Quote from: Claire de Lune on September 27, 2008, 03:18:10 PM

Quote from: Nichole on September 27, 2008, 11:25:28 AM
Ask me about the War of the Roses.

Mistrals or American Beauties?

Yorks v. Plantagenets and we get Tudors in the end.  I'm a Yorkist!

Figures, I can see you helping Buckingham make sure the little lads Edward and Richard in the Tower were strangled and then leaving your buddy Richard Rex afoot screaming something about "for want of a nail!!"

You guys should have left Warwick in-charge if ya wanted to win that little skirmish.

Of course, what with Spider Kings, an Aragonese player and that crafty ace Bolingbroke, perhaps you were doomed to failure anyways. Sometimes the times just point in a direction we don't wanna face. The end of chivalry and the beginnings of actual thinking monarchs, at least for a few decades.

I think tekla may have been right about your travel options back in that day, Claire. I can see you hooking up with Reynald de Chatillon and insisting that Guy de Lusignan should definitely leave Tiberias and the oasis to travel through a parched landscape with no water and lots of heavy armor, "after all your Highness, only about 20,000 well-watered Saracens and we are bringing the True Cross with us! Heck, when we get to the Horns of Hattin we can take the high-ground and have them right where we want 'em."

Just kidding of course.

Nikki

Posted on: September 27, 2008, 04:28:55 PM

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BTW, all money is fiat money, my dear, if there's no gold or something else of value besides the strip-poker game on the third floor to back it up.

Nichole

If you examine existing records you will see that shortly before their disappearance, provisions such clothing and bedding were bought for the Little Princes.  Also, the Tower was not a prison at that time but a fortified palace.  You are aware that history was written by Henry VII and it could be bad for ones health to say anything bad about the king?  Same with his granddaughter.

Prior to Bosworth, the claims of Richards nephews to the throne had been dismissed in favour of Richard's superior claim as the brother of the late Edward IV.  It seems the LPs were shown to be bastards due to Edward's secret marriage before his official one to Elizabeth Woodville.  Edward was a bigamist While inferior to Richard's claim, the LPs had a far superior claim to the throne than that of Henry Tudor.  Richard had no reason to kill his nephews, Henry had very good reason to do so.

BTW, the bodies of the Little Princes have never been found.

Did you read Richard or Buckingham as the instigator of the murders?

You really should pay better attention, my dear. Buckingham did have reasons to rid himself of the "LPs" and to undermine Richard. Go read P.M. Kendall for some interesting ideas. Lotsa bodies never get found and Perkin Warbeck's was.

Nichole

Liz, perhaps this is the time to question what you claim no one has ever questioned before. Sounds like you've got down a great imitation of Henry Paulson.

Having a job in a bank, or in the Vatican, and holding forth about the arcana of either money or salvation isn't exactly the same thing as living in the muck and grime of financing a home and whether or not you get screwed and someone who's worth billions plays fast and loose with "the invisible hand" and then wants a handout because "I'm too big to fail."

T-Rex might have thought the same thing as they died. "O, the world will end without me!" How extraordinarily silly. The world will somehow manage, just as it did before there was an American General or a Goldman Sachs.

As for Lancastrians and Yorkists, unless one is a supporter of Leeds United or Blackburn Rovers I don't think the distinction has held any significance for over 500 years.

Nichole

You're right, Nichole.  The world will certainly survive if nothing were done and things would work themselves out eventually.  It will likely take a number of years and there will be a great deal of pain and suffering for all people.  Liquidity will be bone dry as there are no institutions for anyone to borrow from.  No home loans, no credit cards, no loans for business - nada.  As I've said, I don't like the bail out but the alternative is worse.  Also, the current package is for more palatable than the original one.

The old bailout was a bad idea, the revised one still sucked.  I thought the deal was that we let these people make huge amounts of money based on their taking the 'risk' - oh well, risk has two sides.

I cede my snarkiness crown to ...Nichole!   

Posted on: 29 September 2008, 13:24:49

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Hey Tekla and Nichole!


Looks like we're gonna try it your way!

New York Times


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Oh, it was never your crown by any rightful succession, it was just something you seized by fiat.  (See, I can use the world in a sentence too.)

Its not my way, I would have prohibited them from doing all this in the first place.  But what it does mean is that we are not going to do it the Bush way, which was to give GW $700 Billion (with a B, BILLION) to pass out willie-nillie to all his pals before he leaves office.

Of course, Phil Gramm is the guy who brought all this on, as McCain voted for it, and now, we have to bail out their pals.  Sorry.  That idea sucked.  Bring me one that might work.  And bring me one that has as a part of it, criminal trials for those who made these decisions, and some proof that it might work.

Quote from: Claire de Lune on September 29, 2008, 01:33:13 PM
You're right, Nichole.  The world will certainly survive if nothing were done and things would work themselves out eventually.  It will likely take a number of years and there will be a great deal of pain and suffering for all people.  Liquidity will be bone dry as there are no institutions for anyone to borrow from.  No home loans, no credit cards, no loans for business - nada.  As I've said, I don't like the bail out but the alternative is worse.  Also, the current package is for more palatable than the original one.

Ya know, this scenario is not the only one. Other economists and "bankers" have actually made different suppositions that have it that the collapse of the casino-interests on Wall Street may well actually boost the abilities of non-giganormous banking institutions and the credit-liquidity is a matter of banks not wanting to release money now to other banks as a means of blackmailing the government into doing what they want the government to do which is to provide the players with a no-strings attached bailout.

That you two accept the direction of "czar" Paulson and his Goldman Sachs cronies, doesn't mean that "worst case" as you see it is inevitable.

You can cede whatsoever you wish, Claire, but I've hardly made the following comment to either of you, nor appealed to my own irresistable knowledge as did this:

Quote from: Lisbeth on September 29, 2008, 10:37:56 AM

Quote from: Nichole on September 26, 2008, 09:22:19 PM
Actually, for the both of you who may know banking, at whatever level, but not history or, apparently economics: feudalism was about as far from the banking interests in Genoa, Augsburg, Florence, Siena, and Venice as Wall Street is from Chihuahua.

Those people invented your precious system that's too big to fail, too important to have anything but it's own way. And then taught the English about how to create a Bank of England and, thus, your former lives. Illiterate, unsophisticated and rude they were not.

And people in the cities were no more "part of the land" than you are in SF.

Good grief! Get knowledgable before you make some blanket statement based on a rumor you heard in 9th grade, please.

Nichole

Oh, Puuulease, Nichole!!! You're blowing it out your ass.  I've never heard anyone on Susans question my knowledge of history before.  I know all about the Fuggers and their mideaval banking system.  What do you know about securities exchange?

Quote from: Claire de Lune on September 27, 2008, 11:13:11 AM
I have a BA in economics, Nichole.  And I'm a student of history.  Was in school, continue study for entertainment and knowledge.  Ask me about the War of the Roses.

Ask me about the War of the Roses and I'll you about my family's personal part in it.

which of course was conveniently deleted to leave things looking as if I just unleashed on one of you.

Please.

Nichole

Posted on: September 29, 2008, 04:32:49 PM

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The fact that "corrections" occur seems to always be the way of the world when it's me or you whose accounts are getting hit by the "corrections." The market fell because people started selling the stocks of the banks that had been holding the treasury to ransom to bailout their poor judgements and losing bets.

And, so people would have to pause and wonder if they fell due to the non-passage. This tactic is as transparent as Saran-Wrap, Claire, and we all know it.

Heck, if I had all my money on the bet that the bailout was gonna go forward with the "changes" that have been reported I'd be pulling money outta the bank stocks as well, at least the major players who are holding all those mythic "securities." I'm thinking the "security" of a gryphon farm would be much more secure than the packaging of debt that cannot be paid-off as a "security."

Heck, maybe we're seeing some real valuation occurring in the market.

Nichole

If nothing else, we are seeing the failure of McCain's style of leadership.  Not that Obama comes off much better.

Quote from: tekla on September 29, 2008, 03:44:15 PM
If nothing else, we are seeing the failure of   Not that Obama comes off much better.

pfff we have been seeing   the failure  McCain's style of leadership. in bush for the last 8 yr,s . and Obama just getting going. so he cant be

that bad at all yet . 

Okay Nichole, I hope you're satisfied!  The earth stopped spinning aand the sky has fallen!  Thanks a lot you nattering nabob of negativism!

Yes, I noticed all these fluffy clouds and shards of sky lying around and wafting around my yard yesterday and today, Claire! They were truly lovely and fun.

Who knew the world wouldn't end when the sky fell?!! Aren't you happy at how beautiful it all is!



Nikki