In some ways they are both gonna look the same from the outside.

hi amanda.  i think sally is a girl, as much as any other girl.  i'm not sure i fully follow your decision making process though.  i'm not convinced that transition is always a natural course.  it may closely resemble a default course of action but...i'm not sure we are quite there yet, in an evolutionary sense.  something about the yin/yang thing.  if you can decide not to then it implies that you can decide to.

not sure that makes alot of sense, but...oh well...it is some pretty nutritious food for thought.  thanks.


Posted on: July 11, 2008, 02:05:10 PM

---

hi lia...you make a very powerful point.  i wrote a story once i called "the last bus to trinidad".  it was the story of the last transsexual going off to get her grs.  in the story the cause for transsexualism was discovered.  they developed a perfectly safe pill for a pregnant woman to take at a certain time during gestation.  it was recommeded to and accepted by women everywhere, after all who really wants their child to be born transsexual?  it was just another part of the prenatal experience.

the story scared me to death!

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this "female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.

What then? Is is STILL ok to transition?

~Kate~

Maybe this has nothing to do with anything... but even if there was cast iron, irrefutable proof that there was no biological discrepancy to associate GID with... could it really be attributed solely to a preference? Where does the soul/spirit fit in to the equation?

I know this is probably going to come across as new age or something, but regardless of whether anything biological can or cannot explain the way I feel... my soul feels like it doesn't belong in this body, at least not the way it is now. I believe in the process of reincarnation, and have undergone PLR... during which I relived part of a past life where I was female. That felt right. It's the only way I can think of to explain it. And this time... it feels wrong. It's a deeper feeling than anything biological. For me it goes beyond the physical into the metaphysical.

To me it's a choice in the same way that eating is a choice. I can choose when and where and what to eat, and I can choose not to eat if I want to. But if I choose not to... there's only one possible outcome. And the more I put it off, the worse the hunger gets.

The birth-abortion thingy is in large part just another fantasy. How many people of those who are pregnant are even interested in sexing the baby?! Far fewer than we'd prolly imagine. Most people I know don't, or haven't, wanted to know even that.

So, yes, if there is a one-gene sequence, which I rather doubt, just too much variation for that it seems like, then the choice to abort a transsexual or gender-variant child would be there to make, just as it is already there to make w/ Down's Syndrome and a host of other birth-defects.

Birth defects have and will continue to occur in human populations regardless of scientific abilities. Heck, some women don't take pre-natal vitamins! Do we really think most people are so ghastly aware of us that they'd try to get rid of us before we're born? Or would they simply be thrilled to have a baby?

Most of the regret seems to be after we reach our teens! 

Nichole

Quoteif you can decide not to then it implies that you can decide to.

See, I don't think we decide to transition, I think it just happens. I don't ever remember
a conscious thought deciding to transition, yet it's happening. And I think that happens
to a lot of us. It's some type of homing instinct or un-conscious thought or will.

Amanda

Quote from: Nero on July 11, 2008, 10:35:39 AM
Decided? Ok I missed that in the first reading. What exactly do you mean by that?
I mean I suppose we all decide whether or not to do something about it.

Was that little word really the distinction? Because I could really see no difference other than circumstance in these two stories. I think you're right on, Nero (as usual).

Quote from: Nichole on July 11, 2008, 02:03:42 PM
I like the idea of a biological cause, but I'm fine with a psychological cause as well, or no freakin cause or many.

I don't think it makes a lot of difference to me if its an obsession because of a neurological reason or a thought reason.

N~

Not only doesn't it really make that much of a difference to me, I just don't see that it really amounts to a real difference in the first place. My thoughts run on neurons. My neurons are cells. Cells are the basis of biology. So ... shall we debate holistic and reductionistic etiologies, or can we just accept that some phenomena emerge from multiple levels?

(And can you tell I like Douglas Hofstaedter?)

~Alyssa

Quote from: Alyssa M. on July 11, 2008, 02:59:25 PM

Not only doesn't it really make that much of a difference to me, I just don't see that it really amounts to a real difference in the first place. My thoughts run on neurons. My neurons are cells. Cells are the basis of biology. So ... shall we debate holistic and reductionistic etiologies, or can we just accept that some phenomena emerge from multiple levels?

(And can you tell I like Douglas Hofstaedter?)

Well, I can, because we've discussed his books before, Alyssa!! I like him as well you may recall.

And I agree, neurological and neurological are the same thingy.

Nichole

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this "female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.

What then? Is is STILL ok to transition?

~Kate~

I asked myself that exact same question, Kate.  I came to the conclusion that it doesn't matter.  I don't *need* society's validation.  Frankly, I could care less. 

Even if they do find a "trans gene", or whatever?  What of it?  Will it make you, or me, or any of us, any more or less of a female (or male for FTM's) than we already KNOW that we are?  I doubt it.

And it would most certainly not assuage those strident voices of the phobic one iota!  They would still thump their Bibles/Qur'ans/Talmuds/Bob's book of useful things, and condemn us.  But then they would sympathetically call for a medical "cure", probably including everything up to and including euthanasia.

And if they prove that there isn't a trans gene.  It still would not change our feelings whatsoever.  But those strident voices would get a BIG boost!

-Sandy

Quote from: Kassandra on July 11, 2008, 03:05:08 PM
  But those strident voices would get a BIG boost!

And there you have it, Sandy. Right now it's "a psychological disorder that needs therapy to cure. Just ask Paul McHugh!!" 

Again, you travel unerringly to the core of the arguments of "the strident voices of the phobic."

N~

Following on Nichole and Pennyjane post a thought occured to me: If tomorrow a magic pill could "cure me" from being who I am and who I feel I am so as to make me "normal" would I take it?

When I was younger, confused and wanting to fit in, I might have, but today I can say that I wouldn't.
At this stage of my journey my TGism is not a curse anymore, on a contrary I can now see it as blessing. It has given me so much... the chalenge to confront and to transcend the limitation of gender stereotypes, the opportunity and the freedom to explore and express the full span of my desires and feelings. I also know that it has made me a more open and accepting person (of myself and others). It has opened my mind, nourished my curiosity, tested my courage and excited my desire to find out my OWN truth instead of blindly accepting some pseudo scientific or religious ready-made certitudes. It has given me empathy with women, the down-troden and the marginalised. And best of all, I can rejoyce in the celebrations of the diversity of both the feminine and the masculine too.
I have learned so much from it, knowing that I am evolving all the time. Where I am today is so far from where I was before. Accepting and awaiting the next step in my journey of sel-realisation, knowing that what ever choice I will make will be right one for me at the right time. That confidence, free from external pressures and other people agendas or expectation is priceless. I might want to transition and then I might not. This is nobody's business, I can make my own informed choices. All I know it that I have always been me, that I am me now and I will still be me then.

Does that make any sense to any one? Do I care, really? >

HLLL&R

Maebh  

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM

Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this "female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.

What then? Is is STILL ok to transition?

~Kate~

Sure. In my case, I don't know if it's biology, either physical or mental, or personal preference. I'm not sure that I really care what it is. I don't need the validation of a diagnosis. As I see it, I have a choice. I can try to live w the body I have, or I can transition. I've done the first one for a long time, always honoring who I am inside. I came to the realization that I was depressed and miserable about it. So on to the next way.

In other societies, some people were born gender variant, and their culture made a space for them. Sometimes they had a very special role.

If it is nothing more than I'd rather be a woman than a man, well, it's still a free country... although last time I checked it was teetering on the edge of it for sure. If I think I'm happier, than why not. And while we're at it, a house in the mountains AND a beach house sound great to me 

Zythyra

i'm with you maebh.  i wouldn't trade one moment of my life to date for anything.  sure, it's been tough in places, but who can't say that?

nichole...i wasn't talking about aborting the child, but preventing the circumstances that make the child transsexual.  i became interested in this when i read about a couple of studies suggesting a certain period during gestation where the fetus is vulnerable to some hormone washes that may be associated with ts.  if this were true and if research leads to a little pill that can be safely taken by the pregnant woman to prevent the washes, or to vacinate the fetus against the affects, i think it likely that most women would opt to take it.

so, it's not like we'd be killed off, just the circumstances leading to our transsexualism being thawrted.

i keep hearing people talking about gid as if it meant transsexual.  maybe i'm hearing wrong, but it confuses me at times.  gid <gender identity disorder> or gd <gender dysphoria> are completely different then ts.  often a gid or gd accompanies ts, but as i've heard suggested, that's mainly due to society's negative attitude about ts.  gid and gd are in fact psychological pathologies that can be associated with ts but are not necessarily there in all cases.  i can see where a dysphoria will usually accompany ts in that there is a discrepancy between biology and brain gender.  once one realizes that the brain is in charge and is what is going to be listened to the dyphoria usually goes away.  and, the gid and the gd are very treatable in ts.  i was diagnosed with a gid when i first transitioned, but it was completely cured by therapy and eventually grs.  i no longer suffer from a gid and i am no longer the victim of a gender dysphoria, i am however; still transsexual.  there are other gid's that aren't even related to transsexuals, so that must be taken into account as well when we are discussing transsexualism.  again, that language thing.

Thank you all for your parts in making this such a successful discussion!  I'm glad I had to go out this morning.   My own more adversarial style could have led it into less interesting directions.  I'm amazed  by the level of consensus among everyone.  Once semantics are put aside we're all pretty accepting of each others' paths and experiences.   

Susans's is the best! 

Quote from: Claire de Lune on July 11, 2008, 04:40:34 PM

Once semantics are put aside we're all pretty accepting of each others' paths and experiences.   

Susans's is the best! 

I'll drink to that!  Sláinte

HLLL&R

Maebh

So will I and I think the language isn't a problem in that regard!!

Nichole

Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 03:57:38 PM

...

nichole...i wasn't talking about aborting the child, but preventing the circumstances that make the child transsexual.  i became interested in this when i read about a couple of studies suggesting a certain period during gestation where the fetus is vulnerable to some hormone washes that may be associated with ts.  if this were true and if research leads to a little pill that can be safely taken by the pregnant woman to prevent the washes, or to vacinate the fetus against the affects, i think it likely that most women would opt to take it.

so, it's not like we'd be killed off, just the circumstances leading to our transsexualism being thawrted.

OK, but is that a practical concern at this point? That just seems totally beyond any current technological possibilities and any we may develop in the foreseeable future. Tracking the actual hormonal secretions and when they occur? Developing a pill that will selectively stop one particular type of birth and leave the rest alone?

Given our existence as a % of population I think the worries about that are for a long-time the stuff of science-fiction, definitely not science-fact at this point, PJ. The precision is just too acute and the return on investment for pharmaceuticals makers is just too small anytime soon. Or so I would argue.

N~

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PMAsk yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological.

I never thought it WAS biological until many years after the fact. I thought I was just @$#%ing NUTS! In looking back at the 24 years before transition/SRS and the years afterward I could simply find no explanation how/why I could possibly have endured more than a decade of pure hell, ended up seriously suicidal, and then soared into womanhood like it was all 'old hat' if it wasn't the "female brain" theory. If the brain isn't biologically shaped, then the only thing left  is spiritual.

you fly jane!

no, nichole...it's not a practical concern as of right now.  just things i tend to speculate about.  i also envision the day one of us will give birth.  not that it's likely to happen anytime soon, but it's still a lovely vision.  this flashed into my consiciousness when i heard about some doctor's at johns hopkins working on uterel transplants.  God, things do move fast!

i guess i do see myself as part of something much larger then myself.  i'm amazed and a little overwhelmed when i realize that for the previous generation to mine, grs was not even imaginable.  all of us had to suffer through life without ever reaching or even hoping for that level of fulfillment.  to me it's a miracle, i'm on my knees often in gratitude that i came when i did.  it makes me feel a special kinship and responsibility for the next generation, i've been given so much by the previous one that i can never do enough for the next.

so, i guess the irony isn't lost on me that just now, just when we're really starting to get good at bringing transsexuals to fulfillment by way of medical science and research we are also on the road to doing away with ourselves by the same method.

we've talked some about the magic pill to bring our minds and spirits into congruence with our bodies.  i'm a little surprised and very gratified to hear so many who say they would not take it.  i know i'd flush that bugger down the nearest toilet with all due haste, and i'd wear gloves when handling it!  being transsexual is not a ho hum thing to me.  i'm so very, very glad i am and i owe the existence i have today in no small part to the history my ts has provided me.

transsexuals have been around since the beginning of time, though it's only now when we can do something about it that we are becoming known.  i think ending this particular form of human diverstity would be a shame and a great loss to our species as a whole.  the very idea saddens me and can move me to melancholy if i'm not careful...so i'm gonna go watch a cartoon.  may God bless us all with...

Quote from: Kate on July 11, 2008, 02:00:33 PM
Ask yourself... each of you... how would you feel if they proved with 100% accuracy that GID is *not* biological. What if it's just a very strong preference, same as some people like the mountains and some like the beach? What if you KNEW your brain and body were physically perfectly normal, no genetic anomalies whatsoever, none of this "female brain in a male body" stuff... you're as normal as the next male physically.

It would be difficult for me to be "as normal as the next male" in any way since I'm not male.

I never based my decision on being physically different.  But all my physical differences from "normal males" are hard to ignore.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 11, 2008, 06:22:21 PM

We've talked some about the magic pill to bring our minds and spirits into congruence with our bodies.  i'm a little surprised and very gratified to hear so many who say they would not take it....
 
Transsexuals have been around since the beginning of time....

I think ending this particular form of human diverstity would be a shame and a great loss to our species as a whole.  the very idea saddens me

Sláinte I'll drink to that too! 

HLLL&R

Maebh

I can relate to Dorothy, except I went the other way.

I was a total preppy girl for a while. Make up, push up bra, hair done, tight jeans the works. I thought being more feminine would make me feel more feminine. I tried to avoid the idea that I was a guy. But I could only shove it off for so long... I realized that I am most passionate and wonderful when I am myself. That is in the masculine role, when I can just dance and sing and nobody can tell me otherwise. When I was being the gender I wasn't, I felt weak and alienated. I'm sure Dorothy struggled with this, felt powerless as a man, and that's why she beefed up so much.

So I don't think Dorothy is any less of a woman at all. She just struggled. She had that same struggle I did. She may have thought that staying "natural" was better. But you know, I've realized that the gift of science can be a wonderful thing. Let's hope there isn't some world war that deprives us of that magnificent resource.

If it was proven that GID was not biological, I'd be pretty upset. Why? Because then they'd try to force me to be a girl. Because they'd want to use "behavioral therapy." But over hundreds and maybe even thousands of years, that hasn't worked. Transition has been the answer because it works. If GID being completely psychological doesn't take away my transition, then I don't give a damn. The problem is when the nature of the diagnosis compromises the treatment.

To be honest, I think being transgendered is partially a blessing. I have no transpride, but I will say that if it wasn't for this, I wouldn't br a man. I'd be in the other role, blissfully ignorant. Wouldn't life be a bore without this struggle, this transformation? I wouldn't give a thing in the world to be "reborn" male because I cherish this life.