I completely agree!  I'm father to a daughter and I wouldn't have missed that experience for anything.  She taught me at least as much as I taught her and she continues to do so.  The analysis from a certain utilitarian perspective that finds dollars and cents the only measure of value.  Unfortunately it's one that is shared by far too many people in positions of power.

Quote from: Natasha on July 05, 2008, 07:12:16 PM
nature? god? or?

Hormone wash. Poor dears! And there's no cure  >

Z

Quote from: Zythyra on July 18, 2008, 01:29:55 PM

Quote from: Natasha on July 05, 2008, 07:12:16 PM
nature? god? or?

Hormone wash. Poor dears! And there's no cure  >

Z

I thought it was because they had been recruited by older heterosexual perverts, especially the religious ones.  Heterosexuality is a choice, you know, even if it is an abomination.

Heterosexuality is the "default." Homosexuality, bisexuality, pansexuality etc. are just the other options. And there's nothing wrong with being "another" rather than the "default."

Eh, I don't know about that...  I dunno if there really is a legitimate "default" and certainly plenty of heterosexuals are only more or less heterosexual than others... I mean, I identify that way, but truth be told I'm not strictly hetero, just mostly.

I feel it is simply confirmation bias and reassuring one's self to claim that homosexuality came first. It really isn't fact. Asexuality (as in, spawning, dividing, etc) came first. Homosexuality and heterosexuality have been around since there were sexes, but only one of the two promotes the survival of the species. If I try to be as objective as possible (and yes, I am flamingly gay, with a hint of bisexuality) I believe that homosexuality is a bit of a "defect" to the species. Does that mean all gay people should die or stop being gay? No. But is homosexuality useful to the species' survival? No.

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 18, 2008, 07:22:28 PM
I thought it was because they had been recruited by older heterosexual perverts, especially the religious ones.  Heterosexuality is a choice, you know, even if it is an abomination.

How could I have forgotten, what with all those creepy hets out there trying to recruit...  >

Seriously, I believe that humans are inherently bisexual, and due to negative societal conditioning, most people are too terrified to admit or face it.

Z

The order in which the words were scribed is not congruent with when the actual process began or why.

Don't get me wrong. I like queers just fine. I just don't like queers to use irrational arguments to justify how they feel.

I wouldn't buy that. Homosexuality existed. It's like saying rocks didn't exist until we made a word for it. The fact is, people of the same sex hand sex and people of the opposite sex had sex. This has nothing to do with "stating" it or making it a "diagnosis." The language doesn't matter; that's mere semantics.

Don't try to confuse me with more words, please. It's just a waste of time.

Homosexuality and heterosexuality have been around since multiple sexes have. The second a species evolved into a species that had sexes rather than asexual production was the age of homosexual and heterosexual interaction. This all occurred long before there was man and long before there was language.

Homosexuality and heterosexuality are far more simple than you give them credit for. Homosexuality is the interaction of two sexes of the same sex sexually and heterosexuality is the interaction of two sexes of the opposite sex sexually. This implying that the state of homosexuality and heterosexuality does not only apply to human beings who have a more complicated concept of what sexuality is. A male monkey who is attracted to other male monkeys is considered homosexual, despite his lack of "emotional" and "cognitive" connection to his sexuality. Thus, that shilly-shallying about the "philosophical ways" of sexuality is quite irrelevant. In the most raw, broad, and condensed uses of the term, it's a purely biological term that means nothing more than what the word itself tells us.

History of the world and biology does not end with the human race.

Homosexuality was around long before the 18th century. Yes, that EXACT word had not yet been characterized, but the concept was known. In Rome, bisexuality and homosexuality were accepted, later embraced, and further encouraged near Rome's fall. Yes, they don't talk about this in school much (it isn't PC) but homosexuality became quite the norm just before Rome had fallen. It was normal to be gay, bisexual, straight, whatever. Sure, they didn't have words for it, but there were stories about it, Gods that represented it, and drawings on pottery and ->-bleeped-<- that showed homosexual relations even as far back as that. In ancient India there is evidence of gender diversity in Gods that could change their sexes and other examples showing diversity in sexuality and gender.

Your argument only includes the history of the European and the history of the word. Words are not as important as raw contents existing. Again, rocks were around before words were, and so were homosexuals and heterosexuals.

Quote from: redfish on July 19, 2008, 05:57:46 PM
Ergo, heterosexuality was caused by homosexuality.

No, it was when the Dark Crystal was shattered and the species was divided into Heterosexies and Gayflings.  When the prophecy is fulfilled and the Crystal is healed, everyone will be Bisexy again.

 

"Personally, I think the Jabberwocky is completely responsible for the entire manifestation of words and concrete reality," said Nichole.

"Off with her head," said the Red Queen (in this case named, appropriately enough, Redfish) to the Guardsman, Elwood, as the stunned Lisbeth looked on, groking on rocks. 

G... G... Guardsman?

I like the idea of that one, sister. 

Its all in how the genes work.

You know, Lee's, Levis... 

Quote from: redfish on July 19, 2008, 10:42:48 PM

QuoteHomosexuality and heterosexuality have been around since multiple sexes have. The second a species evolved into a species that had sexes rather than asexual production was the age of homosexual and heterosexual interaction. This all occurred long before there was man and long before there was language.

Same-sex sexual interaction existed, but it was not attributed to heterosexual or homosexual hegemonies, categories, or associated with specific types of persons. Sex was just sex, and had yet to be divided into little boxes.

I'm not talking about categories or words. If that's what you're talking about, then I'd agree with you. But homosexuals have always been around, as have heterosexuals. The concept existed before the word did.

Quote from: redfish on July 19, 2008, 10:42:48 PM

QuoteA male monkey who is attracted to other male monkeys is considered homosexual, despite his lack of "emotional" and "cognitive" connection to his sexuality. Thus, that shilly-shallying about the "philosophical ways" of sexuality is quite irrelevant. In the most raw, broad, and condensed uses of the term, it's a purely biological term that means nothing more than what the word itself tells us.

Alright, so we have heterosexuality and homosexuality. Consequently, we have heterosexual and homosexual acts and heterosexual and homosexual people.

I'm also aware that some people like to have sex frequently and others like to have sex less frequently. I know! Let's call the ones who like to have sex more frequently Oftensexuals and the ones who like to have sex less frequently Seldomsexuals! In studying the Oftensexual and Seldomsexual person, we might find traits that they share - let's call these Oftensexual or Seldomsexual traits! Also, sex performed frequently is now called Oftensexual sex and sex performed less frequently is called Seldomsexual. There must be something that causes people to be this way...let's search for the Seldomsexual gene!

I never claimed that there was a gay gene. But I'm sure there is a known biological cause for a person's amount of sex drive.

Quote from: redfish on July 19, 2008, 10:42:48 PMIsn't homosexuality and heterosexuality kind of, well, arbitrary? Why not just say people have sex with the same sex or a different sex and just call it a day without placing all these complicated labels over the surface? Why not just say a male chimpanzee that had sex with another male chimpanzee just had...sex with another male chimpanzee instead of saying the chimpanzee was homosexual or that it engaged in a homosexual act?

Saying homosexual is easier than saying "a person who prefers same-sex interaction." Some labeling in life is necessary for easy communication. I have no problem with being called a homosexual.

Quote from: redfish on July 19, 2008, 10:42:48 PM

QuoteHomosexuality was around long before the 18th century. Yes, that EXACT word had not yet been characterized, but the concept was known. In Rome, bisexuality and homosexuality were accepted, later embraced, and further encouraged near Rome's fall. Yes, they don't talk about this in school much (it isn't PC) but homosexuality became quite the norm just before Rome had fallen. It was normal to be gay, bisexual, straight, whatever. Sure, they didn't have words for it, but there were stories about it, Gods that represented it, and drawings on pottery and ->-bleeped-<- that showed homosexual relations even as far back as that. In ancient India there is evidence of gender diversity in Gods that could change their sexes and other examples showing diversity in sexuality and gender.

I dunno, I think that they weren't really homosexual or bisexual or whatever - it was probably more about action than anything else. People were embraced to have sex with whomever, but not in the form of bisexuality or homosexuality or heterosexuality. Pretty much, sex (the verb and act) got replaced by sexuality (the noun and adjective).

How would you know that?

The word change has got nothing to do with it. Sex, the act, is dictated by sexuality, the preference. The two have been around as long as multiple sexes have been around.

Quote from: redfish on July 19, 2008, 10:42:48 PMPerhaps homosexuality or heterosexuality or bisexuality aren't synoymous with the sex acts themselves. I think each of these labels are just too loaded to accurately describe sex, because as soon as you refer to a "heterosexual act," it also brings upon associations with the heterosexual person and heterosexuality itself. Basically, if we are to believe Foucault, sexuality has been taking over sex.

I would never even use the words, "heterosexual act." I call sexual acts sexual acts, bada bing. There isn't really a "specific" sexual act I can think of besides guys potentially beating their penises against each other. Other than that, everyone's got an anus.

Quote from: redfish on July 19, 2008, 10:42:48 PM

Quote from: Nichole on July 19, 2008, 07:37:13 PM
"Personally, I think the Jabberwocky is completely responsible for the entire manifestation of words and concrete reality," said Nichole.

"Off with her head," said the Red Queen (in this case named, appropriately enough, Redfish) to the Guardsman, Elwood, as the stunned Lisbeth looked on, groking on rocks. 

I thought I was the walrus. Or, given the "quality" of what I've been saying, possibly a way-too-stoned caterpillar.

"I am the egg-man.  I am the walrus.  Coo coo ca'choo."

Actually, the whole hetero/homo concept is an outgrowth of the modern strict logicality of the 20th century.  It's impossible to say that the one causes the other without also saying the reverse.  Homosexuality causes heterosexuality causes homosexuality, in an infinite loop.

I don't know what causes heterosexuality, however, I do know it's a disease that MUST be cured. I'm going to start a camp where hets can come and learn how to rid themselves of their filthy ways. I'll only charge $50,000 per 3 months.

I wish we were Bonobos too.  Except I'd hate to be in a bar room of drunken Bonobos. I'm too passive to survive that.

Quote from: Rebis on July 20, 2008, 11:30:08 AM
I don't know what causes heterosexuality, however, I do know it's a disease that MUST be cured. I'm going to start a camp where hets can come and learn how to rid themselves of their filthy ways. I'll only charge $50,000 per 3 months.

I wish we were Bonobos too.  Except I'd hate to be in a bar room of drunken Bonobos. I'm too passive to survive that.

SCHWHAT?! Are you saying that if I want to bang a girl that I'm diseased?  Or are bis okay?

Everybody is diseased.

That is why I have decided to cleanse the Earth.  I'm going to use a citrus based cleansing agent so I don't hurt anyone with bad chemicals.