I was at Chili's with my campus' GLBT group and there's a transgirl in the group. I ended up sitting across the table from her. She's gorgeous, very verrry passable until she speaks, and totally confident. She's an exchange student from Thailand, and her English is mostly fluent. She's a little blunt, but it may be a language thing. Anyway. She thought I was a lesbian, and told me so. -places palm on forehead and shakes his head- I usually pass, so this sucked. But I guess she's hyperaware, like I am. Anyone else had a similar experience?

I saw a transgirl at the bus stop today. I had met her about a month ago I think, and only once. But I saw here today, just for the second time. I could never forget her. She really is quite pretty (although she doesn't pass the best). Even when a transgirl doesn't pass, I still usually think they're pretty. It's the "energy" they have.

Well, I've never had a transgirl call me a lesbian. But I did have someone call me a "she" at the LGBT group I attend. I let them call me a she, because right now, I'm technically both. I identify as a he and my body is 100% a she. So I don't call anyone out on pronoun switches. If they call me a lesbian, though, I correct them for sure. If I'm anything, I'm... I don't know what I am. Lol.

Quote from: gravitysrainbow on September 23, 2008, 08:45:11 PM
I was at Chili's with my campus' GLBT group and there's a transgirl in the group. I ended up sitting across the table from her. She's gorgeous, very verrry passable until she speaks, and totally confident. She's an exchange student from Thailand, and her English is mostly fluent. She's a little blunt, but it may be a language thing. Anyway. She thought I was a lesbian, and told me so. -places palm on forehead and shakes his head- I usually pass, so this sucked. But I guess she's hyperaware, like I am. Anyone else had a similar experience?

Well, you were at the GLBT group, and so that kind if narrowed it down to gay male or you know what.  I guess you don't vibe gay male.

Quote from: Elwood on September 23, 2008, 09:02:52 PMIf I'm anything, I'm... I don't know what I am. Lol.

Adorable. 

I always thought I seemed pretty gay, but I guess not. Or at least I'm not her idea of gay. And Dan, I correct pronouns, but I didn't used to. Once I started, though, I couldn't stop.

Quote from: luna on September 23, 2008, 09:16:27 PM

Quote from: Elwood on September 23, 2008, 09:02:52 PMIf I'm anything, I'm... I don't know what I am. Lol.

Adorable. 

Yes, brain farts can be so very charming!

I'm getting used to how other queer people always clock me, even though I pass well enough with straights. Other queer women always know, in my experience. I just don't want to feel othered by them when they do. A lot of them seem to take for granted that lesbians are one group, and "transgender" is a different group, and they take it for granted that I go in the latter instead of the former. Why, I guess just because of the construction "LGBT." Four letters implies four discrete categories. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis in linguistics says that the language we use to describe the world determines how we see the world. This would be an illustration of that principle.

I want to say to them "No! No! I'm lesbian too!" Trans is not a sexual orientation, and thus not necessarily a discrete group within LGBT; it spreads across the other 3 instead of being separate from them.

I'm involved in LGBT activism because I'm lesbian. I know lots of activists who are, like, professional transgender -- but I actually got motivated to get involved because of the gay & lesbian issues.

Omg Sapir-Whorf! I have a friend who refuses to believe it's true (and had some slightly logical reasons) but your example will really make sense to him. He was actually talking with me about the B and T always coming last, with only the G and L switching places, and what that says about our society. Thankyou Hypatia, I believe you just helped me win an argument! -grin- Anyway, back to the clocking topic, I hope I get used to it soon. I plan to spend a lot of time with queer people for the next year or so. My Lambda pals are my new best friends.

Posted on: September 24, 2008, 04:01:54 AM

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Omg Sapir-Whorf! I have a friend who refuses to believe it's true (and had some slightly logical reasons) but your example will really make sense to him. He was actually talking with me about the B and T always coming last, with only the G and L switching places, and what that says about our society. Thankyou Hypatia, I believe you just helped me win an argument! -grin- Anyway, back to the clocking topic, I hope I get used to it soon. I plan to spend a lot of time with queer people for the next year or so. My Lambda pals are my new best friends.

I've had the complete oppisite in my cases...
I went out dancing at a place in Seattle and I was dancing with a really nice guy who had no idea I was a trans-woman.
Next thing I know, this girl comes up to me and starts dancing on me (totally making the straight males look)
She started to grab my chest and I kinda hesitantly abided when, in a heap of disappointment she remarked
"You're not into girls are you?"
I simply replied "I'm sorry, I'm not"
She turned me around and pushed me back towards the nice guy.
I ended up seeing her later and she said I'd make a wonderful lesbian.
I told her I was actually a trans-woman and she was taken really aback
So I guess... I pass as a straight woman after all huh?
When I'm out an about, I've never been asked ONCE by either man, or woman.
But I guess it's just how I look. No. It's how i feel.

On the other heart, in my area, I've clocked several trans men and women both and they are are quite receptive and I love them now as my friends!

Have clocked several local ones interestingly.  But there probably is a number of them besides the obvious one that surprised me that haven't clocked.  I try not to say anything most time though.

As for the LGBT, for some reason most in the LGB area think I'm Butch.  and one transwoman asked me if I had a girlfriend...    I lean more towards men, but really am more attracted to personality and can see attractiveness in both.  Find that am attracted to people who also cross gender boundries

Quote from: gravitysrainbow on September 24, 2008, 04:02:44 AM
Omg Sapir-Whorf! I have a friend who refuses to believe it's true (and had some slightly logical reasons)

So do a lot of linguists (although they tend to read the hypothesis in a more strict manner than how Whorf originally wrote it). The big division is between those who think that the ability to use language is an autonomous thing, separate from other aspects of human thought, and those who think language cannot be separated from the rest. Various descendants of Chomsky's generative theory fall in the first group, the different brands of cognitive linguistics in the second. The modern cognitivist formulations are not exactly the same as the original Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but close enough: the main thing is still that language -- including grammatical categories -- is tightly coupled with the rest of human cognition, and so the categories a language uses do not only reflect the way its speakers think but also influence it.

But yes, the GLBT grouping is a nice example of how the labels influence the way people see things. There are other examples in the gender categorisation too.

  Nfr

I don't know if clocked is right word for when have noticed someone who is trans but try not to give them away to others

I picked "clocked" because she wasn't being quiet about it at allll. She was just like, "I thought you were a lesbian!" and then "But no, you're the opposite of me, right?" And I sortof stammered a bit and then said yes before she said anymore and got people wondering.

I have never been "clocked" by another Trans person I have only seen a few MTF's and one FTM I know that FTM because I went to school with him from primary school and have known him since I was about 7-8 and then I went onto high school with him I never talked to him he was bullied alot but that was another whole story.. I can remember what they used to say and how I would be scared people would find out about me too.

I guess either I dont pass or I do so well no one sees me as trans.. One woman thought I was MTF which was funny!

Quote from: Seshatneferw on September 25, 2008, 07:24:22 AMBut yes, the GLBT grouping is a nice example of how the labels influence the way people see things. There are other examples in the gender categorisation too.

It would be clearer if I gave a concrete example of what I was talking about.

I was talking with a lesbian at the Capital Pride Festival this year. I had first met her at the Lesbian Services Program where she worked. I had been hired by the LSP as a volunteer, but my position had been canceled due to budget cuts. So when I saw her again at the festival, I mentioned how I wanted to become more active again in the lesbian community like that, and did she know of any opportunities for volunteers. Oh, and I never mentioned trans anything.

She helpfully suggested, "There are transgender-identified groups you could volunteer with." Fail! Clocked again. Even when the clocker's intention is benign, it's still disappointing. I said,

"I'm not 'transgender-identified.' I'm woman-identified."

I would like to be able to identify and be active as just a lesbian. For me transgender is not an identity. Even though for some individuals it is. I just can't see it as an identity, personally. The lady I was talking with had reified "transgender" as its own identity parallel with her lesbian identity, a category she decided all on her own that I must belong to, instead of belonging to hers. I'm not sure if she was some sort of separatist, making her reluctant to accept me as a lesbian, or just committing a category fault. Or as we would say nowadays, "category fail."