When we do not suffer pain, we are no longer in need of pleasure, and we enter a state of 'perfect mental peace' .

other philosophical systems sort of say the same thing, but I've never really been sold on it.  Pleasure and pain are part of being human.

In all duality there is a hidden unity.

At least hidden from most, who find the dualisms to be non-relational.

Nichole

What, that's there are two kinds of people in the world, the ones who divide everyone into two groups, and those who don't?

P.S. Whenever anyone in my presence utters the words "in a perfect world" I stop them and remind them that a) in a perfect world no one would say that, and B) in my perfect world you wouldn't be telling it to me now.  Seems to work.

Ethics and morals do not bring us happiness but allows us to be worthy of having happiness. Our own reasoned rational morals and ethics bring us the ability to worthy, as the dogma of religious beliefs are difficult to apply to modern life and leave us frustrated with shame and guilt a painful situation that swings between extreme pleasure and pain. It seems depression is a result of prolonged guilt.

Lisa, you've been reading too many Victorian Age moral philosophers who profitted greatly by being part of an aristocratic elite that dominated the world and made lots of other folks miserable as hell with that domination. "Worthy" of happiness?

Hmmm, so my worthiness means I can walk a hundred yards and be beside a beautiful river and the poor slob who wasn't worthy has to live at the base of a slag mountain in West Virginia or on the tidal margin in Bangladesh?

Do you really accept that?

Nichole

According to one of the greatest thinker in 18 th century: Ethics is not about pleasure/ suffering or even good/evil it is about doing what is right with respecting humanity as a goal not as an instrument.

Quoteit is about doing what is right with respecting humanity as a goal not as an instrument.

Ethics
Branch of philosophy concerned with the nature of ultimate value and the standards by which human actions can be judged right or wrong. The term is also applied to any system or theory of moral values or principles. Ethics is traditionally subdivided into normative ethics, metaethics, and applied ethics. Normative ethics seeks to establish norms or standards of conduct; a crucial question in this field is whether actions are to be judged right or wrong based on their consequences or based on their conformity to some moral rule, such as "Do not tell a lie."

If it is based on conforming to some moral rule. Morals are different for different cultures and indeed for different people. So right and wrong are also different. Perhaps your personal morals are based on compassion but not everyone's are. To believe that there is only one right way will cause you many hardships as not everyone would agree with your morals. It does start to get into a belief, that is when religion clashes with the physical reality.  Right or wrong based on there consequences is another gray area as the consequences are not always predicable.

Posted on: September 27, 2008, 02:56:40 PM

---

QuoteWorthy" of happiness?

Yes, not the aristocrat place in society but personal anguish of just and unjust as a person that looks at themselves. The way people get depressed because the feel no self worth due to their failings. The difference between what we think the dogma of morals expect of us and what we personally are capable and see as the best we can do. Many cannot accept being who they are. They feel guilt in not living up to some out side standard that they had no power in making. So that is what I mean by "worthy". You own self punishment.

Quote from: lisagurl on September 26, 2008, 02:38:29 PM
When we do not suffer pain, we are no longer in need of pleasure, and we enter a state of 'perfect mental peace' .

yeah. but one can't turn on the news and not be in pain. nature allows such suffering. it's not a matter of not suffering pain; the real question everyone wants to know is, how much pain can you take?

and the answer is, an awful damn lot of it.

um, and if you can't take it, you will be replaced by someone else, who, supposedly, can.

Ah, who can take the most pain? Sounds like a wonderful contest, ellie!! How many can we get to join ya suppose?

Will there be a party?

Nichole

Yes. I agree that my ethical views are problematic. Nearly every smart  person diagrees. Generally no real norminative ethics can based on emotions or consequences I agree on that. But there are metaphysical and even epistemological ways that can be used to support different views about ethical norms.  In some way even relativism is relative.   

Quote from: Nichole on September 27, 2008, 10:18:23 PM
Ah, who can take the most pain? Sounds like a wonderful contest, ellie!! How many can we get to join ya suppose?

Will there be a party?

Nichole

anyone who doesn't join is sidelined and marginalized.

Quoteyeah. but one can't turn on the news and not be in pain.

Why not? Do the light waves pierce your skin. There is a big difference between physical pain and that which self induced by your morals and beliefs of the future or events effecting your life. Is the glass half full or half empty? You have the choice to feel pain or happiness.

Quote from: lisagurl on September 27, 2008, 10:46:09 AM
Ethics and morals do not bring us happiness but allows us to be worthy of having happiness. Our own reasoned rational morals and ethics bring us the ability to worthy, as the dogma of religious beliefs are difficult to apply to modern life and leave us frustrated with shame and guilt a painful situation that swings between extreme pleasure and pain. It seems depression is a result of prolonged guilt.

I thought depression was the result of an imbalance or lack of neuraltransmitters.

The quantum mechanics of your brain start a chemical reaction which no one has figured out yet. But the result is forming certain chemicals. You can take chemicals to override the natural formation. Hence the antidepressant drugs which some are from the same family as LSD.

In this conversation there a lot of influences from old world Greece.

The placebo effect is a matter of the belief system creating mind altering chemicals.  Read "The Cure Within" by Anne Harrington a Harvard teacher.

Sorry, my philosophy is not as high level as yours. 

Quote from: goingdown on September 28, 2008, 11:40:47 AM
Sorry, my philosophy is not as high level as yours. 

I don't think it is a matter of levels. Knowledge is a path, there never seems to be an end.

Quote from: lisagurl on September 28, 2008, 11:13:30 AM

Quoteyeah. but one can't turn on the news and not be in pain.

You have the choice to feel pain or happiness.

yes, if you are a Borg. for the rest of us, especially those who have been traumatized by varying degrees, psychological pain is not always something you can just turn off like a faucet.