I wonder why?

The grass is greener on the other side?

Perhaps androgyny only becomes apparent when they do to to lean that far.

Quote from: Flan Princess on September 09, 2008, 03:16:23 PM
The grass is greener on the other side?

Seems reasonable to me.

Maybe we are generally denied the aspects that the opposite sex offers so we crave it, that is both behaviour and in appearance. In rejecting your assigned birth sex/gender as something that does not match your internal identify the obvious way to go about this is to be not it. In a binary society to be not your birth sex means to be more like the opposite sex.

But I also believe that ->-bleeped-<- and gender results from physiological brain 'stuff'. I think humans are, by default, female minded and something happens to code us as male in our larvae development stage i.e. pre birth. But this process does not always go to plan and could happen imperfectly. The result is a gender identity that is a mix, or neither or more one way or another. The tendency then is an attraction to femininity in biomale androgynes or vis versa as our brains are imperfectly masculinised (and maybe ftm androgynes have partially masculinised female brains). Perhaps this is a little controversial as this kind of says that humans are built to be binary gendered and we are a variation of that process of 'gendering'.

I kind of based this on the stuff I have been hearing about how MtF transsexuals have very feminine brains in terms of their structure so it seemed logical to me that whatever makes our brains one way or another could get stuck along the way or be incomplete.

Quote from: Nicky on September 09, 2008, 03:37:15 PM
Maybe we are generally denied the aspects that the opposite sex offers so we crave it, that is both behaviour and in appearance. In rejecting your assigned birth sex/gender as something that does not match your internal identify the obvious way to go about this is to be not it. In a binary society to be not your birth sex means to be more like the opposite sex.

But I also believe that ->-bleeped-<- and gender results from physiological brain 'stuff'. I think humans are, by default, female minded and something happens to code us as male in our larvae development stage i.e. pre birth. But this process does not always go to plan and could happen imperfectly. The result is a gender identity that is a mix, or neither or more one way or another. The tendency then is an attraction to femininity in biomale androgynes or vis versa as our brains are imperfectly masculinised (and maybe ftm androgynes have partially masculinised female brains). Perhaps this is a little controversial as this kind of says that humans are built to be binary gendered and we are a variation of that process of 'gendering'.

I kind of based this on the stuff I have been hearing about how MtF transsexuals have very feminine brains in terms of their structure so it seemed logical to me that whatever makes our brains one way or another could get stuck along the way or be incomplete.

I fully agree with all that you say, Nicky.

In my case, I am finding that my need to adopt a more feminine appearance is a reaction against sixty years of trying (and largely failing) to make it as a man. The move towards femininity has been successful to the extent that I have been able to convince my therapist of the need for oestrogen.

I like your point about humans being built to be binary gendered. In order for our gender to match our sex we would therfore have to be hermaphrodites....perhaps that is a future stage in human evolution.

Incidentally, regarding the binary issue, I have also head it said that bisexuality is the natural human condition.

However, being an androgyne in a 'binary' society is very difficult and society has to learn to accept us and eventually find a role for us to play.

Quote from: Melissa on September 09, 2008, 03:25:54 PM
Perhaps androgyny only becomes apparent when they do to to lean that far.

I agree with Mew. I think androgynes have to have a strong leaning towards their opposite physical sex or otherwise they'd never even notice they were androgyne.
A female born individual with masculine traits would have to lean heavily to the male side to realize she's not just a tomboy.
If everything were perfectly balanced I doubt you guys would have any issues or interests in your gender.

Quote from: Nero on September 10, 2008, 02:08:34 AM

Quote from: Melissa on September 09, 2008, 03:25:54 PM
Perhaps androgyny only becomes apparent when they do to to lean that far.

I agree with Mew. I think androgynes have to have a strong leaning towards their opposite physical sex or otherwise they'd never even notice they were androgyne.
A female born individual with masculine traits would have to lean heavily to the male side to realize she's not just a tomboy.
If everything were perfectly balanced I doubt you guys would have any issues or interests in your gender.

It took me a few to figure out exactly what this topic was about, but I have to agree after thinking about it.

And Flan Princess said the grass is greener on the other side; sometimes 'tis true. But why not just knock down the fence or at least give me a doggy-door so I can go freely between the sides

What other direction would you lean, backwards?

i said yes too.  but then, I'm a mess anyway.

Looks like we're getting concensus.  I agree with all of you.

The only thing I can add, perhaps, (because I don't want to just be another "me too" poster ) is that perhaps clothing is the one element that can be changed easily.  So to achieve the balance, you go a little "extra far" with the clothing.  Hence, biomales may focus on the female clothing elements, to compensate for their male physique, whereas biofemales may focus on the male clothing elements, for much the same reason...  Basically, if your body is one side or the other, and you want to promote a 'middle' appearance, you have to counter balance it with a bit of an excess somehow.

...Paul

Quote from: Rebis on September 10, 2008, 08:05:40 AM

i said yes too.  but then, I'm a mess anyway.

but you're a cute mess and we all love you. 


I think you could add to the wanting what we don't have to also a rejection on some level of what we are (biologically, anyway). 

a mess like a van goch painting is a mess,

I think yes!

I have a male body and a mixed gender.

Certainly there are bio females here that feel the same.

To me this whole androgyne deal is kind of frustrating. I need some resolution. But there is none other than to be who you are 

I can't speak for anyone else, however this androgyne leans more toward feminine. I'd always thought if I had a female body, my presentation might lean toward butch/masculine. I think being perceived as a mix of both or neither appeals to me. In other words, I'd be who I am no matter what sex my body was.

Z

The idea that perhaps more androgynes long for feminine bodies may be because women have a LOT more leeway in society to adopt masculine appearances.  A woman wearing jeans & a t-shirt is no big deal.  A man wearing a skirt is subject to massive ridicule.  If you can "pass" female, you can probably more easily "live" androgyne...

...Paul

Quote from: CryoMax on September 11, 2008, 12:35:24 PM
A woman wearing jeans & a t-shirt is no big deal.  A man wearing a skirt is subject to massive ridicule.

I think a suit is more analogous to a dress than jeans are.  I think a woman wearing a suit would get some funny looks, but that's about it.

Quote from: CryoMax on September 11, 2008, 12:35:24 PM
The idea that perhaps more androgynes long for feminine bodies may be because women have a LOT more leeway in society to adopt masculine appearances.  A woman wearing jeans & a t-shirt is no big deal.  A man wearing a skirt is subject to massive ridicule.  If you can "pass" female, you can probably more easily "live" androgyne...

...Paul

I've thought of this too and heard it said elsewhere in regard to why there are not so many self identified female bodied androgynes.

I am not sure how much of what I feel internally and physically is a product of hard wired need or a reflection of what society says I can't do. I really feel that I would still have a strong desire for a feminine body even if there were no gender boundaries in society - it goes beyond presentation. It is like I can sense this overlay on my body which is like the pattern for how my brain thinks it should be.

I started Male and need to get away from that but there are somethings that are important to me that will never happen If I become too female. for me to be a dad or at least a parent but the fear is that I'll never find someone who will love me as the freak I will become as a bearded Lady (without srs)

I have a need for femininity but i don't think it's a need for female-ness.