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I believed once.. about some inherent dignity and greatness about America. That it had problems, but we behaved (mostly) without barbarism. That we didn't torture people. We followed the law. We were accountable. We didn't kill people without ample reason. I served in the military, honored to serve my country.
I know now that things were really never as I thought in my innocence and naivety. But, things really have changed lately. I'm grieving for what has been lost. and am fearful for what is yet to come.
Tara

Just in case anybody can't read it, it says:
Everyone wishes to have truth on his side, but not everyone wishes to be on the side of truth.
-- Richard Whately

QuoteI believed once.. about some inherent dignity and greatness about America

Salem witch trails ring a bell?

Thanksgiving: Pilgrims looted an unoccupied Indian camp and stole their stored food. They were starving. "Forgiven"

Believing is not good enough, you need the facts and rational thinking.

Posted on: September 04, 2008, 02:16:16 PM

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Then there is the willingness for Americans to tolerate corruption. Just about everything we buy from China is made in a way to violate our laws if that facility was on American soil. Why do we prohibit slavery and pollution here but support it elsewhere? Then if we can not buy it we invade the country all in the name of consumerism.

What made America great was that people were actively involved in making it a better and more civil place. That premise still holds true today. I am a volunteer with a grassroots organization which seeks to create independent media that speaks about the concerns of poor and working people. I am also involved with a few organizations that are working for transgender equality. I never set out to be an activist but I can't sit idly by while the country is falling apart and transgender are discriminated against.

Gennee

QuoteWhat made America great was that people were actively involved in making it a better and more civil place.

At the expense of the rest of the world?

Quote from: lisagurl on September 06, 2008, 08:12:10 AM

QuoteWhat made America great was that people were actively involved in making it a better and more civil place.

At the expense of the rest of the world?

I believe that this can still hold true today. As transgender people we are making in roads because people are involved. I work for a grass roots organization which seeks to create an independent alternative to mainstream media. Do we do it at the expense of denying someone else their rights? Of course not. Yes, there were many things done that way and it shouldn't have.  It doesn't mean that we have to follow suit.

Gennee   

QuoteDo we do it at the expense of denying someone else their rights?

To force an religious Enterprise to hire a person that behavior is contra to their beliefs is denying someone else their rights.

To allow a religious enterprise to get away tax free is an insult to the rest of us also.

Quote from: tekla on September 07, 2008, 10:38:31 AM
To allow a religious enterprise to get away tax free is an insult to the rest of us also.

As long as it is non-profit and does not receive tax funds. Something Bush as skirted around.

Skirted around it?  He went thought it like a demolition derby.  And there are very few non-profit groups, the perferred term is "not for profit."  If you've ever seen the HeadQuarters of the leading "non-profit" corporations, its pretty obvious that someone is making big bucks from them.

QuoteIf you've ever seen the HeadQuarters of the leading "non-profit" corporations

My roommate worked in a Chicago Bank on the Salvation Army's stock portfolio. They could fund the Iraq war alone. I have to laugh every Christmas when I see the volunteers collecting change for them.

Quote from: lisagurl on September 07, 2008, 10:35:31 AM

QuoteDo we do it at the expense of denying someone else their rights?

To force an religious Enterprise to hire a person that behavior is contra to their beliefs is denying someone else their rights.

I don't see why anyone would want to work for an organization that is actively working against us getting out rights.

How about an x-ray technician in a Baptist Hospital?

Heck, I don't see where anyone living in the real world would want to work for people who have invisible friends.

Quote from: lisagurl on September 07, 2008, 10:35:31 AM

QuoteDo we do it at the expense of denying someone else their rights?

To force an religious Enterprise to hire a person that behavior is contra to their beliefs is denying someone else their rights.

So I take it denying medical care to a patient, say, for birth control pills or reproductive assistance, due to a practitioners religious beliefs is OK too?
Or am I just taking this out of context.

edit for clarity:
I understand the freedom to associate with like minded others, and by definition to discriminate against those whom one doesn't like.
But when does this "right" start to negatively others so they can't obtain a decent job, medical care, or any other privilege in society?

QuoteSo I take it denying medical care to a patient, say, for birth control pills or reproductive assistance, due to a practitioners religious beliefs is OK too?

We all have choices in this country. A private practice has the right to not serve you but a public Enterprise must. Now if we only had public services then you wold have a point. However not every club is open to the general public. Yes your rights stop where another's start. But remember all rights carry responsibilities.

Posted on: September 07, 2008, 04:49:14 PM

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Is it not true that this board has a selective membership?

Quote from: lisagurl on September 07, 2008, 04:51:25 PM

QuoteSo I take it denying medical care to a patient, say, for birth control pills or reproductive assistance, due to a practitioners religious beliefs is OK too?

We all have choices in this country. A private practice has the right to not serve you but a public Enterprise must.

So I take it this should not have happened?

QuotePosted on: September 07, 2008, 04:49:14 PM

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Is it not true that this board has a selective membership?

Yes, but in a way so that anyone can register and post/respond without submitting to an interrogation as to why they chose to register in the first place.

You have no right to a job, or to any privilege. 

America hasn't changed at all.
In 1820, 1890, 1920, 1930, 1960, 1980
I'm sure many of the elite said the same thing.

Whining about the good old days always comes from those who stand to lose
if the current situation continues (for example, blacks actually voting
and making a difference... Sooo frightening for some).

I'm kinda in the Voltaire camp, that this is the best of all possible worlds.  Sure things are messed up, but I think (outside of the government, and we never took that as being all too important in the first place) are better now for more people then they have ever been. 

Where people mess up is with a misguided notion of rights.  No one has a right to a job.  Most people work very hard and in the end - not the beginning - find some success.  The people I know who made it out of college were the ones who spent Friday night at the library not at the bar, who did books and not beer bongs, and who worked to learn all they could.  The people I know in my union who do well - six figures and all - spend 30 years working to that end. 

The people I know who did the best were the ones who made their own way when no other one was open for them.

I'm far more afraid that some new moron, who thinks that crashing an airplane after bombing civilian targets is somehow training for command than someone who would make the white house black.  But hey, I'm a liberal.