somethings obviously bother me more than others about being stuck in the wrong shell. i've noticed that most of my ftm friends all have different hang up about what usually prevents them from passing and are very self conscious about it (ex. voice, chest, facial hair or lack of, etc).

so my question is what "gives you away"? (i really don't like how that's worded hence the quotation marks, but can't really think of anything else to call it)

i guess this is more of a question for pre op trans guys and gals, but could also be what it used to be for post ops.

-tino-

the beard shadow and that's about the size of it. More than once though (I live in a funny area) I have been totally perceived as female on days I did not shave, which is odd. I hear sir when I don't expect it, when I'm SO not feeling that, and the converse is true.
Lotta baritone women in Richmond the voice is not so key. I'm a musician I can to some extent modulate that if I feel it. Don't care that much actually, it is what it is. High school kids staring 'is that a dude or a chick" I think it's a chick" it's all good.
Now if I was on the make, the whole thing of presentation takes on a different significance doesn't it?

I haven't had much of a problem.  As I identify weaknesses, I fix them.  For facial hair which I was able to cover well, I got laser and for voice, I got speech therapy.

Melissa

Pre-T it would've been my voice and face, which although I had masculine features, was definitely female. Now that both have changed, I think I come off as gay occasionally, but I haven't ever had anyone question my gender.

Dennis

Tino,

    For me it had always been my chest. I have only been binding full time again since April. Once I started there is not a problem accpt last night. Pam got a new car, a purple Mazda 3 hatchback. Very sporty. Anyway, it was late so we went out to dinner instead of going home and cook somthing frozen. So there we are at the table and the very young waiter says "can I get you ladies something to drink"? Then when he comes back with the margatitas, he said "here you go ladies" I said "->-bleeped-<-" and he turned around and as he was walking away I must have heard me say "Im not going to listen to this anymore"  so when he came back and started to refer to us as "guys" does this mean he realized his error? I don't know but I was pissed. I told Pam I wasn't hungry although I was starving. It hasn't happened sice I started binding, so now all I want to do is hide until my surgery is done. Pam thinks that maybe it is my smooth skin of my face and the lighting was low as to not see my bit of beard. I think she is just trying to make me feel better.

                                                 Marco

                                             

One thing I've noticed in the joint meetings my support group has with the FTM group is clothing, and that there's a weird sort of mirror image thing going on there.

A lot of new MTFs tend to dress much younger than their age, and while they generally look younger than they really are, they don't all look that much younger! Among the FTMs, just the opposite is true; especially in the early stages, they tend to look much younger than their years, and more than once I've seen what looked like a teenager dressed like a man in his forties.

MTFs also tend to overdress in a lot of situations. A little black dress and heels just look out of place at the grocery store. Some FTMs tend to wear rather baggy clothes to help hide things; sometimes that can give the impresion of a kid in his father's suit.

If we're trying to 'pass', the last thing we want is anything that makes us stand out. Since we grew up on the opposite side of things, so to speak, it takes us a while to learn what fits in and what doesn't.

Annie

This is going to sound silly...But my walk so i'm told

Yeah I got this really screwed up walk where im switching but still have this male dip going on (and its worse in heels!LOL) i actually find it kinda of amusing
thats why I'm a fitted jeans & sneakers girl..

Oh and I wear a Gay Pride Bracelet around my left wrist
(dead give away) that something aint normal

Prefering not to blend in
Chynna

I haven't been out all that much yet, just to support group meetings - but I'd have to say my nose/upper lip combo looks very male.  Fortunately an easy fix (if ya gots the $$$) thru FFS. 

Narrow hips and absolutely no butt, I guess, too but I never look at myself from behind so I'm not sure.  I'm hoping the hormones will have an influence on the butt - the hips I just gotta live with, I guess.

Beard shadow is going from light brown to grey so it isn't too hard to cover up - it'll probably get worse to deal with when I'm out for longer periods of time.

These are all guesses though, I'll really find out when I start getting some feedback from the publik.

My lack of hair (male pattern) would be a clue for most people too    if I didn't use a wig.

helen

QuoteSo there we are at the table and the very young waiter says "can I get you ladies something to drink"? Then when he comes back with the margatitas, he said "here you go ladies" I said "->-bleeped-<-" and he turned around and as he was walking away I must have heard me say "Im not going to listen to this anymore"  so when he came back and started to refer to us as "guys" does this mean he realized his error? I don't know but I was pissed. I told Pam I wasn't hungry although I was starving.

marco,

i could have written the same thing almost word for word (except the pam to amy thing) about an experience we had in a restaurant. i wish there was a simple, non-embarassing, tactful and clear way to correct someone when they say "ladies" "girls" or "she". About the waiter coming back and changing it to "guys", it's hard to tell if he realized his error, of that he's just not sure and wants to be safe (even though he really wasn't in the first place).

it's situations like this that make me think 'what am i not doing right? my binder isn't doing it's job. my clothing is too feminine, voice isn't masculine enough'. not to a point of obsessing, but just all of it at once just kind of hits me.

about 85% of the time i'm viewed as male, but b/c of the age difference between amy and i, and (like annie social here) since i look like i'm apparently anywhere from 14 to 16 i'm seen as her son! we've gotten that a few times, like when the paramedics came to the house for me (breathing problems), they just assumed she was my mother (one asked if she was my grandmother for christsake!!).

although days like you had yesterday suck... A LOT... it's that percentage of the time that we're viewed as male that we have to really hang on to. even though we may be seen as male most of the time, it's that couple of times (or even once) that someone says something stupid like "what can i get you ladies" that make me forget about how i'm normally seen.

i've made huge progress in my transition in the past 2 days that has almost made me forget to be self conscious! 2 days ago I got the consent form to begin t therapy. and yesterday, my legal name change (FINALLY) came in the mail.

congrats on the new mazda 3 (they handle amazingly, and fast too)!

              -tino-

Quote from: wolfie on June 11, 2006, 02:53:50 AM
i wish there was a simple, non-embarassing, tactful and clear way to correct someone when they say "ladies" "girls" or "she".

If you have a fairly passable male voice, how about clearing your throat?  I think that's what men would normally do.

Quote from: wolfie on June 11, 2006, 02:53:50 AM
about 85% of the time i'm viewed as male, but b/c of the age difference between amy and i, and (like annie social here) since i look like i'm apparently anywhere from 14 to 16 i'm seen as her son! we've gotten that a few times, like when the paramedics came to the house for me (breathing problems), they just assumed she was my mother (one asked if she was my grandmother for christsake!!).

That so reminds me of when I first got together with my wife.  She's about 8 years older than me.  Because of my feminine face, people were always asking if I was her son.  I had to change my appearance somewhat to make myself look older.  I cut my hair different, gained some weight, and grew some facial hair and that seemed to work.  Now I am so happy to have such a feminine face.  Seeing pictures of me with facial hair actually makes me feel nautious now.

Melissa

thanks melissa, the clearing of the throat thing i do when i'm uncomfortable anyways, but maybe being conscious of it might help.i find that clothing is a huge thing, i've always worn the same style of clothing (baggyish lowish jeans, hoodies, t-shirts, skateshoes). it's time that i kind of "grow out" of wearing that all the time. it'd be really helpful if you or anyone has any suggestions of styles or what might help to make me appear older.

Hey Tino,
         Congrats on your consent to start T and you name change!!  I'm sure you've read around here that Marco got his name change last Monday.  He just got his T letter yesterday.  He has his "intake" appointment with the T doctor tomorrow.  He won't get his first injection tomorrow because they have to do initial bloodwork to see what dose to start him on, but hopefully sometime by the end of this upcoming week!
         Yeah, the other night at the restaurant was not a pleasant experience to say the least.  Here we were supposed to be celebrating and some ignorant calls us ladies.  Don't get me wrong, I like being a lady, but Marco's not, thus doesn't appreciate being called one.  Marco has a really low voice (from being on T previously).  He is never taken for anything but a guy on the phone, but my theory is that he has really smooth facial skin and that is the only thing I see that could possibly make someone question.  He binds his chest, packs his pants and wears male clothing.  I don't get it!  We were talking about if it ever happened again what we would do.  I asked him if he would mind if I said something (I didn't say anything then because I wasn't sure if that would just make him madder).  He said it wouldn't bother him if I said something.  If it does happen again, I am just going to say something to the person where I refer to Marco as "he".  For example:  if someone said "How are you ladies doing this evening?"  I will just say "He isn't doing very well and I am o.k. ...thanks for asking though". 
        O.k.  I know I am going on and on like I have a tendancy to do, but I just wanted to make some clothing suggestions to you.  Real baggy jeans is definitely a young thing.  Marco wears levis, Abercrombie & Fitch jeans and other brands too, but he doesn't wear them baggy.  They aren't skin tight, but fitting enough that you can see something "there".  I personally am not a "package-checker-outer" but Marco is convinced that people "look", and I'm sure most do.  I mean Marco doesn't have some huge monster in there, but enough that it looks very realistic and not like some femmy crotch.  As far as hoodies go, I wear hoodies, but not with baggy jeans.  I think it's what you wear the hoodie with that makes it look like a young person's attire.  Same thing with T-shirts.  Marco wears nothing but T-shirts (except when he's dressing up), but he doesn't wear them with baggy jeans.  Skateshoes are definitely a young thing too.  My son wears skateshoes, but Marco wouldn't wear them.  Marco wears boots a lot.  I don't mean like Cowboy boots, but kind of like a workboot type thing.  He also has a pair of Harley Davidson biker boots that are really cool.  One of the reasons he wears boots, I think, is because he is shorter than I am and it makes the difference in our height a little less.  Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to tell you that you dress wrong, but you asked for suggestions.  I am one that doesn't care how others view me, what counts is that I know who and what I am.  I say, if you are comfortable wearing the clothes you wear, you should be able to wear them without worrying about what others think.  But that is easy for me to say.  Society gets so hung up on labels, looks and status, that they forget that there is a human being under all that stuff.
         One more thing...MY CAR!!!  The turning radius on that thing is phenominal!!  It does handle really well.  When we come up there, we will probably drive because airfare costs so much, so we will be in it.  It gets really good gas mileage too.  That was one of the most important factors with gas prices being what they are now!

Take care,
Pam

My suggestion for a possible style is to look a little more GQ.  Try colored dress shirts with slacks.  I know there are similar women's versions, but many times it can really make you look male.  MAybe go to a clothing store and try on a bunch of different outfils and see what makes you look more or less male.

Melissa

Marco,
Sometimes it can be just one thing the waiter/waitress/whoever looks at and they get the gender wrong. My sister (who is quite an attractive, feminine woman) had an incident like yours.
She had just gotten a very short haircut and we went to a restaurant. The waitress asked her, "And, what will you have to drink, sir?" My sister immediately burst into tears. My sister dresses like any normal female and she was wearing makeup. The lighting was dim, and the waitress saw short hair and equated that with "male".
It's probably as your lady said, you have smooth skin and nice features, and the lighting was dim. Remember, when you're sitting down, they're not seeing the whole package. I'm sure had my sister been standing, there wouldn't have been any confusion.
I know it hurts like hell when it happens, but it often happens to nonTS people as well. Even those who look decidedly feminine or masculine. We're just ultra-sensitive to it.
Don't give this episode another thought.
Congratulations on your T letter!
Nero

Quote from: Nero on June 11, 2006, 03:23:38 PM

She had just gotten a very short haircut and we went to a restaurant. The waitress asked her, "And, what will you have to drink, sir?" My sister immediately burst into tears.

What did the waitress do when she saw your sister burst into tears?  I understand about how much that would hurt to have a haircut and suddenly they see you as a different gender than you are.  I was so hypercritical of my haircut after I got it and if I started getting sirred right after I had it, I would have burst into tears as well.  Instead I got ma'amed and I was still presenting as male.  That made me feel a hundred times better.

Melissa

The waitress immediately recognized her mistake and apologized, but it was too late. I told her off anyway. But, I know it was just an innocent mistake.

Nero

For me my voice will let me down from time to time.  Not often and no big deal really.  My job requires that I teach pre-schoolers and Kindergarten children school bus safety and the "First Riders Program"  It only happens when I have to raise my voice over the children.  It's nothing serious, I will get questions from the children like "Why do you sound like a boy", or they will laugh and say "You sounded like a boy".  I laugh with them and either say that I have a funny voice or i tell them that lots of ladies sound like me.  Children at this age are very perceptive and fortunately their comments or questions are quite innocent.

I still love teaching them as the rewards are wonderful and worth every minute I spend with them.

Steph

Hey everyone,

I think it's the guitar.



In all seriousness, I really don't know. When I decided I was going to go full time, I also decided I was not going to worry about what others think. Worrying about passing is worrying about what others think, so I never really gave much regard to it.

I later realized that being more passable meant being hassled less and enjoying my bliss more. After being encouraged by my wife, I got a wig and breastforms. I still don't know what gives me away.  I supposed I just have a manly looking face, but in all honesty, I can't see myself objectively.  I see Elizabeth no matter what I do.

I would not be offended if someone would be kind enough to be as frank as possible and tell me. My initial thoughts are, I am a man in a dress.

Love always,
Elizabeth

Thanks Nero-
    I am pretty hard on myself, and I just don't have the personality like Pam and Melissa to make more of a smart ass comeback. I just get mad.

                                  Marco

Elizabeth,
I'll be frank with you.
You do not have a manly looking face. You have a lovely face and a lovely smile. And judging from the guitar picture, your figure is definitely that of a woman's as well. You "pass" very well.
Nero