Sixteen Transsexuals Busted For Participating In Beauty Pageant
http://www.bernama.com.my/bernama/state_news/news.php?id=348716&cat=et

Sixteen transsexuals were busted by the Kelantan Islamic Religious Affair Department Friday for participating in a transsexual beauty pageant at a resort near here.

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Those poor women will be subject to beatings and testosterone shots, perhaps even imprisonment or worse.

But I thought it was a religion of peace?  So much for religious (of any stripe) propaganda.

Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2008, 05:26:49 PM
But I thought it was a religion of peace?  So much for religious (of any stripe) propaganda.

Don't blame a religion for what people are responsible for doing.

Religion is a social control mechanism and thus reflects its own followers.

I'm more than happy to blame any faith based system for the actions of the morons that follow it.

after all, did not Jesus say....

Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16

Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2008, 06:30:41 PM

Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16

That's amazing, I actually went and looked it up, it's in there 

Mnemosyne, where're you getting the information about T shots? I didn't see it in the blurb.

And for what it's worth I agree that blaming the entire religion isn't very fair, but it's bound to happen when it's so often used as a justification for doing horrible things.

Quote from: Mnemosyne on July 26, 2008, 06:23:24 PM
Religion is a social control mechanism and thus reflects its own followers.

Quote from: TeklaI'm more than happy to blame any faith based system for the actions of the morons that follow it.

after all, did not Jesus say....

Ye shall know them by their fruits." Matt 7:16

Any religion can be followed in many different manners depending on how people interpret it.  You choosing a nature of a religion simply by some of the followers that you've focused your sites on, you're ignoring everyone else's actions who follow that religion.

There are good Muslims and there are the bad ones, just as there are good people and bad people all across the planet.

Blaming the religion and thus criticising every person who suscribes to that religion for the actions of a few extremists is about as mature as saying all gay people have HIV and are going to burn in hell.

Take your discrimination and your willingness to hate and find a better use fpr it.  Or atleast refrain from playing the high and mighty judge of every single Muslim on the planet.

Furthermore, don't quote the New Testament of the Bible to use as a reference against Islam.  Nothing Jesus said has any pertinance to the beliefs of what many people suscribe to, nor much of anything related to facts to begin with.

Funny that, Islam thinks of Jesus as a Prophet, if not one of THE Prophets.  They think of Mary as sacred too, far more so than most protestant religions do.

Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2008, 06:59:33 PM
Funny that, Islam thinks of Jesus as a Prophet, if not one of THE Prophets.  They think of Mary as sacred too, far more so than most protestant religions do.

And yet you're completely ignoring the rest of my post.  Let me remind you:

Quote from: AnnwynAny religion can be followed in many different manners depending on how people interpret it.  You choosing a nature of a religion simply by some of the followers that you've focused your sites on, you're ignoring everyone else's actions who follow that religion.

There are good Muslims and there are the bad ones, just as there are good people and bad people all across the planet.

Blaming the religion and thus criticising every person who suscribes to that religion for the actions of a few extremists is about as mature as saying all gay people have HIV and are going to burn in hell.

Take your discrimination and your willingness to hate and find a better use for it.  Or atleast refrain from playing the high and mighty judge of every single Muslim on the planet.

Please explain why the actions of a few people who claim to be muslims should reflect on the nature of all muslims?

Religions are most certainly responsible for the actions of their followers.  Short of any major recanting of those actions, which I don't see here.

BTW, I don't see a TG beauty pageant in Vatican City going over any better than it would at Liberty Road Baptist Church in Virgina either.

T shots, imprisonment, etc is S.O.P. for many Islamic countries as they deal with the "homosexual problem".

Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2008, 07:17:28 PM
Religions are most certainly responsible for the actions of their followers.  Short of any major recanting of those actions, which I don't see here.

No, each individual is responsible for the actions he/she commits.  And no matter what excuse they use, whether it be that they follow a religion or that they deserve revenge, will ever change that people are the ones committing those actions, and not a set of ideas that are open to interpretation by each individual on the planet.

Quote from: Annwyn on July 26, 2008, 07:59:37 PM
No, each individual is responsible for the actions he/she commits.  And no matter what excuse they use, whether it be that they follow a religion or that they deserve revenge, will ever change that people are the ones committing those actions, and not a set of ideas that are open to interpretation by each individual on the planet.

I agree wholeheartedly that it comes down to individual action and individual responsibility, regardless of religion. That being said, I think religion (simply as a set of beliefs shared by a group of people) has a large influence on the actions of individuals.

If religion contributes to the actions of individuals (be those actions positive or negative) then I think it's only reasonable to point that out. Do you think these women would've been persecuted if they weren't in a Muslim country? Maybe, maybe not, but you can't argue that the situation would be the same.

I don't think anyone here is saying that all Muslims hate transsexuals (Iran has a wierd situation, just to name one) , the original comment expressed amusement at the contradictory faces presented: "Islam is a religion of peace" vs. "Arresting trans women is following Islam". I think it's a valid point.

Then again, I was always told growing up that no one ever agrees on religion or politics so you should quit while you're ahead.

Quote from: AlwaysLauren on July 26, 2008, 09:44:09 PM
I agree wholeheartedly that it comes down to individual action and individual responsibility, regardless of religion. That being said, I think religion (simply as a set of beliefs shared by a group of people) has a large influence on the actions of individuals.

No.  The suscriber chooses to accept those beliefs, because he/she agrees with it.
A person who joins a sect of beliefs that believes in terrorism(like Jihad) isn't made a terrorist, he already was one.

QuoteDo you think these women would've been persecuted if they weren't in a Muslim country? Maybe, maybe not, but you can't argue that the situation would be the same.

I can argue though that in ANY poverty stricken area such as much of the middle east is, radicalism and bigotry run wild, regardless of religion or cultural setting.  In those places, men are expected to PROVIDE, not run away from their duties and put on makeup(as they see MtF transsexuals as doing).  So I can argue that it isn't so much the religion that caused these unfortunate events, but the state of the economy and the effect it has on the mentality of the population.

QuoteI don't think anyone here is saying that all Muslims hate transsexuals (Iran has a wierd situation, just to name one) , the original comment expressed amusement at the contradictory faces presented: "Islam is a religion of peace" vs. "Arresting trans women is following Islam". I think it's a valid point.

No, we've just got that Tekla person insulting millions of people's beliefs that they live their lives by just because there are some idiots running around who say they're Muslims.

SF has an extremely low percentage of people who ID with a religion - though they all think of themselves, me excluded, as 'spiritual.'  And our TG pageant has to pay for PR and no one would ever think of shutting it down, much less arresting them.

Quote from: Annwyn on July 26, 2008, 10:22:19 PM
No.  The suscriber chooses to accept those beliefs, because he/she agrees with it.
A person who joins a sect of beliefs that believes in terrorism(like Jihad) isn't made a terrorist, he already was one.

That's just silly. You really think in a country like Malaysia being muslim is much of a choice? I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone that renounces Islam is in just as much danger as these TS women. Additionally, if someone is brought up in that sort of environment, where exactly does the choice come in? If someone is taught to be muslim from day one, there're likely going to be muslim with little or no choice involved on their part. You need only read further on this site to find people struggling with religious beliefs that are clearly self-detrimental simply because they grew up with them and can't shake them off. (Edit: I wouldn't be at all surprised if the TS women identified as Mulsim too)

Quote from: Annwyn on July 26, 2008, 10:22:19 PM
I can argue though that in ANY poverty stricken area such as much of the middle east is, radicalism and bigotry run wild, regardless of religion or cultural setting.  In those places, men are expected to PROVIDE, not run away from their duties and put on makeup(as they see MtF transsexuals as doing).  So I can argue that it isn't so much the religion that caused these unfortunate events, but the state of the economy and the effect it has on the mentality of the population.

You can argue that, but I think you'd be wrong. These women weren't arrested because they weren't providing for their families. They were arrested for being transsexuals.

Quote from: Annwyn on July 26, 2008, 10:22:19 PM
No, we've just got that Tekla person insulting millions of people's beliefs that they live their lives by just because there are some idiots running around who say they're Muslims.

You're out of line. Until now the conversation has been civil (and quite interesting I think). Pointing fingers and calling names is uncalled for, and I think you've badly mischaracterized Tekla's comment. Also, you think these people aren't muslims because of their actions? What do you mean by "idiots running around who say they're Muslims"?

Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2008, 05:26:49 PM
But I thought it was a religion of peace?  So much for religious (of any stripe) propaganda.

This comment says that the descriptions of religion are often different than the actions of their followers, a sentiment I completely agree with. I think calling this an insult to millions of people is one hell of a stretch. Either play nice or I'm taking my ball and going home.

Quote from: Annwyn on July 26, 2008, 06:08:25 PM

Quote from: tekla on July 26, 2008, 05:26:49 PMBut I thought it was a religion of peace?  So much for religious (of any stripe) propaganda.

Don't blame a religion for what people are responsible for doing.

Thank you for saying that.  It's not nearly said enough.