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What are your thoughts about science and religion?

Started by Sherue, September 18, 2008, 01:59:57 AM

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tekla

Those who claim to know God should be so humble.

True that.  Also true, they almost never are.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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cindybc

Humility is a very misunderstood word. If one was to put the word humility beside the word humble, it may help one to see what this shunned and misunderstood word truly means. With humility one will find a means of forgiving oneself, as well as forgiving others.

Humility is not allowing oneself to lie in the mud and to be trampled by the world.  It is nothing of the sort.  Humility is what allows one to look at another's misfortune and not wonder how or why it happened. It *is* what allows us to render help without judgment.

It is the opposite of pride.  Pride is not to be confused with a healthy self-image.  With pride one looks down their nose at others who have less than they do.  It sees the poor, the broke, the broken, and those in need as a "them and me" situation.

Pride takes all of the credit for every little thing a person does.  Humility says that they were grateful for being a part of a team, or giving credit to the One Who Is All for successes as well as to the people who might have blazed the trail to one's personal success.

Humility knows that if one shines with any sort of light of achievement, it is a reflected light, not from the inside.

Humility has nothing to do with religion, it an inner thing to help you to find peace within.

Cindy
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glendagladwitch

Every time someone says something in earshot of me that reveals to me that they are religious, all I hear is, "You're going to Hell."
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RebeccaFog

we're all going to hell. Just ask the conductor of this train.
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cindybc

We all experience our own personal varying levels of hell as we go through life. It is a learning and growing cycle that refines us to the best us we can be as we learn form the school of life.

It is those who will not learn from their turbulent existence that will end up getting caught  up in the loop of their own karma. From how science sees it it is said that for every action you get an equal and opposite reaction. For Karma it is what ever one puts out to universe will be an exact in full return.

If we can manifest our own hell, why not our own heaven?

Hi  Rebis hon, I travel by bus.



Cindy
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RebeccaFog

They let you on the bus with all that stardust stuff?
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cindybc

Sure, didn't you know that the intergalactic Greyhound bus allows us to take our bags of magical fairy star dust with us to terraform dead worlds and also collect extracted teeth from under little children's pillows and replace them with a silver coin? Those bags are just as necessary as our magic wands, even if mine is slightly bent it still works. sweets, "hee, hee, hee." Sometimes I wonder if it's only you and Pica Pica that truly understand this chick with the sparklies and the bent magic wand.  ;D

Cindy 
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Carolyn

I tend to keep my hand in the middle of debates, but for once I just want to say something on this hand. Challenge everything, I am a woman of science, not religion, and though I do believe in some form of a higher power notifiable Karma I do however challenge the idea of it. I pursue to understand the very idea of freedom itself and thus understand myself more. However I do strong think that a god existing is highly unlikely I do not rule it out. If I would to ever meet this god/goddess I would want to know the meaning behind if anything my own existence.
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cindybc

Hi Carolyn Honey, Debate makes for some good cerebral gymnastics. Keeps the mold from growing at the terminals around neural synapses.  ;D

As for Karma I believe we all get back what we send out in equal proportion. if not sooner, then later, still that is the law of returns, what goes around comes around and that law appears to have worked quite well for as long as I can remember.

Like the saying goes, the moment you stop beating yourself on the head with that hammer the sooner the lumps will heal and go away. To do the same thing in the same way twice and to expect different results is insanity, "seeeee!" "hee, hee, hee." Yea I'm a friend of Bill's. I use to like the grass to as well at one time, and not the type to lay on in the front yard either. "Sheeeeesh!" I would be ashamed to call myself an old hippie if that weren't the case. Although that don't mean all Hippies smoked the grass, "seeeee!" ;D

Truly though, I'm only tuggin on your sock my friend. From the experience of working with different folks through the years as a social worker I can only sum this post up by saying that there are as many different ways of believing in some type of higher power and those who serve it as there are people, so I ain't about to place judgment on any one particular belief systems or individual beliefs. I believe I am going to find the need to light a whole lot more candles during what's left of my life before I can even "think!" of putting those judges robes on.

May God Bless

Cindy
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Margaret Ann

Quote from: cindybc on October 15, 2008, 03:00:30 AM

As for Karma I believe we all get back what we send out in equal proportion. if not sooner, then later, still that is the law of returns, what goes around comes around and that law appears to have worked quite well for as long as I can remember.


OK, how did that law work out for the thousands of babies, infants and children who died horrible deaths in that tsunami in Indonesia? Or, how about anyone who lived a basically decent life (most folks I assume) and who spends weeks or months in pain dieing of cancer that slowly destroys their organs while they watch it happening from their drugged out stupor? Did they all do something really bad in life and only the God of karma truly knows what they did and how to mete out justice?

I'm sorry. I don't mean to offend, but the whole karma thing just seems like a version of "I really want there to be a higher power in the universe so this will all make sense and seem fair, so maybe I'll go with the Karma thing if I don't think too much about how illogical it really is".
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buttercup

Quote from: Margaret Ann on October 15, 2008, 03:36:33 AM
Quote from: cindybc on October 15, 2008, 03:00:30 AM

As for Karma I believe we all get back what we send out in equal proportion. if not sooner, then later, still that is the law of returns, what goes around comes around and that law appears to have worked quite well for as long as I can remember.


OK, how did that law work out for the thousands of babies, infants and children who died horrible deaths in that tsunami in Indonesia? Or, how about anyone who lived a basically decent life (most folks I assume) and who spends weeks or months in pain dieing of cancer that slowly destroys their organs while they watch it happening from their drugged out stupor? Did they all do something really bad in life and only the God of karma truly knows what they did and how to mete out justice?

I'm sorry. I don't mean to offend, but the whole karma thing just seems like a version of "I really want there to be a higher power in the universe so this will all make sense and seem fair, so maybe I'll go with the Karma thing if I don't think too much about how illogical it really is".

I agree with you Margaret.  I think people use this term to prevent themselves and those they know from doing bad to others because it might come back to them.  In that way, I suppose it is a good thing.  But logically speaking, it doesn't make sense.  I've known some pretty awful people, and they've never got anything back for their rotten behaviour towards others.  There are children born who live short miserable lives, what have they done to deserve that kind of life?  Yes, when we scrutinize what karma really means and superstitions in general, they don't hold water.
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cindybc

#111
Hi  Margaret, honey I didn't mean to upset anyone, and I did say that there are about as many different beliefs as there are people believing them, and I did say I wouldn't want to be the judge of whose right or wrong in any given questionable situation. The only point I was inferring to was, who is the one to judge whose right or wrong.

As for the Karma there is equal good as there is bad that comes back from karma, again depending on which one it one chooses, you are the master of your own choices/destiny. Unless this certain individual  gets run over by a bus crossing the street. It could still be said that this individual made that choice to cross the street at the wrong time thus this individuals chips were simply called in. Geeee I mean which came first here, the egg or the chicken? Sooner or later there comes a time for everyone to punch out their clocks, I don't know the reason nor do I have the answer for that anymore then anyone else on the surface of this planet does, end of discussion.

Maybe if one could travel back in time to the Garden of Eden and ask Adam and Eve before they got their ever lovin butts kicked out the Garden. 

As for all those babies, mommies, daddies, and what ever other innocent life forms like, animals, you know, the ones with 4 legs, wings and fins, and the plant life.  Some make it to safety sensing what's coming ahead of time but not all of the critters do, like what about domestic animals? It's the same statistics in wars as well. I wonder if anyone else ever given thought about this other innocent life? Who is to know huh, there are probably others aware of this, but I guess they don't talk about it because their afraid they'll get ridiculed because they might think it to trivial.

And again who has the authority to sit in judgment as to who and what is to be obliterated and killed in such disasters? Man made disasters, like wars, are just irresponsible, greedy, power hungry, selfish, tin god atitudes who care less about the lesser life forms animals, plants, peasants, beggars, slaves, and any of the lower cast, all inclusive, use them, then blow them up pee brain mentalety when their usefulness has expired. **stupidity** "BIG TIME!"

Like earthquakes we are told are caused by the earths crust, tectonic plates, moving one under the other. Volcanoes are caused by the built up pressure of the earth magma below the crust which gets to great and wells up through old fissures in a dormant volcano. Hurricanes happen because of convection currents of warm air created from the surface of the warm waters of the ocean creating an updraft to displace the cooler upper air which creates a spiraling mass of powerful air currents. Thunderstorms, floods, tornadoes are all natural occurrences that can be predicted to a certain degree, but can also get totally out of control within just minutes of their birth.

Natural disaters have nothing to do with karma, just unpredictable natural occurrences. Now I am a we bit shaky and truly I get some what skittish and nervous around the subject of God and why would this God allow such things to happen. But then again the black, and white, negative and positive, the dualities of nature there is for every action in all of the elements in the universe there is an equal and opposite reaction, but then there is also an equal synchronous reaction to every action.

A star system in a galaxy goes nova and that galaxy is turned into a huge cloud of nebula gas. In that nebula gas you will find new stars being formed within this dense cloud, and soon the cloud dissipates, revealing a newly born galaxy shining brightly in the universe once again. Things die and things are reborn, it appears to be as close to a perfect order of recycling as there can possibly be in this observable universe. Why not people as well, or any other living thing containing the spark of life, the soul if we may. The soul is eternal, how many life time memories can there be stored in a soul?

Anyway, just some ideas which again makes about as much sense as how ever many other people that dream them up.  As good a theory as any until someone comes up with another one.

Cindy   

Posted on: October 15, 2008, 05:33:50 am
Who puts those children through that kind of misery hon? I been a social worker for a good many years and I have seen both children and grown up people living on the streets in just awful of a condition as any 3rd world country. Have you slept under make shift lean to made out of blankets? Have you had to use card board boxes for a padding to sleep on? Have you seen people only in their mid twenties to mid thirties with half their teeth missing because of crystal meths.

On the subject of drugs, who is it that places the god forsaken crap in their hands? Who then in turn will sell themselves to keep up the habit. Have you ever worked with mental health recipients? Have you ever worked with recovering alcoholics and addicts? Have you yourself lives on the street? During my stay on the streets, I sat right along side my sisters and brothers and I drank rot gut, cheep liquor and nearly died if it hadn't been for some kind folks helping me. Have you ever been raped? I have. Have you ever lived on an Indian reservation? For five years I was a nanny for nearly every kid on the res. I also had 11 children in my care through the years before and after. You wanna know about children hon? you are very welcome to visit granny Cindy here. 

May God Bless.

Cindy
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glendagladwitch

As for Karma and dead babies or bad people who prosper, I think the reasoning is that Karma carries over from one life to the next.  Someone told me the Tao belief is that you consciously choose each life, knowing the whole path ahead of time, in order to learn some kind of lesson that will bring you one step closer to enlightenment.  Sort of like downloading a set of operating system files onto your cosmic computer to get your Godhood interface booted up.  Sounds to me like a bunch of wishful thinking.
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lisagurl

QuoteSounds to me like a bunch of wishful thinking.

To make it a mathematical law is wishful thinking. However spreading good will does sometimes grease the slides and help bring returns. As in any business the customer is always right. Treat people with respect and many times they return the favor. This is not a law just common sense. It rarely is equal, but does put a person at ease and makes living with one's self more enjoyable.
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Margaret Ann

#114
Quote from: lisagurl on October 15, 2008, 10:40:16 AM
QuoteSounds to me like a bunch of wishful thinking.

To make it a mathematical law is wishful thinking. However spreading good will does sometimes grease the slides and help bring returns. As in any business the customer is always right. Treat people with respect and many times they return the favor. This is not a law just common sense. It rarely is equal, but does put a person at ease and makes living with one's self more enjoyable.

OK Lisagirl and Glenda. That all makes sense to me. I also believe that it is better to respect others and treat them kindly - and generally others do respond in kind. But not always. In fact, good people can experience terrible tragedy, cruelty and betrayal in their life through no fault of their own. Saying that the books get balanced in the next life is like saying nothing at all - first because there is no evidence for an afterlife. But here's the kicker. According to the theory of Karma anything that happens to anyone, no matter how terrible is justified - can be described as a payback for some previous life's actions. In otherwords, I can be as cruel to anyone as I wish and I can just say they deserve it because of something they did in their previous life.

As far as I can see, life is generally better and happier when I treat others with kindness and that's why I do it. But, for much of life's twists and turns, the only rules that apply are:

a) ->-bleeped-<- happens

b) when you least expect it, expect it

Cheers
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cindybc

Leaving Karma out of it because it appears that this word leaves a sour taste in peoples mouths let us just say as I have said before that much of, well my life anyway the end result was brought about by the decisions I mad today, good, bad." All the things I experienced it was me and no one else who made all the wrong decisions in order to get there. It was my own nieve and unexperienced dumb decisions that got me where I went. I am thank full that I was smart enough to make some right decisions to get my ever lovin butt out of those situations.

Yes unfortunately, that is life and it is entirely possible that it could happen that now that I have found some peace and happiness in my life, in accepting who I am, and having made the decision to work with the very people who I was once a part of their comunity. I must say life is good and I deserve it. But it don't mean that the possibilety I may not step out the door and get run over by that city bus. How ironic life is huh? After life? No, there is no 100% proof that there is another existence after we leave here, but I would sooner like to think that there is, and I will leave it at that.

Y'all have a wonderful day.

Cindy
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Margaret Ann

Quote from: cindybc on October 15, 2008, 12:23:18 PM
Leaving Karma out of it because it appears that this word leaves a sour taste in peoples mouths let us just say as I have said before that much of, well my life anyway the end result was brought about by the decisions I mad today, good, bad." All the things I experienced it was me and no one else who made all the wrong decisions in order to get there. It was my own nieve and unexperienced dumb decisions that got me where I went. I am thank full that I was smart enough to make some right decisions to get my ever lovin butt out of those situations.

Yes unfortunately, that is life and it is entirely possible that it could happen that now that I have found some peace and happiness in my life, in accepting who I am, and having made the decision to work with the very people who I was once a part of their comunity. I must say life is good and I deserve it. But it don't mean that the possibilety I may not step out the door and get run over by that city bus. How ironic life is huh? After life? No, there is no 100% proof that there is another existence after we leave here, but I would sooner like to think that there is, and I will leave it at that.

Y'all have a wonderful day.

Cindy
Cindy, you are obviously a good and kind person. Just from reading a few of your comments I find I admire you on many levels. Just because we see "Karma" differently doesn't make you any less a good person in my opinion.  I see Karma more as an interesting topic for discussion than as something I have a strong need to refute. It's more like astrology to me. There are some seriously destructive ideas out there. I don't think "Karma" is one of them - at least as it is interpreted by most westerners.

Cheers, Margi
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Introvert123

Okay, since I'm not much into the huge depths of philosophy vs. religion, I've got to put my two bits on the table and move on.

1) To me, science is man's argument with himself.  Science is a man-made study because (dare I throw religion into this...) man, since the early days, has tried to be all powerful.  And science, given the evidence over the past two centuries, has become man's closest thing to being like God, in the philisophical sense.

2) That being said, I've found it quite disturbing that a majority of the world's greatest philosophers, were atheists.  Again, I'm not poking around with religion, but it's still something I find interesting.

Okay, y'all, I'm done. 
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glendagladwitch

Quote from: Margaret Ann on October 15, 2008, 11:54:11 AM
Quote from: lisagurl on October 15, 2008, 10:40:16 AM
QuoteSounds to me like a bunch of wishful thinking.

To make it a mathematical law is wishful thinking. However spreading good will does sometimes grease the slides and help bring returns. As in any business the customer is always right. Treat people with respect and many times they return the favor. This is not a law just common sense. It rarely is equal, but does put a person at ease and makes living with one's self more enjoyable.

OK Lisagirl and Glenda. That all makes sense to me. I also believe that it is better to respect others and treat them kindly - and generally others do respond in kind. But not always. In fact, good people can experience terrible tragedy, cruelty and betrayal in their life through no fault of their own. Saying that the books get balanced in the next life is like saying nothing at all - first because there is no evidence for an afterlife. But here's the kicker. According to the theory of Karma anything that happens to anyone, no matter how terrible is justified - can be described as a payback for some previous life's actions. In otherwords, I can be as cruel to anyone as I wish and I can just say they deserve it because of something they did in their previous life.

As far as I can see, life is generally better and happier when I treat others with kindness and that's why I do it. But, for much of life's twists and turns, the only rules that apply are:

a) ->-bleeped-<- happens

b) when you least expect it, expect it

Cheers

Karma is more like trying to expunge bad debt.  If you go around doing bad to others on the theory they deserve it, then you are building up bad karma that you will have to expunge in the next life.  But you argument does apply to Tao, I think.  With Tao, a violent criminal rapist can reason they needed to be that to get to the next level, and their victims needed to be victims for teir own good, so it is all ok.  That's pretty sick.
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cindybc

Hi Margaret Ann. Cindy extends her two hands before her side by side, bows slightly eyes closed  as a polite gesture and says softly, "tank you."   ;D Yea I didn't come here to make any enemies, to burdensome and stressful on my poor aging noives. Anyway, sometime I may take the time to go into detail as to how I see karma or the law of returns as it might be called by some.

Carma or the law of returns  are not intelligent acts born from an outside force, we create it ourselves. Also funny how people will jump to conclusion, that first of, that these occurences have to be of a negative nature. But one can just as easily create a positive end result for themselves just as easily and equally as a negative result manifested by their own doings. So basically one can create their own hell  or their own heaven right here on Earth, in this life time. But then this is my own observation from personal experiences in my past and not necessarily anyone else's. I will leave this subject lie where it is, as is.

As for religion and science, what if we were to somehow coalesce the many different fields of science, religions, spirituality, quantum physics and metaphysics  at some point in the future, like joining all of the energy points of the nature of all things in this reality as we know it and along with all in the universe, like a very large spiral galaxy. I mean, like "wow!!!"  What would we have? Going past the point of all knowledge presently recorded in all the books in all the libraries in the world what would we discover? Awakening into complete awareness of all life sources as one.

But the problem is we can't bridge that gap without first building a bridge, The psychic conjunction of all minds.

I pray I didn't loose you hon, I appear to do that from time to time. I get a mite caried away. I pray I didn't loose anyone else on this thread either as far that goes. If anyone wants to ask any questions, "please!" feel free to do so.

Cindy

 
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