There has been a lot of activity in the general news about transgender children lately. It seems that without exception, every article and video I have come across about TS children, the children are very outspoken as to who they are and insist on being treated as their correct gender. Many actually announce that they are not a girl/boy -- some as early as age 2.

I did not associate my discomfort with who I am with such overt actions. In fact. when I first cross-dressed at the age of 5, I still did not make the connection that I wanted to be a girl. Sure I liked doing girl things more then boy things but I had a general feeling of being out of sync with the world, not a conviction that I am a girl, treat me like one. (That didn't happen until a couple of years before puberty).

I'm not questioning my gender based on my childhood experiences, but it seems to me that a lot of TS children who are not so adamant in announcing who they are will go unnoticed or ignored or worse, labeled mentally ill as I was.

Maybe I'm wrong and if you are not adamant about who you are, then these children should wait? But wait until when? After the harm is done? I am thrilled for these found kids... but I feel very down about the forgotten ones. No one should go through what I did, and I suspect there are a lot of TSs here that feel the same way.

Dora
 

God bless you dear girl.  you make a very substantial point and you make it very eloquently.  i think i get it.  someday, i personally i don't think it's going to take as long as some others might think right now, we are going to be able to diagnose ts, or hbs, without the need for therapy or having the child affirm his/herself at an early age.

then, we'll be able to treat all of us as early as possible and thus gain the best results from treatment.  until then we have to rely on diagnosing the later onsets through therapy.  so i guess, taking your real concern into account, what we have to do is educate...educate ourselves, our peers, our society and most of all...our mental health functionaries.  we have to put the question we've recently been talking about here to bed.  there is no difference in legitimacy between early and later onsets, both are of the same cloth and both respond positively to the same treatment.  one child is born blonde and her hair turns brown later in life, another child is born with brown hair...the fact remains...they both have brown hair.  i know that's a simple analogy, but like so many things...it really is pretty simple until we introduce predjudice into the subject...one trying to make themselves feel better at the expense of another.

relatively i'm more legitimately transsexual then you are because i knew i was transsexual at an earlier age...how absurd!

My problem is that "early onset" (pre puberty) is so
badly understood, that many errors could be made
there too. Better to just let chlldren experiement
without pushing too much either direction and
see where the dice falls later.

I've read that most children who are effiminate
actually turn out to be gay. Having them
transition would be a big mistake.

Most TS I know really started to feel bad
at puberty. Before that, they felt something
different, but they could live with it if
their parents let them be themselves
(like parents do with tomboys who
certainly don't all turn out to be FTM).

I think a lot of it has to do with the times, too.  Parents know so much more now and are more accepting (not all, for sure).  Gays & lesbians have come a long way, so from that standpoint it's no longer the huge family shame to have a gay child. 

Back when I was a kid I do remember saying things like I want to be a boy, or pretending to be a boy (ie passing where people didn't know me) but I was a pretty compliant kid, my parents were boss, and I got plenty of "You're a GIRL, act like one!" messages, where my parents were pretty dismissive.  So I learned to shut up about it.

A lot of parent don't freak out when their son plays dress up (mine did, with makeup and nails and the whole shebang), and I know I played along.  "Oh, so you're the Mommy today?  How's your baby?" etc.  Didn't make my son gay or transgendered, but I think more parents are more accepting of things like these, so truly transgendered children don't feel so at odds with themselves and shamed by acting opposite their biological gender.

I knew I was supposed to be a boy, but in the 60s I was happy with the tomboy label, if that's as close to being a boy as my parents would allow.

I think I'm rambling again..

In the segments I've seen on transgendered children, most parents seem to be following the child's lead and not pushing either way but letting their child be who they are and encouraging that, not encouraging transition specifically (but allowing their kids to dress their true gender if they choose).

Jay

hi keira.  i totally agree that children should never be pushed in such a matter.  but for some of us early onsets, there has never been a question.  sometimes what happens is...we're sure...we're told we're crazy...we believe it..we try everything else...nothing works...we realize we aren't crazy...we're sure.

most of us early onsets didn't have effeminate natures, we stood up and said, "hey, i'm not a boy you silly people...i'm a girl!  isn't it obvious?"  the point is we were as adverse to being boys as we were inclined to be girls.  i know in my case that any reasonably educated person....<none in that time period> could have been sure i was a girl by the time i was five, and that's giving plenty of room for a negative benefit of doubt.  in was an impossible idea in those days, i was told i was nuts and i did have to concede that possibility for many years.  being nuts didn't change my mind though, i just thought God had made a terrible mistake by making me a boy, i would have made a lot better girl.

it wasn't until i finally internalized the idea that it's possible for a girl to be born with a penis that i began to sort things out.  that's the only thing that ever made sense to me.  i am a girl.  i don't want to be one, i already am.  i was just born a girl with a penis.  heck, all sorts of birth mistakes occur...what's so wildly impossible about this one?  nothing,  it happens.

it wasn't about dressing like a girl, it was about being a girl.  by the time i was eleven or twelve i'd lost all interest in dressing like a girl.  if i couldn't be a girl then i would just try to make it as a boy.  dressing never came back into my mind until i began to realize the truth about myself...into my fifties.  it wasn't about what i looked like, it was about how i felt.  all that time i believed i should have been a girl, but dressing up like one wasn't going to make me one, so...why do it?

once i found that i was a girl in spite of that anatomical anomale, i wasn't nuts and i wasn't destined to have to live out my life as a man...everything changed.  now i love to dress up.  i love expressing my femininity in every way.  it's like the dam broke.  i can and i gosh darned well will! 

i am of the opinion that this happens more then is reported.  there may be such trauma in some lives that the early discovery gets put in a dark and hidden place and doesn't make it's way into the light until later in life.  if that didn't happen, if we could get passed the judgment thing, i think alot more transsexuals might be determined as early onsets then now believe themselves to be.  that's just an opinion, but it does make sense to me.

that's the problem i think dora was getting at.  these so called "later onsets" seem to be illigitimatized...<is there such a word?> because they didn't sceam and holler as toddlers, so they get overlooked and not taken as seriously as the "early onsets".  it's a real problem and i hope people who are looking at this thing from an academic or research perspective hear what she's saying and take it to heart.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 12, 2008, 04:18:14 PM
that's the problem i think dora was getting at.  these so called "later onsets" seem to be illigitimatized...<is there such a word?> because they didn't sceam and holler as toddlers, so they get overlooked and not taken as seriously as the "early onsets".  it's a real problem and i hope people who are looking at this thing from an academic or research perspective hear what she's saying and take it to heart.

Penny Jane: Yes, we are on the same page.  You put into words exactly what I was thinking. Thank you for posting.

I am simply frustrated, sad and angry that it happened way back then, and it continues to happen today. It's nobody's fault really, and I know that there are no real solutions. I was just expressing the deep sadness I feel in my heart for I know there is nothing I can do to help the children left behind.

I guess I just feel like crying today.

Dora

i say go ahead and cry dora.  if this isn't worth crying over nothing is.  we share a love for our baby sisters and sometimes crying for them is about the best we can do.  God bless you with...

Quote from: Dora on July 12, 2008, 12:22:41 PM.... if you are not adamant about who you are, then these children should wait?

As sneakersjay indicated, the intensity of expression has a lot to do with the child's basic temperament and how free they feel to express their thoughts and feeling. Perhaps 'persistent' would be a stronger indicator than being 'adamant'.

In the abusive environment I grew up in (1950's), being 'adamant' led to negative consequences. Being gently persistent was much safer. (OK, except for the time when I was 15 and a shrink suggest to my Mom that I be put on testosterone to 'make a man of me' - THAT time I threw a hissy-fit that any teenage drama queen would envy!)

In those early days, being 'adamant' with the medical profession would also lead to dire consequences (like being committed, 'aversion therapy', and other nasty stuff) because the general consensus was that being TS was a mental problem.

I am delighted that children are being listened to today and that the medical community has advanced to the point of at least delaying puberty. Hopefully one day soon an underlying physiological indicator will be found (at least for some) and effective treatment can begin before 'inappropriate puberty'.

From earliest childhood, the indications were there (for me), by 8 I knew WHAT was wrong, but it took until 24 to fix it.

wow!  jane, you are a quick study!  i knew at 3 and it took me 'till my fifties to "fix" it.  clearly you learned to turn that persistance into adamance and make it happen.  that well timed hissy fit may have been one of the best moves of your life.  congratulations on the many years of real life you've had and God bless you!

Thank you PJ  I am very proud of my stubbornness and I am sure that developed as a result of my childhood - LOL!

In all fairness, I DIDN'T know WHAT I was for awhile but I knew what I WASN'T and I couldn't stay there! Fortunately my childhood conviction turned out to be right ***huge sigh of relief!***

The problem is not that you know early, its what on earth should the
parent do about it?

Sometimes, I think we forget that its hard being a parent.

Like I said, since most tomboys don't turn out to be FTM,
and if such behavior would be tolerated in males, I've got
no doubt, most tomgirls :-) would not become MTF either.

I'm just worried that with so little evidence, doctors and parents
make mistakes.

Its better to let the observe the child, and see where it goes.
Delaying puberty even, until the person can make an
informed decision.

I see a bit too much bandwagon jumping,
based on so little evidence of any kind (on many subjects,
not just this one).

Transitioning a child a 8 for me can't be supported
and I even wonder if its needed.

All my friends where girls, I skipped rope with them, played elastics,
played with dolls.  I was a bookworm. I was tops in gymnastics,
looked as boys as different from me in some way,
and I don't remember ever being traumatized by this.

Its only at puberty that there was a big riff since girls moved
in a different social sphere and I could not join the guys,
I was left totally isolated.

hi keira.  i take your point.  i don't think you are one who needed transition at an early age and that's a good thing.  you were comfortable working it all out in due time.  not being traumatized is a wonderful thing, i'm so glad that is the way it worked out for you.

unfortunately, for some of us that wasn't the case.  personally, i was very traumatized.  i was confused to the core and my childhood was lived utterly unfulfilled.  i always had the idea that the world was a little crazy...and so was i.  i never could figure out why that penis had so much power over my life.  to me it was just someting to pee out of and yet to everyone else, it seemed, it defined me.  even people who never saw it, couldn't even be sure it was there held it up to me.  it made me appear to be something i wasn't.

i guess, from that...i wonder what might happen with other children such as myself if that dysphoria had been acknowledged and treated respectfully at an early age.  if the penis hadn't held all the power, but was just one aspect of my gender identity: only suggested, not confirmed.  i'm not saying that grs should be done at the drop of a hat, but at least being allowed to explore openly and freely, with support instead of condemnation.  it this persists in a child for more then just a short period...as jane said...persistantly...then more concrete steps could be taken...one step at a time.  in some cases that's exactly what's being done now...i think it's a wonderful thing...done right i think many lives might be enhanced.  just an opinion.

Quote from: pennyjane on July 13, 2008, 05:40:11 AM
... i was very traumatized.  i was confused to the core ....

No kidding!!!

For me, I was fine up until I started school - before that nobody seemed to care that I didn't act as I was 'supposed to' and I was happy with the neighbourhood girls as my playmates. The problems all started when I was pressured toward a 'boy role' and excluded from 'girls' circles'.

Quote...i wonder what might happen with other children such as myself if that dysphoria had been acknowledged and treated respectfully at an early age.

(I consider the term 'gender dysphoria' misleading - I was never unhappy with my gender! I refer instead to 'psycho-sexual inversion.)

In a perfect (enlightened) world, if my condition had been treated as a simple physical deformity and my gender accepted as valid, my life would have been pretty ordinary.

I doubt that I will live long enough to see such a world unless TS is shown to have a physiological cause.

hi jane...i understand your reticence over the use of "dysphoria".  it does carry some psychological baggage that may not be appropriate for alot of us.  i use it as in the opposite of euphoric, in that i was uncomfortable and saddened by the gender expression i was forced into.  the dysphoria disappeared when i allowed myself the proper expression.

terms are confusing at times.  for instance:  a lot of people use the term srs...<sexual reassignment surgery>.  i don't like that one, my sex was unaltered by surgery.  some use grs...<genital reassignment surgery>.  i think that's closer.  i use grs <genital reconfiguration surgery>.  i think that hits the spot.  it's what actually happens.  the genitalia are actually not replaced or transformed, they are reconfigured into a more appropriate representation of the inner gender identity.

just the way things work out.

Quote
The problems all started when I was pressured toward a 'boy role' and excluded from 'girls' circles'.

I had an interesting conversation with my therapist about being pressured by my parents to do masculine activities. For years I blamed my parents for putting me in these horrible situations. I resented the fact that I was clearly being pushed in a direction that I did not want to go.

I told my therapist about these "tests of my manhood" administered by my parents and I waited for some some kind of validation from her for all those early years of confusion and anger but instead she said, "Your parents did nothing more then any other parent would do for their little boy. Many fathers get their son a rifle. A lot of young boys are enrolled in boys clubs and go off to camp. The problem wasn't with your parents, the problem was with you."

My frustration I had been holding onto for all those years was immediately lifted off my shoulders. If I didn't know I was a girl, how could my parents possibly know?

Dora

good morning dora.  i can see how that might be a big step forward.  there is something about our human nature that seems to make us happier having someone to blame then we are with having nothing to blame them for.  it doesn't make much difference who we blame, rather they are innocent or guilty, ourselves or others, it's pretty much a waste of time and energy:  a distraction from moving forward towards solutions.

it's only ancedotal, but i know for myself when i decided to give up on the blame game, figured out a way to make a blanket forgiveness for the whole world, myself included, was the time things started happening.  not that forgiveness is easy or comes natural, sometimes we have to stuggle for it but if we can do it...my, my...it makes the world a whole lot brighter and a more plesant place to be.

forgiving my parents was a big one.  but like you, i knew they didn't do the things they did out of malace.  they weren't intentionally trying to torture me, they honestly felt like i had a big problem that had to be fixed.  they tried to fix it in the best way they knew how.  i can't hold them responsible for not knowing what it seemed nobody knew in those days.  it didn't take an act of grace to forgive them for that, just a little understanding and compassion.

what takes grace to forgive is willful ignorance.  such as my older brother.  the information is now available, it's out there for him to learn about if he chose to do so.  he doesn't.  he's too comfortable with his predjudice to open up to new ideas.  but, by grace i can forgive him too.  with this forgiveness we have a pretty good relationship in spite of the obstacles he keeps trying to throw up.  when i just look at it objectively it's in my best interest to have this relationship.  he's my brother and i love him.  i know her loves me too, eventhough this part of me embarrasses him.  with the relationship there is hope that one day he'll see the light in spite of himself, without it he'd just be content with his superior attitude and probably never change.  hope is just such a wonderful gift.  with hope all things are possible.  hope is a barrier to despair.  hope is life and it is destiny.  so, God bless us all with...

I am one of the ones who always knew and I wouldn't back down. Someone tried to put me in a dress they would get a black eye or a split lip. The few time my parents forced the issue because they were stronger resulted in me taking it off 3 times and after fourth time I took scissors to it so they couldn't put it back on. I was 3 at the time. My parents fought me every step of the way but that didn't change how I felt or what I said. I told everyone from my teachers to the doctors to the religious leaders.

Children's gender identity is formed by the age of 5 and I fully believe a child is an accurate judge of their gender identity. I am not talking about behaviour here but in a healthy respectful environment a child by the age 5 can self identify. Look at the DSM, it isn't who or what you play with it about a child standing and self identifying.  People might have their suspicions but only the person can identify for them self. It is not appropriate to treat on suspicions no matter how certain one might be.

If the child is suspected then put them in safe therapy so that as their lives progress they can take advantages of their options as it is needed. However that doesn't mean the child can't transition if the therapist, child and family (age dependent) agree that is in the child's best interest. The main thing is just supporting a child as they make their way through the world.

In the light of a stable gender identity over lifetime then I think hormones can be prescribed at puberty otherwise puberty suppression is the right choice. Surgery is only appropriate at the legal age of consent for the child. In fact the idea of a test for kids who will be trans scares me quite a bit and I would oppose any treatment until the child self identifies and surgery at the age of consent. I would oppose it the same way that I oppose elective genital and gonadal surgery on the behest of parents (circumcision, intersexed surgery, sterilization etc.), none of us is capable of making such a huge choice for this young person and it amounts to abuse. MTF think about the dialating required post op, if it is non-consenual, painful and sometime done by other people that amounts to rape and they should be charged. I am also greatly concerned because the risk of abuse of intersexed kids is more then 6 times that of a non intersexed child. The risk elevation only happens once the parents are aware of the issue. The same applies for children with medical, psychiatric and developmental disorders.

All I know is I had to lose my family, friends, religion, education and community to find myself. I had to walk this very lonely path alone because my parents allowed their fears to justify their abuse and not see the agony I was in. Instead of allowing my identity they tried to destroy me. It can't be excused because they didn't know any better. I forgive them because I don't want to allow it to ruin my life.

->-bleeped-<-boy

In humans, identity is not formed in an instant, and
even the notion of which gender you are takes time
and how you define it, and how much you feel
you are different from others depend on the environment
you're in.

Considering the errors commited on the intersexed by
well meaning parents and the medical profession,
I'd be loathe to have the same error be made again.

That's why I'm a bit icky about full transition in children
pre-puberty. Though, most boys can easily pass as
girls pre-puberty, I could (and I had shoulder long
hair until I was 9 and was regularly see as a girl)
so it wouldn't take much
to make it possible.

i agree, ->-bleeped-<-boy, that self-identifying is really all that matters.  i also take your point about surgery, although i am not quite comfortable with mandating any specific age for all cases.  i think the age of consent is reasonable as policy, but not law.  i really think that the earlier a child gets into treatment the better...not just emotionally but physically as well.

dilatating by someone else?  never been there and it's a place i'd just as soon not visit.  only when my nurse was showing me how right after surgery was that approached.  i was already in so much pain that even  the small stent looked like the goodyear blimp to me.  i guess i could see some extreme medical reasons for it..oh Lord, i hope i never get there.  enough.

Standards can be deviated from but age of consent around here is 14;) so I wouldn't advocate any lower then that. It allows a full 2 years for the child to deal with hormones and should eliminate the need for breast surgery in most cases. The first surgery at that age could be gonadalectomy and SRS at 16 if all other factors are in line.

When they did surgery on boys to make a vagina early on they required multiple surgeries throughout the child's life. I know what I am about to say for a fact because in the case I am talking about they video taped the session and I saw it as a part of a lecture to a committee I was on. The child was 8 years old and naked from the waist down. There were multiple student doctors and team members present watching of video making comments through out. This was being done at a local children's hospital in the early 90s. The parents were there but had to leave the room because they couldn't handle hearing the child screaming in pain and begging them to stop.

The doctor explained that the parents had brought the child in because the dilation process had become harder and they couldn't do it at home anymore. He then proceeded to do the dilation by forcing the device in well the child screamed hysterically and had to be restrained. He explained this was normal because the parents had not maintained the dilation process. I left and threw up and the committee accepted the evidence of why they shouldn't advocate for surgery before the patient is competent to complete treatment independently and competently. I argued for charges to be laid against the doctors but was told it happened too long ago and it was considered standard practice at the time. I almost resigned over the issue. No, I think surgery can't be preformed unless it is the patient is advocating them self.

I know recently my sister circumcised my nephew against my wishes. They cut off a little much and the whole thing turned into a big scar over his head. They had to cut off more to fix it. Now every time my nephew is around doctors he is withdrawn and quiet. He isn't the same out going little guy he was before. I know that when he is older there is a strong likelihood of pain and difficulty on erection and will most likely need corrective surgery. I still don't know how we will explain to him that they thought he wouldn't bond to his father if he didn't have a penis like his and that they didn't want to bother teaching him to clean himself, so instead they mutilated him. How do we look our kids in the eyes and say we took this choice away from you and now you get to suffer for our mistakes. It is just wrong unless there is a medical need and I think we need to start charging parents with the abuse that this is, regardless if it is done to normalize or because we have prejudice in our hearts.

->-bleeped-<-boy