Quote from: Nichole on July 11, 2008, 10:47:49 AM
Happens all the time, Maggie. Your story isn't unusual at all. I imagine it mirrors that of most older transitioners.

The worst thing that happened for most older TSes imo is the Blanchard thesis, or rather the reactions to it. The sense, taken within, that someone doesn't want to simply have a fetish: that's as dismissive as all the other dismissals that the person has had to try to cope with throughout their lifetime.

Imo, another good reason for the people who continue to make ->-bleeped-<- a cause celebre to just let it go. I honestly believe that our reactions to it have been more harmful to TSes and TGes than the theory itself. I mean these guys were all alone and discounted until the rancor began. Now they are seen as "experts," when before they were men working at a hospital noted for is trans-misogny. Should have left it that way, imo.

Nichole

Nichole,
Coming from you, this is very comforting, Thank you.

As for ->-bleeped-<-, I find that the notion is silly but the really sad thing is that so many in the psychiatric community have accepted this as true. The fact that ->-bleeped-<- cannot be proved or disproved is reason enough for a scientific oriented mind to reject the "hypothesis". Those in the leadership of that promulgate this non scientific nonsense bring down the reputation of their whole field.

Maggie

Quote from: le_joli_papillon on July 11, 2008, 02:52:55 AM
Excuse me, but what is Cisgendered? 

Cisgendered is someone who identifies as their birth gender, someone who is not transgendered.

Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 11, 2008, 10:59:52 AM

Nichole,
Coming from you, this is very comforting, Thank you.

As for ->-bleeped-<-, I find that the notion is silly but the really sad thing is that so many in the psychiatric community have accepted this as true. The fact that ->-bleeped-<- cannot be proved or disproved is reason enough for a scientific oriented mind to reject the "hypothesis". Those in the leadership of that promulgate this non scientific nonsense bring down the reputation of their whole field.

Maggie

Thanks, Mags, but that seems excessive!! 

The thingy that needs some understanding by us, imo, is that psychiatry's and clinical psych's ideas about science are often relegated to medication. The "theorists" are basically same as Freud: they mix & match their prejudices and the way they "see" clients into a strictly "thought-experiment" kinda game and publish the results of their "thought."

Kurt Freund invented the "plesy-mythograph" to track blood flow through a penis. The extrapolation being that one can then "measure" the amount of "turn-on" occurring in the subject. There is no "control" available because the idea that the instrument definitely measures what it's supposed to measure "attraction, etc" is not subject to being known. There are other theories and measures of sexual response that maybe would lend themselves to a better interpretation. Of course at Clarke, you cannot get treated and NOT have an electrode attached to you.

But the measurement is just commanded to measure what it's supposed to.

Most psychiatrists will accept that measuement because they measure the same way: other things, but that is the rule. Many are at least neo-Freudians who find that sex is always the core. And many still use discredited "tests" like Rohrschach to do those measurements and come to conclusions about their clients. No different than Blanchard, for instance.

The other APA is much better in their analyses, but, unfortunately they don't write the book, the shrinks do. It'll be almost impossible to break that down on the outside, afterall, it's just a bunch of homosexuals or fetishists doing the protest. That work will be actually best accomplished by shrinks who either are trans or who've worked with trans people enough to have different ideas.

Nichole 

well, i guess anyone who believes they "decide" to become transsexual might not believe in hbs.  that far more closely describes what blanchard and lawrence diagnose as  ->-bleeped-<-.  i would absolutely call that a psychological pathology.  hbs, and...well...i'm certainly not economically gifted, is a congenital intersex condition...100% physiological.

diagnosing these differences is very difficult, i would almost say it takes one to know one at this stage of scientific discovery.  many of us go through different stages in our discovery but if and when we realize the truth, it isn't because it just came to us...it's more likely it's been there all along, just undiscovered.

because i do not suffer from  ->-bleeped-<- doesn't make me not believe in it, it's not my belief system that makes it real or not.  some people believe they are autogynephilic and i think it would be pretty silly of me to say i didn't believe in them.

Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 11, 2008, 10:59:52 AM
As for ->-bleeped-<-, I find that the notion is silly but the really sad thing is that so many in the psychiatric community have accepted this as true. The fact that ->-bleeped-<- cannot be proved or disproved is reason enough for a scientific oriented mind to reject the "hypothesis"...

Well the thing is, doesn't ->-bleeped-<- "predict" that AFTER transitioning, people will either be:

1) gay men taking advantage of their "femaleness" to be sex-crazed and promiscuous

2) heterosexual men who seem like the stereotypical "man in a dress" with masculine mannerisms, never finding acceptance, etc.

To me, a good theory makes reasonably accurate predictions... and ->-bleeped-<- seems to be pretty far off from the reality of things.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 11:33:11 AM
To me, a good theory makes reasonably accurate predictions... and ->-bleeped-<- seems to be pretty far off from the reality of things.

Well, that's the point isn't it? A theory that actually accounts for something? ->-bleeped-<- accounts for Anne Lawrence and some trans-people, but, from my experience, it doesn't account for the lives of a lot, most I have known, late transitioners, at least not that they'd say it does.

Which is another major problem. The "popularization" by Bailey and Lynn Conway and Andrea James has pretty much made a surety that anyone who that does fit beyond just a few are not going to admit it does.

"Fetishist" is not a generally positive way for most to view themselves, although the argument could be easily made that every Christian who reveres the cross or the crucifix, every Muslim who uses worry-beads, every Wiccan who wears a pentacle, every lesbian who wears a vagina-pendant, and every person who feels a "loyalty and reverence" for their county's flag is a fetishist.

The term is so broad that it is meaningless except that most people seem to think of it as "negative."

N~

I think Claire's initial post was getting at the validity of  Dorothy, the late transitioner, as being legitimately a transwoman. ->-bleeped-<- says that she would not be female but a man with a sexual fetish. There have been so many discussions about ->-bleeped-<-.  I wonder if some doubt the validity of late transitioners so much that they feel that some pathology must be applied to explain our situation.  The crux of the issue is why we didn't deal with our trans issues when we were younger. I too amazed that one can essentially live most of a adult life in one gender role while being the opposite inside. Perhaps, more "thought experiments" should go toward more rational and less stigmatic notions than ->-bleeped-<- to explain our lives.

Maggie

Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 11:31:35 AM
well, i guess anyone who believes they "decide" to become transsexual might not believe in hbs.  ...

It's not a matter of not "believing" in it, PJ. It's a matter of how it's being used by a large minority, at least, of those who do. It's being used as a way to say "i'm different." "I have more value." You don't seem to approach it that way and neither do Beyond or myself I know for a fact.

But, right now, it's simply a slogan. The scientific evidence that the manifesto states is there isn't. But, there are indications that point in that direction. But, HBS to be valid at all would need to be generalizable to a lot more of the population than just Sue Robbins, Cathy Platine and Lisa Jain Thompson. It's the evidence that's lacking and a lot of people are proclaiming it's truth. Right now it's in a pre-truth stage scientifically.

Quotediagnosing these differences is very difficult, i would almost say it takes one to know one at this stage of scientific discovery.  many of us go through different stages in our discovery but if and when we realize the truth, it isn't because it just came to us...it's more likely it's been there all along, just undiscovered.

Yes, it is difficult and for the nonce one still diagnoses himself or herself because it fits an internal knowing. But, science, as is claimed by the manifesto, requires a bit more evidence than is currently available. And the origination of the HBS-manifesto seems to be the need to maintain "this is not all in my head" as a way of escaping what many see as a problem, having a "psychological disorder." Yet, for now, that game is the best one going. Hopefully a new league is being formed around research, research that will absolutely find some biological core to the condition.

Quotesome people believe they are autogynephilic and i think it would be pretty silly of me to say i didn't believe in them.

I don't know how silly it would be, but it would certainly violate your sense that you know about you and would make a real logical and moral impasse.

Nichole

Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:23:39 AM
I don't believe in Harry Benjamin Syndrome.  You'll note that it seems to be a condition of white MtFs in higher socio-economic groups.

Lol, so true.

Lia

Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 11, 2008, 11:55:13 AM
I think Claire's initial post was getting at the validity of  Dorothy, the late transitioner, as being legitimately a transwoman. ->-bleeped-<- says that she would not be female but a man with a sexual fetish. There have been so many discussions about ->-bleeped-<-.  I wonder if some doubt the validity of late transitioners so much that they feel that some pathology must be applied to explain our situation.  The crux of the issue is why we didn't deal with our trans issues when we were younger. I too amazed that one can essentially live most of a adult life in one gender role while being the opposite inside. Perhaps, more "thought experiments" should go toward more rational and less stigmatic notions than ->-bleeped-<- to explain our lives.

Maggie

I agree about what Claire was getting at, Maggie. And about the "issue."

But the "issue" about "young" and "older" is simply one within the community, in my experience. Another way of saying "but I am not like YOU! And that red-herring is simply that. No one needs to try to build-up their own validity by trying to make someone else less valid. It's a ploy and says nothing about anyone's validity, except to the degree that PJ is spot-on about the belief aspect.

N~

yes, maggie...it's really about the validity of dorothy.  i think the only way that can be proven is from dorothy herself, the rest of us can only speculate.  the default position for me is that if she believes she is legitimate...i believe her.  i am of the opinion that each transsexual travels her own path and the rest of us are not privy to all the complexities therein.  it's that language thing again, how specific do we want to be when we say transsexual.  i could limit it down to where i am the only one in the world or spread out the umbrella wide enough to catch....transgender.  once we can come up with terms that diffenentiate the subtleties of the overall pattern without people taking offense at every turn we might actually begin to understand and explain ourselves better to the world at large.

Quote from: genovais on July 11, 2008, 12:01:59 PM

Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 09:23:39 AM
I don't believe in Harry Benjamin Syndrome.  You'll note that it seems to be a condition of white MtFs in higher socio-economic groups.

Lol, so true.

Lia

Isn't it just!!?

Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 12:09:22 PM
yes, maggie...it's really about the validity of dorothy.  i think the only way that can be proven is from dorothy herself, the rest of us can only speculate.  the default position for me is that if she believes she is legitimate...i believe her.  i am of the opinion that each transsexual travels her own path and the rest of us are not privy to all the complexities therein.  it's that language thing again, how specific do we want to be when we say transsexual.  i could limit it down to where i am the only one in the world or spread out the umbrella wide enough to catch....transgender.  once we can come up with terms that diffenentiate the subtleties of the overall pattern without people taking offense at every turn we might actually begin to understand and explain ourselves better to the world at large.

And that is also the truth, PJ. Your best post ever!!! Very well stated and, imo, absolutely correct for the time.

If there is something out there waiting for discovery that post may become antiquated, but it surely seems to fit the current state of affairs. 

N~

Quote from: Maggie Kay on July 11, 2008, 10:29:53 AM

Now reading this , you might say I am stupid or touched in the head. I assure you that I am of above average intelligence and completely sane.  I was trying to be a "good boy" far too long in a lost cause. I wonder if there are any others who needed to discover their true gender, like me?

Maggie

You just described my experience to a T, just switch genders.  The lights finally went on when I purchased men's underwear and was sitting around the house with a dildo in my pants...DUH!!  I spent years trying to be a good girl, trying to even figure out what that meant, wondering why I never felt comfortable in the company of other women (as in groups of them, or groups of moms when my kids were small).

I finally discovered what my issues were by reading stories like this and thinking OMG, that's ME!!!

Jay

well, i'm a high-school dropout living on my retirement <which ain't much> and i believe i have what is being called "harry benjamin syndrome".  it is a subset of transsexualism describing early onsets.  it has nothing what-so-ever to do with my race, education, social standing or economic well being.

it is people who do not accept the legitimacy of dorothy who don't like hbs.  it is they who feel themselves somehow less legitimate because they aren't early onsets.  i don't see it that way at all.  i believe that any transsexualism isn't validated by what one chooses to do about it, but by how they feel inside.  i knew i was a girl from the minute i knew there was a difference between boys and girls.  my best friend, one of the most legitimate women i have ever met, didn't recognize her transsexualism until she was nearly 30.  because she didn't come to the realization until she was of a certain age doesn't make even the slightest difference.  people view things in different ways, some question more then others, some don't experience the same trauma as others, there are an almost unlimited number of experiences that we can have to cause us to think this way or that, or to react to stimuli in varying ways. 

i have been referred to as illigitimate because i didn't do anything about it for so very long.  i got kicked out of one on line group because i refer to my female spouse as my wife.    i know women who will never transition, who will not take any concrete steps to affirm their feminity, live out there whole lives drab and in the closet.  these too are legitimate women...they are because they believe they are.  outside validation is wonderful and can be very helpful but inside validation is all that's really required for alot of people.  i just don't see how any of us can comment on the legitimacy of another.  once we get into the business of determining who is and who is not legit, we have lost it all.

 

Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 01:14:23 PM
well, i'm a high-school dropout living on my retirement <which ain't much> and i believe i have what is being called "harry benjamin syndrome".&nbsp; it is a subset of transsexualism describing early onsets.&nbsp; it has nothing what-so-ever to do with my race, education, social standing or economic well being.

it is people who do not accept the legitimacy of dorothy who don't like hbs.&nbsp; it is they who feel themselves somehow less legitimate because they aren't early onsets.&nbsp; i don't see it that way at all.&nbsp; i believe that any transsexualism isn't validated by what one chooses to do about it, but by how they feel inside.&nbsp; i knew i was a girl from the minute i knew there was a difference between boys and girls.&nbsp; my best friend, one of the most legitimate women i have ever met, didn't recognize her transsexualism until she was nearly 30.&nbsp; because she didn't come to the realization until she was of a certain age doesn't make even the slightest difference.&nbsp; people view things in different ways, some question more then others, some don't experience the same trauma as others, there are an almost unlimited number of experiences that we can have to cause us to think this way or that, or to react to stimuli in varying ways.&nbsp;

i have been referred to as illigitimate because i didn't do anything about it for so very long.&nbsp; i got kicked out of one on line group because i refer to my female spouse as my wife.&nbsp; &nbsp; i know women who will never transition, who will not take any concrete steps to affirm their feminity, live out there whole lives drab and in the closet.&nbsp; these too are legitimate women...they are because they believe they are.&nbsp; outside validation is wonderful and can be very helpful but inside validation is all that's really required for alot of people.&nbsp; i just don't see how any of us can comment on the legitimacy of another.&nbsp; once we get into the business of determining who is and who is not legit, we have lost it all.

&nbsp;

I'm not sure I would go so far as to make a judgement about what people who disagree with HBS are thinking and feeling and their reasons for doing so, PJ. That seems a bit much like what you've argued against, deciding for another what they feel.

Anyone interested can go to this site and read the manifesto, because manifesto it is. The "proofs" for the statements made are not currently supported by any hard, fast scientific evidence. And one might think from reading it that in large part the manifesto is a reaction to "psychological diagnosis" and having to accesss treament in some fashion from psychologists.

As far as how much schooling or not that someone has doesn't really say too much about how well they understand or don't a thing like this. I mean some people dissect Shakespeare's plays for a living and are "authorities." Others of us just love to see The Tempest or Hamlet well done. The level of involvement hardly precludes one's enjoyment.

So, that something like HBS as currently described is true I don't doubt. It simply isn't "proven" as yet and I am sure Dr. Gooren would agree with that. And in the hands of some people it has been used as a way of limiting validity to caucasian, middle-to-upper-class women. The actual involvement of FTMs with the HBS folk is as sparse as has been their involvement with the Blanchard bunch.

But, who believes or accepts the truth or the lack-of-proof is not a priori against or disbelieving of the idea. Some of us are very much in favor of and expect that the idea is valid and true, but we also see the need to actually have some acceptable scientific "truth" before claiming that the theory is proven.

Nichole

Pennyjane:

My statement wasn't intended to belittle or trivialize your feelings about your own identity.  I simply take umbrage with the way that the undiagnosable syndrome of which you speak is used as a weapon against other transpeople.

Of course, everyone has the right to self-identify as they see fit.

Lia

QuoteMary - Was born male and given the name of Michael.  As far back as she can remember Mary believed she was female.  Her parents of course discouraged this belief and Mary tried to fit in with the other boys.  At adolescence Mary longed for the body changes she saw in her cisgendered female friends.  Mary found she was attracted to men and considered the possibility that she was gay.  Once she heard about transsexual people, she knew right away that was what she was.  Mary went into therapy and soon after started HRT.  Her family was supportive of her decision and after 2 years RLE she was approved for GRS.   She was soon on her way to Montreal.

Dorothy - Was born male and given the name of Donald.  By the time he reached puberty he knew he was different than his friends.  He thought he may be gay but worked to become a "normal" heterosexual male.  To that end he became über male and played sports and was promiscuous with women.  He took up cross-dressing in private.  After a week at a cross-dresser hotel Donald decided that Dorothy was the person she was meant to be.  She got on HRT, self-medicating at first.  She then decided to complete transition and was soon off to Thailand.

I think both are valid and both are transsexuals.

How about a third type for discussion that seems to be a mix of the two:

Sally- Was born male and given the name of Sam.  As far back as she can remember Sally displayed feminine thinking and
traits but never understood what it meant. She tried to talk to her parents but was strongly rejected and with no other
information or support she learned to keep talk like that inside. At adolescence Sally longed for the body changes she saw
in her cisgendered female friends.  Sally considered the possibility that she was gay and then worked to become a "normal"
heterosexual male. To that end he became very competitive and played sports and tried to prove himself male, even marrying
and having children. He tried cross dressing but he never understood it or had much of a desire but longed for the feminine face
and body. Eventually he realized that his thinking was entirely female and he identified with female viewpoints of almost all
important issues. That combined with the pressure of seeing the male face and body everyday eventually became too great
and Sam was forced to set Sally free and she started HRT. She realized during the process that she was in fact attracted
to males(as well as females) but not in a homosexual context but as a normal or bi-sexual woman.

On the issue of deciding, does anyone really decide to transition or is it just something that we are forced to do? Let me put it this
way: I feel like I might be able to decide not to transition but I have little choice in the matter TO transition.
It's like an invisible force making me move forward.  Whereas I feel not transitioning is a choice I can make. I can decide
not to transition. I don't see that as the same thing I guess.

Amanda

Quote from: Nichole on July 11, 2008, 11:58:30 AM
Hopefully a new league is being formed around research, research that will absolutely find some biological core to the condition.

But why hope for this?" Isn't the drive behind this the same exact one which prompts the question of who's "real" and who's not? The same insecurity which prompts comparisons of Mary and Dorothy? Isn't this ALL a search for justification, legitimacy, something we can hold up to the world proclaiming, "see? I TOLD you these shameful thoughts weren't my fault!"

Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this "female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.

What then? Is is STILL ok to transition?

~Kate~

Yes, it is.

I like the idea of a biological cause, but I'm fine with a psychological cause as well, or no freakin cause or many.

I don't think it makes a lot of difference to me if its an obsession because of a neurological reason or a thought reason.

N~

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
But why hope for this?" Isn't the drive behind this the same exact one which prompts the question of who's "real" and who's not? The same insecurity which prompts comparisons of Mary and Dorothy? Isn't this ALL a search for justification, legitimacy, something we can hold up to the world proclaiming, "see? I TOLD you these shameful thoughts weren't my fault!"

Thank you!  The minute they find a biological cause, the minute steps are taken to try to "prevent" it in utero (same thing with homosexuality).  After all, in the current way of thinking, it is a "disorder."

Lia