of curiosity... how many of those quotes come from women? I'm willing to bet it's very few... or none.

Hi, All,

I just took a look at the New American Bible, Deuteronomy 22, verses adjacent to 22:5.  22:11 says:  "You shall not wear cloth of two different kinds of thread, wool and linen woven together."  Let us construe this as literally as possible.  I must wear either wool or linen.  No cotton or polyester, and spandex is out.  Does that mean that the polywool clothes that I once wore are an abomination?  Maybe to some style mavens but not to me.  85% polyester and 15% wool wears well and is quite comfortable.

How about 98% cotton jeans with 2% spandex?  Is that a problem?  If so, I must have some trouble on my hands as I haven't worn 100% cotton jeans in some time.

If you think that 22:5 is a headache, have a read of 21:18 about summary executions, however, a lot of the entire book makes good, practical sense and has been proven to be wise today.

I do not believe that there is any way to build any bridge between one who hates someone and the one they hate.  A bridge must go two ways and the desire to build it must be mutual.

As my dad told me so many times, "God moves in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform."  I do not propose to know the mind of the Creator because His ways are not my ways.  Therefore, I go to the Book of Proverbs, Chapter 17, Verse 3:  "The crucible for silver, and the furnace for gold, but the tester of hearts is the Lord."

Having shared that I will now get some shrimp from the freezer and have dreams of linguine with white clam sauce, heavy on the garlic.

Wing Walker
Happy to Be Me

One perspective I've heard, men and women were largely segregated in traditional Jewish life, this law had to do with someone cross dressing to commit a crime, such as adultery. So if you dress as a woman  to rob a bank, or to sleep w/ your neighbor's wife, you're in big trouble. However, if we're simply expressing our gender as who we are, or perhaps to study Torah like Barbra Streisand in the movie Yentl , I believe that this is OK. Of course, you still have to express your gender w/ out blending of fibers... and Wing Walker, I'll have to pass on the linguini w/ clam sauce, as delicious as it sounds. 

Z

I think people experience a twinge of gender dysphoria when they are first exposed to us because we challenge their deeply held and probably unconscious belief that physical sex and gender must always match.  After all, theirs always did so they never even thought about it until you showed up!  So when they knowingly meet a trans person, especially for the first time, I think many cissexual people (people whose gender and originally assigned sex match) experience a flash of dysphoria when they try to imagine how it would be for them to live in the sex opposite of what they were assigned at birth.  It feels very wrong to them, dysphoric, and that causes them to judge it negatively.

Using the Bible to condemn the people you hate for other reasons is a practice that has been all too common throughout its history.  This is no different.  The people who would use Deuteronomy 22:5 and other Bible verses to condemn us while ignoring other parts (that same chapter says your daughter must marry her rapist if she was a virgin but he has to pay the father first.  How often do we hear that promoted?) are simply justifying their hatred with the best tool they think they have.  It's hypocrisy in action!  As far as that particular verse is concerned, I just answer that I stopped breaking that rule when I transitioned, since I was a woman wearing things pertaining to a man for so many years.

The right wing "Christian" organizations (Focus on the Family, etc.) use the discomfort that trans people and gay people cause in the cis- and heterosexual population to gain money and influence.  They use religious terms to justify their hatred of the gender nonconforming when we are actually being used as a scapegoat to gain political power.  Unfortunately, too many otherwise good people fall into their trap because of this tactic.

hugs & smiles Emelye

Felicia,

Nice thoughts from you. As you can see from your quotations the problem seems mainly two-ply.

Ply-one: An inordinate fear that an attraction to a ->-bleeped-<- is de facto a sign that a male is homosexual. Stupid? Why yes! no more silly though than JC's humorous post about God hating shellfish, which actually could be believed by someone somewhere!! LOL.

Ply-two: a feared loss of patriarchal hierarchies. If the "genders aren't kept distinct" then how does one know who's dominant and who's not? What a sad state of affairs!! Just as a child is coming into his best years, those where he takes charge of home, family, the world and all those incapable women, *sigh* the end of gender arrives and leave him bereft of his birth-right!

O, horrors! Obviously such things are the subversion of God's Will!! We must restore natural order!! Else, who knows what will occur!! Perhaps God will be cast down from His Throne!!

*removes tongue from cheek* But maintains her two-ply approach.

Nichole   

I think these kinds of perceived taboos occur when people fail to over come their ignorance by doing a little research.

This is a much deeper subject than most realize, and I think that many of the modern translations we have of the Hebrew tend to reflect cultural prejudice. 

I would offer the following links as examples of scholarly approaches to understanding this difficult text:

First, from a Jewish perspective:
http://www.beki.org/crossdress.html
It is a little detailed, but you can see that the meaning of this passage is nowhere as clear as some would make us think.

Then, from a Christian perspective:
http://www.queerme.com/deut__225.htm

Kristi

Quote from: Zythyra on July 06, 2008, 07:20:08 AM
One perspective I've heard, men and women were largely segregated in traditional Jewish life, this law had to do with someone cross dressing to commit a crime, such as adultery. So if you dress as a woman  to rob a bank, or to sleep w/ your neighbor's wife, you're in big trouble. However, if we're simply expressing our gender as who we are, or perhaps to study Torah like Barbra Streisand in the movie Yentl , I believe that this is OK. Of course, you still have to express your gender w/ out blending of fibers... and Wing Walker, I'll have to pass on the linguini w/ clam sauce, as delicious as it sounds. 

Z

Hello, Zythrya,

I have also heard another interpretation for this.  When the Book of Deuteronomy was written the Jews were preparing to take the Promised Land by attacking Jericho.  The fighting was a male duty and it was not unusual for a man to hide in woman's clothing to avoid the "draft."

The last I heard, God is still in charge and has not appointed anyone judge, not even Justice Scalia.

Wing Walker

Thank you all for sharing your outstanding insights! Take care.
Felicia