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The Rich Are Staging a Coup Right Now

Started by NicholeW., September 30, 2008, 09:15:40 AM

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NicholeW.

The Rich Are Staging a Coup Right Now
Posted by Michael Moore, MichaelMoore.com at 8:36 AM on September 29, 2008.

Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this.

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/100749/

Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.

Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is

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Kaitlyn

I've got so little respect for Michael Moore that you'd need an electron microscope to see it.  He's an ignorant buffoon who seems enamored of totalitarian socialism, without being willing to live under it himself.  His typical "Blame Wall Street/capitalism/profit motive/greed" BS is really grating, and he's willfully ignorant of economics.

What is this "they" he keeps referring to as robbing us?  Wall Street?  CEOs?  Last I checked, it was the government that taxed and inflated away my wealth, not Wall Street.  If the government is giving it away to cronies, why are Americans permitting that?  Why are they still paying their taxes?  Why aren't there large-scale protests, even revolution?

How did our government get the power to redistribute our wealth to the rich?  Could it be because Americans actually believe in redistribution of wealth in general, and voted for politicians that supported it?  Oh, boo-hoo-hoo that it's now working against them all.  You'd think they'd never heard of regulatory capture before.

How is the theft being accomplished by a "democratic" government when the American people oppose it?  The dirty secret is that people might oppose the bailout, but not the principles and institutions that are responsible for it.  They're not willing to put their money where their mouths are.  Americans worship the state as a god, and go along with whatever it commands.  Paulson could be asking for a $5 trillion bailout, and Americans wouldn't do anything more than whine and go along, just like they're doing now.  Bush could launch fifty more wars in the next month, and Americans would do nothing but whine, pay for them, and go overseas to die.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."
— Plutarch
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NicholeW.

Ah, the anarchist approach. A plague on everyone's house.

But the thing about anarchy is simply this, it's good for a certain type of mind, one that is generally completely unbridled and anti-social in many ways. Plaguing everyone's house is simply a good way to make certain that no one gets to live with any sort of reasonable guess that they can enjoy a day.

Too busy protecting ourselves from plagues.

I don't think anyone, Michael Moore included, believes he's some answer to the problems of American society and the bone-ignorance that was bred into most of us in the generations our families spent living at the bottom of every other nation's totem-pole.

Well, except for the Amerinds, but the peasants from abroad pretty much wiped out most of the Amerind people who had developed smarts and a tradition of living here in context. Isn't it ever the way? One moron with a lot of firepower can destroy the irreplaceable in seconds. 10,000 years of working and learning crash in historical seconds with what to replace it other than a firm desire to live in the lowest corner of Brixton? *sigh*

So, outside of tossing a few grenades, ya got any ideas, Nephie?

Nichole
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tekla

I love Michael Moore.  You've got to love someone who was fired from Mother Jones magazine for being too far to the left. 

We are so used to everyone pulling punches, lying, putting the best face on things, attempting so hard to be something they are not, that someone like Moore, who is in real life exactly 100% like is in his films and TV shows is often something we have a hard time with.  There is no 'other' or 'different' or 'secret' Michael Moore.  What you see is what you get.  I've meet him several time, including trips to and from the airport, and going out to dinner with him twice, and he is exactly as he comes off being. 

So, when he comes off as a rather rude, elitist, slob - well, that's our Mike.  He is rather rude, with little time to be pleasing or personable when so much is at stake.  He is an elitist, in the same sense that I am, which is to say that people who worked hard to get a good education don't have to put up with opinions that come from little thought and even less research.  And, he is a slob in the best use of the word. He dresses as he does, not to be PC, or 'fashionable' or 'appropriate' he literally does not give a flying F*** about what you think about his wardrobe. 

What the 'they' is, is exactly Wall Street and its constant demand that capitalism requires us to give away our best jobs to the third world so that economic standards and environmental issues need never be addressed.  Profits UP, people DOWN. 

I do not think that we as a nation believe in any sort of redistribution of wealth, but we do adhere to a much older notion, that of Commonwealth (matter of fact a couple of our states are even named that) - that all wealth is not private, but for the most part, public.

I hardly worship the state as god, hell, I don't even worship god as god.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Kaitlyn

You mean, I should be constructive?

I'm not sure, that sounds kind of pro-establishment...

Seriously though - I think they should nix any and all bailout plans, now and in the future.  "Too big to fail" is a scam perpetrated by ignorant and/or unscrupulous politicians who haven't a free-market bone in their body.  People will get hurt, yes - but that's a given at this point.  Any attempt to bail out ANYTHING is just going to prolong and worsen the problem.

Second, the Federal Reserve Bank needs to be dismantled - IMMEDIATELY.  It's the most pressing long-term danger to the American public.  No more rampant credit expansion.  No more debasement of the currency.  No more money spigot to fund endless wars and corporate welfare.  Let the state get all its money openly, through taxes.

Third, abolish income tax withholding.  Let the American public see, all at once, just how big their tax burden is.  With the abolition of the Fed, all the money previously taken by stealth through the printing press will show up in big, bold numbers come tax time.  Let's get people REALLY upset.  (plus, people will need to learn how to save again).
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."
— Plutarch
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NicholeW.

No, I didn't mean you needed to be constructive at all. I try not to insist that people do things they don't wish to do, but I do suggest that they do sometimes.

Central Banks control the supply of money and pick a value for it. Been going on for ages now, and the only thing that actually gives that money value is the willingness of people to use the exchange as a representation of value they'll accept.

Otherwise we'd just have to use gold & silver coins that were valued at the amount they actually weighed and the value of the metal itself. Or we could use gems. OTH, you can, and some people have and do, use cowrie-shells.

The problem, my dear, doesn't seem to be the institutions as much as it is who and what the institution determines it's most pressing need to back and bolster is. Central Banks have never been operating with the bedrock notion that they have to look out for the population, at least not all of it, just the class from whom the central bankers derive, or the class they've become a part of. They do that quite well in USA.

The reason Bernanke/Paulson and others cannot see that "the problem" as anything other than taking bad debt, or as Liz said yesterday "securities" off the hands of Morgan, Citi and BankAm is that like fish they cannot imagine breathing anything except the medium in which they live.

They, thus, back the "too big to fail" proposition because they know they are "too big to fail." And the credit crunch WILL worsen because the people who make the credit aren't going to release it until they get what they want: the removal of bad investments at no cost to them.

The government, any government, is going to tax as a way of making plain to itself and others (foreign and domestic) that it does in fact own the allegiance (liked or not, by fear, terror, or adoration) of the governed. The government is going to perceive that its individual members, servants, lackeys, what-have-you also need to have the medium of exchange without having to go do work at a different location for someone else's tokens.

Is it all a pose? Why yes, always has been. But as long as people continue to give the pose their belief and at some degree their trust that will not change and in point of fact if they do change they will make another government that operates on the same pose.

You anarchists don't want the pose, but people are simply not going to find it reasonable to live in no society at all. We've been social so freaking long that we feel most un-at-home when we aren't socialized. Which is why anarchists tend to be young and angry. That's not a bad thing, just a thing that over time seems to disappear, unless one is Prince Kropotkin. Of course, when you're a prince you can afford to "be" an anarchist, as you know full-well you don't actually have to live as one and reap whatever harvest comes from x-odd million people doing their own thing at your expense.

Nichole 
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lisagurl

QuoteHow is the theft being accomplished by a "democratic" government when the American people oppose it?

Well we are not exactly democratic, more of a federal republic with social leanings. The fact that the Government can and does do things that are not popular for the supposed greater good.  But look at the proposition system in CA. If everything is voted on you just create a big mess. The voter is just not educated or unselfish enough to do what is best for all they tend to want what is most appealing to themselves.
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tekla

Are you in California?  Most of the people I know here LOVE that system, one of the great and outstanding progressive reforms.  It brought us the Coastal Law, the opt out of the war on drugs medical marijuana law, and Prop 13, an awesome law that increased stability and improved neighborhoods too.  And most of the people I know, know more about the propositions than about national law, if only because its a lot closer to home.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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lisagurl

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NicholeW.

Well, they surely don't pay in MS and whatcha got there?

Nikki
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tekla

Of course no one wants to pay, and for good reason too.  I read here about people using student loans to pay for SRS and HRT, and I do not give a damn about what people do, but when your doing it with my money, that sucks.  I am happy to pay some taxes for student loans, because I think education is important.  Paying it for personal improvement.  Screw that.

But any patriot knows, we owe something to the commonwealth. 

Its a fine line between the two.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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lisagurl

Quote from: Nichole on October 01, 2008, 04:18:27 PM
Well, they surely don't pay in MS and whatcha got there?

Nikki

A low population with plenty of nature and clean air. No traffic jams or airport problems. No deposit bottles ,no trash problems,, low insurance rates, no gangs, no graffiti, etc.
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tekla

no trash problems

You kidding me right?  Mississippi, the ground zero of po' white trash? 

Now, I've been to Mississippi many times.  I like it.  However.  It was Mississippi (and I apologize for this in advance, it's not my choice of language) that when I asked how to get to a cemetery where a famous blues guys was buried, the goober at the gas station told me, "Nothing but a bunch of damn ->-bleeped-<-s burred there, boy.

I felt like buying him a belt, but then again, I thought the technology might be beyond him.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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lisagurl

The good thing is there is plenty of room so you do not have to see your neighbor no fences needed. Besides where else can you get that kind of free entertainment and not have to apologize for it.
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Kaitlyn

Quote from: Nichole on October 01, 2008, 03:03:25 PM
You anarchists don't want the pose, but people are simply not going to find it reasonable to live in no society at all. We've been social so freaking long that we feel most un-at-home when we aren't socialized. Which is why anarchists tend to be young and angry. That's not a bad thing, just a thing that over time seems to disappear, unless one is Prince Kropotkin. Of course, when you're a prince you can afford to "be" an anarchist, as you know full-well you don't actually have to live as one and reap whatever harvest comes from x-odd million people doing their own thing at your expense.

Frankly, I'm just baffled by your assumption that I'm opposed to society.  I have NO idea where that's coming from.  I love society.  Some of my best friends are societies.  I'm opposed to statism, and the CONFLATION of the state and society.  To me, society is the aggregate of peaceful human interaction, while the state is an agent of theft, violence, and general anti-social inhumanity.  I don't accept the idea that a state is necessary, or even beneficial - although I could tolerate a libertarian-style "night watchman" state.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."
— Plutarch
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NicholeW.

Well, I suppose your answer gives me the reason why I would think that. "Society" is not simply about whay either you or I would or wouldn't accept, Nephie. It's about what a huge number of people would and wouldn't accept.

Otherwise your society is simply a lot of single entities walking about as they please, well, as long as they can make it stick. If they can't, then they'll walk about pleasing the guy who can make it stick.

Nichole
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Kaitlyn

Quote from: Nichole on October 01, 2008, 11:08:21 PM
Well, I suppose your answer gives me the reason why I would think that. "Society" is not simply about whay either you or I would or wouldn't accept, Nephie. It's about what a huge number of people would and wouldn't accept.

Otherwise your society is simply a lot of single entities walking about as they please, well, as long as they can make it stick. If they can't, then they'll walk about pleasing the guy who can make it stick.

Nichole

I'm not alone in calling violence and aggression "antisocial", and we've already got a system where the antisocial try to please the people who can "make it stick".  They even have professionals to do this for them.  Those professionals are called "lobbyists".  "Congressmen" and "regulators" are those who can make it stick - also "police" and "soldiers" for when the going gets tough.

Posted on: October 02, 2008, 12:18:41 am
People talk - all the time - about "social responsibility", "debts to society", and "antisocial behavior".  These ideas presume that there are some activities that run against the grain of social acceptability.  Different people have different takes on this, but pointing guns at people is usually seen as antisocial.  Taking people's stuff is antisocial.  Throwing rocks through windows is antisocial.  Do you disagree with any of this?

The state, by its very nature, is complicit in crimes of this nature, and many others.  We give it a free pass out of ignorance and blind tradition, not wisdom or justice.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."
— Plutarch
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NicholeW.

Absolutely you're not, I stand with you on that.

And, absolutely we do. And even with the abuse, most people prefer that rather than to have Bubba, Guido and Fat-Boy doing the "enforcement."

Nikki



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Kaitlyn

Quote from: Nichole on October 01, 2008, 11:26:33 PM
Absolutely you're not, I stand with you on that.

And, absolutely we do. And even with the abuse, most people prefer that rather than to have Bubba, Guido and Fat-Boy doing the "enforcement."

The Mafia and other criminal gangs are just small governments, existing in competition with the larger government whose  territory they dwell within.  Guerrilla states.  Some people even prefer that brand of service to what they get from the "official" government.

Being "legitimate" doesn't make something right.  People in this country will put up with actions by their "legitimate" government that would be horrific crimes if perpetrated by private citizens.  If the American governmental system rests on the idea of powers delegated from the people themselves, then why do we accept its claim to powers that none of us - individually or collectively - can exercise?  Why do we allow the counterfeiting?  The war?  The fraud, theft, and deception?  The denial of basic civil liberties?

I think it's because, deep down, Americans know the state is out of control.  They know that it doesn't represent them, and never did.  They know that they'll just be destroyed if they mount a serious challenge.  However, they just can't accept this, not truly.  The idea that the government is our servant is the most loudly-proclaimed and longest-running myth in our history, and it just hurts too much for people to admit that it's the other way around.  They're too emotionally invested in the idea.
"The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled."
— Plutarch
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NicholeW.

You think it's that.

I think it's a cultivated habit of mind that comes from watching tv allatime, playing video/computer games instead of living life and in thinking that education is something some teacher pours into your brain if you just sit there long enough and write something half-assed enough times, simply because most of us don't want to be bothered with anything more nuanced and layered than the 10-ply nachos at Taco Bell.

Nikki
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