When I began therapy last year it was because I had trust issues with people. To break it down for you guys simply:

--I love myself.
--I care a LOT about other people.
--But I don't think anyone cares about me....At least not as much as I care for them, or anywhere near it.

That's why I had to go in therapy. Because I didn't think people cared about me, I would shut down and keep to myself, and not let people in because I felt used, taken advantage of.

Now it's happening again and I feel like I don't know how to stop it...Because I haven't quite learned how to get rid of that part of me. Do I continue to be used? I need to learn how to give 50/50 badly, rather than 80/20 because it only hurts me in the end.

I'm in such a bad mood about not trusting people that I don't feel like I can talk to anyone I know personally about anything because the two people I've talked to so far have made it sound like things were all in my head, but haven't given me any real way to fix it. I need help and don't know how to get it I only see my therapist once a week, and I can't expect her to do everything, I just don't know how to act anymore....

And part of it is that I feel this is all really unfair. Everytime I do something to someone (RARELY) I'm expected to change and be sorry. But no one else ever changes, and everyone else continues to walk all over me....it is painful.........Why should I always have to change but everyone else is perfect as they are??


I'm starting to shut people out already with my convoluted logic....... I want to take a hiatus from my GLBT club (IDK, Temporary or permanent) because it reminds me of deep personal traumas, with all the gossip and fronting going on all the time....It pulls me back to my past, when I'd had stuff like this happen before and I'm scared to be around when it happens again. I feel like, if I can  stop myself from being subjected to it, I should.... But everyone else keeps telling me there's gossip and sh*t everywhere no matter what part of life you're at and there's no way to stop it from happening...I know that, I just feel like I don't have to be around when it does. Cause it really hurts when I hear people talking about others, telling stories that weren't their's to tell....I've had very bad experiences in the past and if I can't get over them, this will inhibit me in the future from being able to deal with this in any means except running away. Running is all I know how to do...

I'm not a strong person I acknowledge that. I just don't know how to fix it.

Hi, Nate. *hugs*

I'm sorry for butting into a thread for the guys... but if I could offer a few thoughts I've had about your post.

I can kind of understand where you're coming from, because I sometimes have similar feelings. And it's really hard to make them go away once you start thinking that when you do something for someone, and it's not appreciated... or even acknowledged, then why bother, right? If it doesn't matter to them then why should it matter to you?

I can understand how you'd feel used or taken for granted.

But... I have learned a few things that really can help:

Firstly, it's not a good idea to base how much people care about you on how much you care about them, because when you do that... you're expecting everyone to have the same level of emotional awareness and emotional expression as you do. And it just isn't the case. You're a unique individual, and how you express yourself with regards to others is not going to be the same as how others express themselves with regard to you.

Because of this, if someone doesn't do or say things that you think they should (because if they don't then it proves they don't care)... that doesn't actually mean they don't care about you, or the things you do for them. It may just mean that they've been brought up differently to you, and learned a different way of expressing gratitude or appreciation. Maybe they think that is a sign of weakness (I know a few people like that personally), or maybe they think that you should just know how much they care about you, without saying a word.

Secondly, it's often a good way in life to do things for people just because you want to. If you care about someone, let the effect of that care be its own reward, y'know? Instead of expecting reciprocation, let the smile on their face make you feel good. Think "I did that. I made someone happy by <insert whatever you did>. And their happiness makes me happy. I don't want or expect anything for it, I was only using the ability I have to make things better for someone else."

Let kindness be its own reward, sweetie. And you'll find that the more you do things selflessly, the more people will reciprocate simply because they appreciate what you did without you having to say anything. But they'll do it in their own way, which may not be what you're expecting at all.

You can only be responsible for how you act in this world, honey. And you owe it to yourself to be the best person you know how to be. You can't be responsible for how everyone else acts, and the things they do and say. The only people who can be are the individuals themselves.

As for this part of your post:

Quote
And part of it is that I feel this is all really unfair. Everytime I do something to someone (RARELY) I'm expected to change and be sorry. But no one else ever changes, and everyone else continues to walk all over me....it is painful.........Why should I always have to change but everyone else is perfect as they are??

If you feel like people are walking all over you then you have the right to say "No, I'm not prepared to accept this". If you feel or think something, then you have the right to air your views. The thing about the above statement is that if no one else ever changes, then that's their choice to make. And if that choice means that they continue to be unpleasant and hurtful, then that isn't something that you can force someone to want to change. However, you can choose to change yourself, and again be the best person you can be. If you think you did something wrong, then apologising and changing yourself so it doesn't happen again makes you a better person than all those who choose not to apologise, and stay the same. They aren't perfect, Nate. They just don't have the compassion or humanitarian instinct to see what they did as wrong.

I know how hard this mindset is to change, honey, but the only person you have to live your life for is you. And the best way to do that is to both not measure yourself by anyone else's standards, but also don't measure everyone else by your own standards. Because they'll all be different.

Instead of thinking "This isn't fair, why is no one else making any effort?" Think "Screw what everyone else is doing, is this thing I'm doing making me a better person in my own eyes? Is this helping me live my life the way I want to live it?"

If you can answer yes to those questions, then that's all that matters.

Be true to yourself, honey. You're the only one you need to be responsible for. Let other people act as they will. You don't have to stop caring for other people, just understand that their idea of caring may be different to your own.

*big hug* You're not alone, Nate.

Quote from: Leiandra on September 09, 2008, 12:37:33 PM
Secondly, it's often a good way in life to do things for people just because you want to. If you care about someone, let the effect of that care be its own reward, y'know? Instead of expecting reciprocation, let the smile on their face make you feel good. Think "I did that. I made someone happy by <insert whatever you did>. And their happiness makes me happy. I don't want or expect anything for it, I was only using the ability I have to make things better for someone else."

See, the thing is I've been thinking this way for a while in an effort to try and rid myself of those negative feelings. And I try to see what people do for me, especially if it's something I don't expect. I can see it in some people. My thing is, where is the line? Where is the point that I'm being taken advantage of or just being a good friend? I don't know and it drives me CRAZY. So I don't know if people are actually walking all over me or am I just being a good friend. Sometimes when I get less back than I give though it definitely feels like being taken advantage of but I can't tell if I really AM receiving less or its all in my mind, or even if being taken advantage of is all in my mind.

Quote from: Leiandra on September 09, 2008, 12:37:33 PM
If you feel like people are walking all over you then you have the right to say "No, I'm not prepared to accept this". If you feel or think something, then you have the right to air your views. The thing about the above statement is that if no one else ever changes, then that's their choice to make. And if that choice means that they continue to be unpleasant and hurtful, then that isn't something that you can force someone to want to change. However, you can choose to change yourself, and again be the best person you can be. If you think you did something wrong, then apologising and changing yourself so it doesn't happen again makes you a better person than all those who choose not to apologise, and stay the same. They aren't perfect, Nate. They just don't have the compassion or humanitarian instinct to see what they did as wrong.

What about when those people are your own family members? I've had that issue for years, and it's just building up and building up (and it may be at least 5% of the reason I moved). They always complain about me and tell me how selfish I am, but never mention any of the good things I do for them, or I guess never remember them. What am I supposed to do about that?

In regards to friends, I feel like I always do that but somehow cannot separate saying "no" from saying "I don't want to be friends anymore." It's like my mind only works in extremes....

Thanks for the hugs, I really needed them.

And thanks for the wonderful advice, I'm taking all that you said into consideration, and I eagerly await a response on the extra things above that I'm still confused about.

I have to say I absolutely agree with Leiandra 100%.

As someone who helps and is always there for his friends, and even people he doesn't like all too well, I know exactly what its like to feel like you're getting a one sided deal. And while its not exactly fair that we don't get the same treatment in return I agree that the best way is to think not of the reward but of whats 'right and wrong' in your own minds eye. Or at least, thats how I see it. I help and do things for people not because I expect something but because theres something inside of me that says its the right thing to do.

And I think that helps take away the disappointment when things don't go your way and you feel you're being taken for granted.

Perhaps people expect you to do something that they normally wouldn't be expected of, or their demands of you are quite high is because they do see you on a higher ground than them in that sense. Perhaps they put you on a pedestal of sorts because they know someone of your character is at that level... maybe some people look up to your caring and compassion and expect great things of you. So through that, if that is the case, then they do care and they do appreciate it. Its probably not the best way to show it but it is a form of it.

You guys [and girls] are truly awesome, I am thinking seriously about what you said, and actually seeing light and reason behind it.

I can't believe I've been in therapy for a year and have fixed the problem in less than a day, OUTSIDE of therapy with the help of friends rather than a trained therapist.

And it just goes to show how much I've changed in a year because had I posted something like this a year ago, I would have been angry and upset by the responses rather than take them into consideration and try to see them rationally.

So far so good, thanks.

Quote from: trapthavok on September 09, 2008, 02:18:05 PM
They always complain about me and tell me how selfish I am, but never mention any of the good things I do for them, or I guess never remember them. What am I supposed to do about that?

I'm going through something similar with my partner now, and it bloody HURTS to think that all of the little ways that I thought I was showing him that I loved him were ignored or invisible. He apparently needs me to validate and value him in particular ways that I wasn't doing. So I'm taking a hard look at myself to figure out how I really do relate to him and how we operate together and what he needs.

Coming out is in many ways a uniquely selfish act. Not bad selfish, just acting for the self and putting oneself above everyone else. I venture to guess that everything you do--no matter how good or loving it is--is now seen by your family in the light of the "selfish" act of coming out. I don't know what you can do about this except be aware of it and, if you are able and willing, try to give them more of what they need from you. But that might not be practical, palatable, or even possible.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but I care about you and hope that you can figure out what to do and how to be. You have a lot going for you. I keep remembering certain things, though.

I believe it was Dennis who told me that the period before physical transition is the hardest.

A prof once told me, "If you can get through the first year of grad school, you can finish all of it."

And my therapist agrees with me that transition is not just a physical phenomenon. Before we transition physically, we are already undergoing psychological transition.

Put 'em all together. Maybe they help, I don't know. I hope so.

I feel isolated and alone much of the time these days. Intellectually, I know that I'm not alone. Emotionally, I feel that I'm on a desert island thousands of miles from anyone. For me, the trick is to use my intellect to prop up my emotions. It's not always easy, and it doesn't always work. But it does work some of the time. If that's just enough to get me through, well, that's all I need for now.

Plus, I lurk on Susan's Place a lot. 

I know that you can find your way through this. Your family might not be with you one hundred percent right now, but we are.

Quote from: trapthavok on September 09, 2008, 02:18:05 PM
See, the thing is I've been thinking this way for a while in an effort to try and rid myself of those negative feelings. And I try to see what people do for me, especially if it's something I don't expect. I can see it in some people. My thing is, where is the line? Where is the point that I'm being taken advantage of or just being a good friend? I don't know and it drives me CRAZY. So I don't know if people are actually walking all over me or am I just being a good friend. Sometimes when I get less back than I give though it definitely feels like being taken advantage of but I can't tell if I really AM receiving less or its all in my mind, or even if being taken advantage of is all in my mind.

Give me a few examples. Maybe that will help clarify things a bit. If any of it's financial, then there's an easy way to remove the question of 'how much is too much', instead of giving... make it clear that you're only lending. That way there's no question of whether you're being taken advantage of.

Emotional support is harder to define. And this is where you have to start thinking about what kind of people you're dealing with. Are they that way with everyone or just you. If it's everyone, if they act the same no matter who they're dealing with, then that's just who they are and nothing you've done or haven't done will play any part in their response. It's conditioned through the experiences they've gone through in their lives, and what sort of people they are.

You can be a good friend and still be taken advantage of, Nate. The one doesn't preclude the other. Maybe a good thing to do is to write down a list of what you expect from people, what you consider to be showing that they care, and what you consider to be taking advantage of you.

Quote
What about when those people are your own family members? I've had that issue for years, and it's just building up and building up (and it may be at least 5% of the reason I moved). They always complain about me and tell me how selfish I am, but never mention any of the good things I do for them, or I guess never remember them. What am I supposed to do about that?

I think there's a possibility that the reason for this might not have anything to do with you personally at all. I think that they're simply using transference and making you a convenient target for their own feelings about their lives. It's easier to be frustrated if you have a focus for that frustration, if you have something or someone to blame... whether that is justified or not. To the person in question it makes it valid. Like "well I can't really say I'm p****d off for no reason, so... I know, I'll blame it on Nate. He's going to think it's true because of what he's going through, so then I can get it out of my system and convince myself that I have a good reason for it even though I don't".

What are you supposed to do about it? Nothing.

If nothing you can do will ever please them, then you'll spend the rest of your life trying and it will only make you more and more frustrated and angry. Please yourself, honey. Make yourself the best person you can be... then they'll have nothing to complain about as a by-product. They'll have to find a new target.

Good things people do, in family situations especially, are often taken for granted. "Well of course you did that, you're family." And they seem to be the most easily forgotten for the same reason.

Quote
In regards to friends, I feel like I always do that but somehow cannot separate saying "no" from saying "I don't want to be friends anymore." It's like my mind only works in extremes....

I know just what you mean, honey. It sounds like you could use a bit of assertiveness training. One thing that is important to remember is that saying no to someone doesn't mean, in their mind, that you're saying "that's it, it's over." People don't expect you to do everything they ask of you. And often will ask just on the off-chance, fully expecting you to say "are you out of your mind!?" And if you start saying no a few times, establishing a few boundaries, then eventually people will know they can't walk all over you, that there are things that are a step too far... and once that happens the things you do agree to will be seen as more valuable and worthy of appreciation because there will be no question of an "oh, Nate will do anything you ask him to" mindset.

Is that how you feel, Nate? That if someone says no to you, that they're rejecting you rather than your request?

Try it a few times and see. If you really don't want to do something, just say no. If you don't feel comfortable with that at first, give a reason why not (real or one you make up). You'll see that a friendship won't come suddenly crashing down because you've exercised your right to refuse something. They're more robust creatures than that, honey.

Quote
Thanks for the hugs, I really needed them.

And thanks for the wonderful advice, I'm taking all that you said into consideration, and I eagerly await a response on the extra things above that I'm still confused about.

*extra big squeezy hug*

Hang in there, sweetie.

Quote from: Arch on September 09, 2008, 02:49:22 PM

Quote from: trapthavok on September 09, 2008, 02:18:05 PM
They always complain about me and tell me how selfish I am, but never mention any of the good things I do for them, or I guess never remember them. What am I supposed to do about that?

Coming out is in many ways a uniquely selfish act. Not bad selfish, just acting for the self and putting oneself above everyone else. I venture to guess that everything you do--no matter how good or loving it is--is now seen by your family in the light of the "selfish" act of coming out. I don't know what you can do about this except be aware of it and, if you are able and willing, try to give them more of what they need from you. But that might not be practical, palatable, or even possible.

Lol the funny part is, they thought I was selfish for a long time even BEFORE coming out, maybe years before for all I know and they've voiced it along the way every now and then. I sacrificed my sleep for my mother every morning, waking up at 6 am to drive to school with my father when sometimes I didn't have class til 3pm and would just be on campus for hours, tired, and alone with nothing to do but homework or go crazy. If I complained even ONCE about it, I was being selfish, so I never complained except maybe the 1% of time where the schedule had to be altered slightly and I had to pick dad up or something even when I had something to do. Mom got to sleep in the extra half hour and use the other car herself because I gave up my sleep for hers. But I was a bad son because maybe I didn't wash the dishes often enough for their taste.

That's just one example.

I don't know what they think about me now that I've come out, but I'm sure my selfish meter has gone up a bit.  I think it's pre0coming out examples that bother me more though.

Quote from: Arch on September 09, 2008, 02:49:22 PM
I feel isolated and alone much of the time these days. Intellectually, I know that I'm not alone. Emotionally, I feel that I'm on a desert island thousands of miles from anyone. For me, the trick is to use my intellect to prop up my emotions. It's not always easy, and it doesn't always work. But it does work some of the time. If that's just enough to get me through, well, that's all I need for now.

I feel the same way bro I know I'm not alone, but... Like I used to think a lot when I was a freshman, how uncomfortable I was when I'd go eat in the cafeteria (alone) for lunch or dinner. I was happier physically alone in my room, but suddenly very lonely when I was surrounded by people. I'm surrounded by people now, maybe people who care about me, and somehow I still feel lonely. So I'm gonna grab an umbrella and shorts and I'll join you on that island We'll make a vacation out of it

Quote from: trapthavokI don't know what they think about me now that I've come out, but I'm sure my selfish meter has gone up a bit.  I think it's pre-coming out examples that bother me more though.

<bad attempt at advice>
I'm thinking of it this way, In order to be a good caregiver, (not intending any presumption) you have to have taken care of yourself first.

I learned a long time ago to stop giving of my self UNLESS I WANT TO give freely for whatever reason with no expectations.  I used to give and give yet when I needed help/advice/shoulder to cry on nobody gave a ->-bleeped-<-.

I decided that I can't care more than they do or I'll drive myself crazy.  Maybe they do care but don't know how to show it.  When I do things because *I* want to then it doesn't matter if it's not reciprocated.  If someone chooses to do something nice for me it's a bonus; me doing a kindness was my own personal kind of reward.

My family I'm sure thinks I'm selfish, and maybe I am.  But that came from never (well I can't say never, but a lot of the time it holds true) getting my needs met by my family or friends, even though I was there for them.  With one exception: my college buddy Kevin who helped me above and beyond (letting me borrow his brand new car so I could get to work off campus, for one thing!) most of the other people in my life including family.  Now I pick and choose who I want to help and when.

If you let go of the expectations it's hugely helpful for your own peace of mind.  In my job I had to learn that, too.

Jay

Quote from: trapthavok on September 09, 2008, 02:59:24 PM
Lol the funny part is, they thought I was selfish for a long time even BEFORE coming out, maybe years before for all I know and they've voiced it along the way every now and then.

Dayyam. I kind of forgot about this. So your coming out only exacerbated the existing state of affairs.

I suppose this all has a lot to do with your particular family's dynamic, and your disappointment has a lot to do with what you want from your family and aren't getting. Perhaps I'm stating the painfully obvious here, but what I'm getting at is this: is your family, at least at this point, able to give you what you want/need from them? Are you desperately craving something that they cannot or will not give? If so, then somehow you must alter your expectations--I know, easy to say, hard to do--or you must foster an environment in which they CAN fulfill some or all of your needs.

You said something earlier about not expecting your therapist to "do everything," but it seems to me that this is just the sort of problem that she can and should help you with. If it's at all possible, you should have clear understanding and a reasonable degree of support from your family. If you don't have these things, that's where the talk doc comes in. Maybe you could even make a special appointment just for that or write her a letter about the situation so you can jump right in next time.

I don't know how much I (or anyone) can help with advice, but just know that I'm here and pulling for you.

Hi, Nathan, Well I really don't have much to add here. You have already found a roomful of wonderful advice, especially from Leiandra.

All I can add is that as a social worker, I was lucky to have 1 positive case result out of 10 I assisted. I believe we are pretty well aware of when and what affect we have had on another individual every time we have interactions with other people.

You need to set and keep your own personal boundaries as they are necessary for your own mental and emotional health and hygiene. Don't move them until such a time as you are certain you can handle someone else's problems, hangups, indifferent, or non-responsive attitude. Be assertive enough with yourself to be able to handle these results which may be more often in the negative than positive.

Cindy

Quote from: Leiandra on September 09, 2008, 02:53:51 PM

Quote from: trapthavok on September 09, 2008, 02:18:05 PM
See, the thing is I've been thinking this way for a while in an effort to try and rid myself of those negative feelings. And I try to see what people do for me, especially if it's something I don't expect. I can see it in some people. My thing is, where is the line? Where is the point that I'm being taken advantage of or just being a good friend? I don't know and it drives me CRAZY. So I don't know if people are actually walking all over me or am I just being a good friend. Sometimes when I get less back than I give though it definitely feels like being taken advantage of but I can't tell if I really AM receiving less or its all in my mind, or even if being taken advantage of is all in my mind.

Give me a few examples. Maybe that will help clarify things a bit. If any of it's financial, then there's an easy way to remove the question of 'how much is too much', instead of giving... make it clear that you're only lending. That way there's no question of whether you're being taken advantage of.

Emotional support is harder to define. And this is where you have to start thinking about what kind of people you're dealing with. Are they that way with everyone or just you. If it's everyone, if they act the same no matter who they're dealing with, then that's just who they are and nothing you've done or haven't done will play any part in their response. It's conditioned through the experiences they've gone through in their lives, and what sort of people they are.

You can be a good friend and still be taken advantage of, Nate. The one doesn't preclude the other. Maybe a good thing to do is to write down a list of what you expect from people, what you consider to be showing that they care, and what you consider to be taking advantage of you.

Nah, I don't carry money on me JUST for that reason. I never let people borrow money from me. NEVER. That can seriously mess up a friendship (or even family, based on how my mom's still angry at her cousin....)

I guess the main example I have for right now is that I don't know what everyone does for me but I know what I do for them. So maybe I need to write things down like you said, and hopefully figure it out.

Quote

Nate's Example

Ok ok here's the example for real: We had a meet and greet, fun and games type of intro party to our GLBTQ club here on campus.... One of my friends (whom I used to consider a best friend) is president of our club, so I always help out and get things ready before events. That part I don't mind, I used to do it to have time to hang out with her, but now I just really like doing it for myself and not so much to be around her anymore. I don't hold an official position in the club, because I'm more helpful without one. I like helping.

The problem that arose that night was that my friend was feeling like crap that night. I don't know exactly what her problem was, but because of it, she kept taking everything that happened that night as a personal hit on her. She thought no one respected her and listened to her [not true] and then wouldn't talk to me for 3 days. I didn't know at the time that she was feeling bad because I was having  a great time, and I'm personally dense when it comes to other people and if they're having a bad day, but I could tell once she started getting quiet and left early. I kept asking her what was wrong over those 3 days and telling her if she wanted to talk about it, ever, I was here. The way she was acting, I thought someone in her family had died (I'm being serious here, I'm not joking) she was just THAT upset.

This friend, I used to consider my best friend because I used to be able to tell her anything and get advice, whether I asked for it or not. She never really talked about herself, but I figured that she would open up in time (my mistake, that's one of my flaws I have to fix). So when she came to the meeting three nights later and announced she was quitting as president because she'd been so miserable at the party and felt she'd been disrespected, it came as a surprise for me, and as kind of a shock because it was like.... That's all you were upset about and you couldn't even tell me that? I thought we were tighter than that. Then she texts me and apologizes for not telling me, then goes on about how I hurt her feelings at the party so I don't think she was especially sorry.

I'm a clown. I crack jokes a lot, and yes if you're in a bad mood, it can be taken the wrong way. So I made sure she knew that. She acted as though she knew it was partially her fault for getting upset at the jokes I'd made, but was still mad at me for making them while she was upset. I don't know when people are upset, you can't just assume I can read your mind, and that's what I told her. I would have never made jokes had I known she was upset, I'd have tried to cheer her up. But because she was upset with me this ONE time, I was supposed to be sorry and know that she was upset with me. She could have told me right there at the party and said "please stop" and I would have stopped, but instead she chose to wait 3 days and then say I hurt her feelings, at which point I'm over it. What bugs me most is that she even brought it up because if you're feeling bad about something else, everything's gonna turn sour in your eyes, even my jokes so there's no reason to be mad at me especially if you didn't tell me you were feeling bad.

It ticked me off because I've been such a good friend to her and vice versa that she wouldn't talk to me 3 days over something that stupid that I had NO control over...... It just goes to show maybe we weren't as good friends as I'd thought. Because she's hurt my feelings multiple times in the past, but I've tried to dismiss it rather than confront her about it because I think I was just in the mindset that we were closer than we actually are, and it was probably in my head, so I've never brought those things up with her. I figure its all me, and I'm just presuming too much of our friendship. But she gets mad this ONE time and its like the world must shatter.

I don't know if that was a good example or not, I am really bothered by her right now so she's the only friend I can call to mind. (This isn't the only reason she's bugging me but it's one of the big reasons, yes).

What you said about my family sounds about right, Leiandra. It will be hard for me to not take what they say personally, but I will try.

Quote from: Leiandra on September 09, 2008, 02:53:51 PM
Is that how you feel, Nate? That if someone says no to you, that they're rejecting you rather than your request?

Try it a few times and see. If you really don't want to do something, just say no. If you don't feel comfortable with that at first, give a reason why not (real or one you make up). You'll see that a friendship won't come suddenly crashing down because you've exercised your right to refuse something. They're more robust creatures than that, honey.

Yes, that's exactly how I feel. Whenever I get invited places by friends, I go (if I have the time). But whenever I invite people and they say they're coming, then don't show up and text me about how tired they are and maybe next time, I take it as personal rejection. Same thing goes for when they just flat out reject me in the first place. I feel as though I shouldn't feel that way based on what you said though, I've never seen the difference before your question.

I don't have problems saying no to people, I just have problems separating my saying "yes" as "yes I'm doing it because I'm your friend" or "yes I'm doing it because I want to." That's where I get hurt because my yeses are usually meant the first way.






To everyone else who posted, thank you so much. You all are so very wise, and I will have to reevaluate myself based on all the advice I got. I need to make boundaries like cindy said, and I need to work on things with family. It pains me to say it but you're probably right Arch. As I've said, my family never changes, only I do, so all the past therapy sessions we've had together have changed nothing, so maybe I should just expect less from them. We are a family of selfish people living under one roof (well I moved) and it's not going to work... Jay you're very correct. I need to only give if I want to give.

Nate I can say from reading the title.. that you are not alone everyone here is willing to listen. Personally if you ever want to talk about something you can always drop me a message as Im on here 24/7 and I will get back to you dude! You are never alone!

Quote from: trapthavok on September 10, 2008, 01:36:25 PM

Nate's Example

Ok ok here's the example for real: We had a meet and greet, fun and games type of intro party to our GLBTQ club here on campus.... One of my friends (whom I used to consider a best friend) is president of our club, so I always help out and get things ready before events. That part I don't mind, I used to do it to have time to hang out with her, but now I just really like doing it for myself and not so much to be around her anymore. I don't hold an official position in the club, because I'm more helpful without one. I like helping.

The problem that arose that night was that my friend was feeling like crap that night. I don't know exactly what her problem was, but because of it, she kept taking everything that happened that night as a personal hit on her. She thought no one respected her and listened to her [not true] and then wouldn't talk to me for 3 days. I didn't know at the time that she was feeling bad because I was having  a great time, and I'm personally dense when it comes to other people and if they're having a bad day, but I could tell once she started getting quiet and left early. I kept asking her what was wrong over those 3 days and telling her if she wanted to talk about it, ever, I was here. The way she was acting, I thought someone in her family had died (I'm being serious here, I'm not joking) she was just THAT upset.

This friend, I used to consider my best friend because I used to be able to tell her anything and get advice, whether I asked for it or not. She never really talked about herself, but I figured that she would open up in time (my mistake, that's one of my flaws I have to fix). So when she came to the meeting three nights later and announced she was quitting as president because she'd been so miserable at the party and felt she'd been disrespected, it came as a surprise for me, and as kind of a shock because it was like.... That's all you were upset about and you couldn't even tell me that? I thought we were tighter than that. Then she texts me and apologizes for not telling me, then goes on about how I hurt her feelings at the party so I don't think she was especially sorry.

I'm a clown. I crack jokes a lot, and yes if you're in a bad mood, it can be taken the wrong way. So I made sure she knew that. She acted as though she knew it was partially her fault for getting upset at the jokes I'd made, but was still mad at me for making them while she was upset. I don't know when people are upset, you can't just assume I can read your mind, and that's what I told her. I would have never made jokes had I known she was upset, I'd have tried to cheer her up. But because she was upset with me this ONE time, I was supposed to be sorry and know that she was upset with me. She could have told me right there at the party and said "please stop" and I would have stopped, but instead she chose to wait 3 days and then say I hurt her feelings, at which point I'm over it. What bugs me most is that she even brought it up because if you're feeling bad about something else, everything's gonna turn sour in your eyes, even my jokes so there's no reason to be mad at me especially if you didn't tell me you were feeling bad.

It ticked me off because I've been such a good friend to her and vice versa that she wouldn't talk to me 3 days over something that stupid that I had NO control over...... It just goes to show maybe we weren't as good friends as I'd thought. Because she's hurt my feelings multiple times in the past, but I've tried to dismiss it rather than confront her about it because I think I was just in the mindset that we were closer than we actually are, and it was probably in my head, so I've never brought those things up with her. I figure its all me, and I'm just presuming too much of our friendship. But she gets mad this ONE time and its like the world must shatter.

I don't know if that was a good example or not, I am really bothered by her right now so she's the only friend I can call to mind. (This isn't the only reason she's bugging me but it's one of the big reasons, yes).

Okay, here are my thoughts on this. First of all, one thing that's important to remember from the get-go is that emotions are very rarely rational. And cold logic is something that usually doesn't get a look-in with the heat of emotional responses in full flow.

Women are emotional, intuitive people, honey. And our emotions are often closer to the surface and a lot more easily manipulated. Your friend sounds like she was suffering with, amongst other things, a bad case of low self-confidence and low self-esteem. When that happens, the perceptions of a person are overwhelming and all-encompassing. Whether what they're feeling with regard to themselves and their self-worth is accurate or not... that doesn't make a shred of difference. You could have choirs of angels proclaiming how magnificent they are and it would fall on deaf ears. If someone is low on self-esteem then, by its very nature, they're going to think that they're worthless and that nothing they do is ever good enough. They have to realise that's not the case by themselves, and heaven knows that's a hard thing to do.

I suspect that it's this very reason that she didn't open up about herself to you. And here I can speak from personal experience. It's not because of you and anything you've done or haven't done... but, as you said, you were able to talk to her about anything and get advice on your issues whether you wanted it or not. This, I think, was her way of dealing with her own mental state... by focusing on you and yours. By doing that, she could afford to not think about how she was feeling by helping you and concentrating on how you were feeling.

The reason she may have waited so long to say anything to you... there are three possibilities that I can think of:

1. She was forced to deal with the way she was feeling after so long trying to not think about it. And it was like a dam breaking. Her emotions were just so overwhelming through however long she'd spent bottling everything up and trying to escape them by focusing on other people (perhaps a reason she wanted the position of authority at the club -- a way to not have to think about her own feelings by busying herself with other things) that, for a while, she couldn't think about anything else except how she was feeling.

This is no reflection on you, or your friendship. It's simply that her mind was so overloaded with the way she was feeling that she had to try and make sense of it or she would feel like she was losing her mind.

2. She may have taken what you said far more seriously than you did, and it may have been a much bigger deal to her than it perhaps should have been, due to her state of mind, exactly because she thought a lot about your friendship. As I've said elsewhere, the people that hurt the most are the ones that you're closest to. And if you're in an emotionally vulnerable frame of mind, where anything anyone says is taken negatively (when normally it wouldn't bother you), then for someone close to you to be percieved to have hurt your feelings... magnify the normal effect by a factor of ten and that's how much it matters. It's like being stabbed by your soulmate.

As I said, emotions aren't rational processes, and fuelled by being down to start with, they can reach astronomical levels of intensity and meanings are assigned to actions that, at any other time, wouldn't be given a second glance.

Because of this, maybe that length of time was simply her wanting to retreat from the whole world, who she thought were all against her. And, unfortunately, that 'world' may have included you. That doesn't mean that she considered you less of a friend... but exactly the opposite.

I think that, in the cold light of day, it's easy to realise that getting upset was ultimately an irrational thing to do, and baseless. But when emotions are running high, the notion of whether you should be getting upset at something is usually relegated to the 1% of the brain that isn't taken up with the other 99% screaming "Oh, God, that hurt! Why would he say that? I must be a horrible person... useless... worthless... no one cares... everyone hates me!"

3. She didn't think that she should say anything to you because she knew how stupid it would sound if she admitted that she'd been hurt by things that she shouldn't have been. Add to that the fact that you never say anything to her when you've been hurt... maybe she just thought that was how the mechanics of your friendship worked. That when something bothered you, you just don't talk about it. And because of that, she was hesitant to say anything to you because of the way she felt about what you'd said.

I don't know exactly what you said that she took the wrong way, but one other thing is... when people begin to feel bad through what others say, often they become like rabits caught in a car's headlights... too stunned to say anything by the thought that it's happening at all. Like "WTF? How could xxxxx say that!?" And that shock is usually enough to stop the person saying "Stop it" or anything like that because they're too busy trying to assimilate the fact that it's happening at all. It ends up being like a bad dream that you can't wake up from.

I don't know this person, Nate, but I do recognise the signs of how she was feeling, and those are just a few ideas as to why based on the times I've felt like that myself. I may be completely wrong about everything... but don't be so sure that her reaction is because she isn't as committed to the friendship as you are. It may be totally the reverse, and the way she's acting is exactly because she considers you such a close friend.

QuoteYes, that's exactly how I feel. Whenever I get invited places by friends, I go (if I have the time). But whenever I invite people and they say they're coming, then don't show up and text me about how tired they are and maybe next time, I take it as personal rejection. Same thing goes for when they just flat out reject me in the first place. I feel as though I shouldn't feel that way based on what you said though, I've never seen the difference before your question.

It's not likely to be a personal rejection against you, honey. Sometimes people don't want to do things because they're not in the mood, or because they don't feel well, or they have other plans or whatever. That absolutely doesn't mean that they think any less of you, or won't want to do somthing with you the next time you ask them. It just means that you may have caught them at a bad time. I'm sure you have those yourself, right? When you just want to be by yourself and chill or something? Have a little 'Nate Time'?

Friendship is good, and hanging out with friends is a great thing. That's undeniable. But you, and others, have lives outside of that friendship. And it doesn't have to be an all-consuming thing where every time you don't do something then the entire friendship is called into question. I mean, if it starts being every single time then yes, I would agree with you that something might not be right. But the odd time when someone just isn't in the mood to do something, they aren't rejecting you for asking, sweetie... only what it is you're asking them to do. Which isn't the same thing at all. It doesn't mean they think any less of you. *hugs*

QuoteI don't have problems saying no to people, I just have problems separating my saying "yes" as "yes I'm doing it because I'm your friend" or "yes I'm doing it because I want to." That's where I get hurt because my yeses are usually meant the first way.

I think a good step is to make your affirmatives lean more towards the second way, Nate. Do things because you want to, not because you feel you have to in order to keep the friendship going. Ask yourself if you really want to do what someone's asked you to. If the answer is no, then say no. Just like people don't think less of you as a friend by saying no to something you want to do... they aren't automatically going to assume you don't want to be friends with them when you choose not to do something they want.

You're an individual, honey, with a mind of your own. And you can choose what you do and don't want to do. Plus, if you do things because you want to then you'll have a lot more fun doing them than you would if you think you've been left with no choice. And so will the people you do them with. So when you do decide to do something then you'll know, and they'll know that you're doing it out of genuine desire and not out of a sense of obligation. That will mean more to all of you.

Ok I'm not going to have time to read the entire response since I have work in 5 but I appreciate the response Leiandra.

I will give a better reply either tonight when I get home, or tomorrow when I have time.

But for now all I have to say is that the reason I feel so strongly about this example is because it was a stupid and irrational thing for her to be upset. You said females are emotional, and I'm thinking with cold logic....well maybe I just don't understand women!!! Hahaha.

Thing is though I'm not one who likes to talk about feelings and what's bugging me (at least not to people I know in person, yay Susan's!) I'm the kind of guy you have to crack open with a crowbar before he talks. So that she got me to open up was a big deal to me, which is why I guess I thought our friendship was more than it is. Second, if we're such good friends, then the things she's done to me in the past say that we're not because I always give 100% and she only gives 40 or less. You're right, she just listens to my problems to distract herself from hers because when I change to her  she doesn't want to talk.

What scares me most about this friendship is that I used to have a friend like her a couple of years ago that I tried to cling really hard to because she was my only friend. I have more friends now so that's not the case here...What IS the case is that this friend only wanted me when it was convenient for her, and whenever I wanted something back out of her, I'd never get it, she'd always have something to do, etc and I just kept getting more and more hurt til I broke down. I'm scared to repeat the past. I'm scared that this new girl is going to do the same thing to me, use me when she needs me (like listening to my probs to ignore hers) but never be there for me when I need her.

But wait, put that on hold cause I've gotta go.


And thanks Jay, I appreciate it. Will do in the future.

I can definantly say your not alone.  I've been stuck in the same situation with my family.  And I used to give everything and receive little.  I was never happy because I gave and gave and gave but recieved little but pain.  And now I'm selfish because I started taking care of myself instead of giving to everyone unconditionally.  I still like to help people and still give sometimes, sometimes when shouldn't.  (in fact not carrying money with me keeps me from giving to beggars lol) but I also been trying to take care of my self.   Though there are things I still feel obligated to do.

But for now all I have to say is that the reason I feel so strongly about this example is because it was a stupid and irrational thing for her to be upset. You said females are emotional, and I'm thinking with cold logic....well maybe I just don't understand women!!! Hahaha.

Thing is though I'm not one who likes to talk about feelings and what's bugging me (at least not to people I know in person, yay Susan's!) I'm the kind of guy you have to crack open with a crowbar before he talks. So that she got me to open up was a big deal to me, which is why I guess I thought our friendship was more than it is. Second, if we're such good friends, then the things she's done to me in the past say that we're not because I always give 100% and she only gives 40 or less. You're right, she just listens to my problems to distract herself from hers because when I change to her  she doesn't want to talk.

What scares me most about this friendship is that I used to have a friend like her a couple of years ago that I tried to cling really hard to because she was my only friend. I have more friends now so that's not the case here...What IS the case is that this friend only wanted me when it was convenient for her, and whenever I wanted something back out of her, I'd never get it, she'd always have something to do, etc and I just kept getting more and more hurt til I broke down. I'm scared to repeat the past. I'm scared that this new girl is going to do the same thing to me, use me when she needs me (like listening to my probs to ignore hers) but never be there for me when I need her.

CONTINUED VVV

My thing is, why are women's feelings so much more important than men's to a lot of women? (I'm not going to stereotype all women, but this one specifically who I'm talking about makes it seem that way). It's okay for her to hurt my feelings repeatedly like I don't have any, but it's not ok for me to hurt her feelings just once, WHICH should NOT even be counted because she was feeling bad about something else and so it technically wasn't me.......

It just seems like a load of b*ll and very unfair because I have feelings too.

Honestly, posting this a day later was a bad idea, because that's the only point I can remember lol.

I'm working on this internally, separating my emotions for others from obligations with them, etc. It's working so far. It just really sucks cause I really get attached to people, then see things that aren't there.

What I've come from this experience with is that I'm just not attractive to the opposite sex or someone would have told me so by now at least, let alone asked me out, or not rejected me when I ask them out Convoluted thinking, yes, but the girl I've been talking about is the only girl who has ever told me I'm attractive...then turned me down. Lol clearly not attractive or good enough, or something.

Quote from: Aiden on September 11, 2008, 11:15:21 AM
I can definantly say your not alone.  I've been stuck in the same situation with my family.  And I used to give everything and receive little.  I was never happy because I gave and gave and gave but recieved little but pain.  And now I'm selfish because I started taking care of myself instead of giving to everyone unconditionally.  I still like to help people and still give sometimes, sometimes when shouldn't.  (in fact not carrying money with me keeps me from giving to beggars lol) but I also been trying to take care of my self.   Though there are things I still feel obligated to do.

I feel ya man =/ but I'm glad you've turned away from that at least. I have too, especially by moving out, or whatever, for my sanity.

Quote from: trapthavok on September 11, 2008, 01:29:18 PM

Quote from: Aiden on September 11, 2008, 11:15:21 AM
I can definantly say your not alone.  I've been stuck in the same situation with my family.  And I used to give everything and receive little.  I was never happy because I gave and gave and gave but recieved little but pain.  And now I'm selfish because I started taking care of myself instead of giving to everyone unconditionally.  I still like to help people and still give sometimes, sometimes when shouldn't.  (in fact not carrying money with me keeps me from giving to beggars lol) but I also been trying to take care of my self.   Though there are things I still feel obligated to do.

I feel ya man =/ but I'm glad you've turned away from that at least. I have too, especially by moving out, or whatever, for my sanity.

Yeh, moving out is a good thing.  I was going nuts dealing with my family when they kicked me out.  And while was upset at being kicked out back then I am glad of it now.  It allowed me to be who I needed to be.  To develope independence and mature more.   

Quote from: trapthavok on September 11, 2008, 01:29:18 PM
My thing is, why are women's feelings so much more important than men's to a lot of women? (I'm not going to stereotype all women, but this one specifically who I'm talking about makes it seem that way). It's okay for her to hurt my feelings repeatedly like I don't have any, but it's not ok for me to hurt her feelings just once, WHICH should NOT even be counted because she was feeling bad about something else and so it technically wasn't me.......

But you said yourself that you always dismissed it and never confronted her about it when she did hurt your feelings. So if you never said anything, did she even know she'd hurt your feelings, and if she had... would her reaction have been different?

I'm not trying to defend her, Nate, I'm just saying that people's reactions to situations will be as different as the people themselves. Put yourself in her place for a second and ask yourself how you'd have handled it. What would you have done differently?

You say that you chose not to say anything when she hurt your feelings out of respect for the friendship you have/had with her. Maybe her idea of respect for the friendship was to be honest with you and tell you why she felt the way she did, even though it took a while and you may not have wanted to hear it (maybe the two are connected and she waited because she knew you'd think it was stupid).

It's not a case of the importance of feelings between men and women as much as the willingness to express them, regardless of the cost.

Quote
It just seems like a load of b*ll and very unfair because I have feelings too.

Of course you do. And if someone hurts them then you have the right to say something. People don't know they've done wrong until you tell them. *hugs*

Quote
What I've come from this experience with is that I'm just not attractive to the opposite sex or someone would have told me so by now at least, let alone asked me out, or not rejected me when I ask them out Convoluted thinking, yes, but the girl I've been talking about is the only girl who has ever told me I'm attractive...then turned me down. Lol clearly not attractive or good enough, or something.

You don't know that for sure, honey. Did you ask her why she turned you down?