Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 04:33:35 PM
Yes, theists are delusional. 

I'd appreciate it if you could state your beliefs without claims like this.

Quote from: Nero on September 15, 2008, 05:24:50 PM

Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 04:33:35 PM
Yes, theists are delusional. 

I'd appreciate it if you could state your beliefs without claims like this.

I have to agree with Nero. I don't believe that I'm delusional because I'm religious.

Someone asked a question.  I answered it honestly and directly, and then explained how I'm not making an ethical judgment - just a factual one.  I'm not calling anyone names here.

I can't speak for Nephie, but I personally have a hard time believing in an invisible man in the sky who has a hard-on of hate for humanity because two people in prison the garden of eden ate magic fruit from the advise of a talking snake.

Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 05:39:57 PM
Someone asked a question.  I answered it honestly and directly, and then explained how I'm not making an ethical judgment - just a factual one.  I'm not calling anyone names here.

But I still don't understand the "factual judgement." Where is the factual evidence proving that theists are delusional? Where is the factual evidence that proves deities do not exist?

Posted on: September 15, 2008, 03:42:18 PM

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Quote from: Flan Princess on September 15, 2008, 05:41:19 PM
I can't speak for Nephie, but I personally have a hard time believing in an invisible man in the sky who has a hard-on of hate for humanity because two people in prison the garden of eden ate magic fruit from the advise of a talking snake.

There is far more to religion than what you describe. For instance, what you describe is only part of of the Abrahamic scriptures. And, not all Abrahamists (Jews, Christians, Muslims) believe that the scriptures are litterally true. In fact, much of what my wife studied in seminary was that they are NOT historical accounts at all and are NOT to be taken as such.

I'm a Pagan, a polytheist. Do I believe that the rituals I attend or perform keep the Wheel of the Year moving? No, of course not. Are there those who do? Yes. Does that mean all Pagans believe this way? No. Likewise with your comments regarding the book of Genesis. Even the official teaching of the Catholic Church (the Church I grew up in) was that Genesis was legend, not fact.

If hate was the basis of Christian religion, the pastor of my family's church would not be an out-of-the-closet lesbian.

The condensed version: "existence" requires properties, qualities - a definite state.  Limits.  That's not compatible with most conceptions of God.  Further, to say that something "exists", you first should have a coherent idea of the thing you're talking about - otherwise, you're not saying anything at all, not explaining anything.  In the case of God in specific, or the supernatural in general, those things are by definition forever outside human understanding, and talking about their existence makes no sense.  When people say that God exists, that's like saying Qxulolol exists, or Gamsufras, or any other random sound.  It's got no cognitive content.

There's more to it that this, of course, but Smith's book explains it a lot better than I can.

Also, I do understand that most people don't interpret the Bible literally.

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on September 15, 2008, 05:47:29 PM
There is far more to religion than what you describe. For instance, what you describe is only part of of the Abrahamic scriptures. And, not all Abrahamists (Jews, Christians, Muslims) believe that the scriptures are litterally true. In fact, much of what my wife studied in seminary was that they are NOT historical accounts at all and are NOT to be taken as such.

I'm a Pagan, a polytheist. Do I believe that the rituals I attend or perform keep the Wheel of the Year moving? No, of course not. Are there those who do? Yes. Does that mean all Pagans believe this way? No. Likewise with your comments regarding the book of Genesis. Even the official teaching of the Catholic Church (the Church I grew up in) was that Genesis was legend, not fact.

If hate was the basis of Christian religion, the pastor of my family's church would not be an out-of-the-closet lesbian.

I know that, I was just making fun of a certain monotheist religion. My point is, religious texts taken literally are used most often to take away the rights of others, rather then teach lessons through stories.

Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 05:51:13 PM
The condensed version: "existence" requires properties, qualities - a definite state.  Limits.  That's not compatible with most conceptions of God.  Further, to say that something "exists", you first should have a coherent idea of the thing you're talking about - otherwise, you're not saying anything at all, not explaining anything.  In the case of God in specific, or the supernatural in general, those things are by definition forever outside human understanding, and talking about their existence makes no sense.  When people say that God exists, that's like saying Qxulolol exists, or Gamsufras, or any other random sound.  It's got no cognitive content.

But, it just a easily could be said that these things are beyond our current ability to detect.

Einstein created the cosmological constant to make the math work. For decades, people swore this constant was a fiction. Now, evidence for this constant is being discovered. Perhaps this is a bad analogy. But, it is a fiction that is turning into a reality.

I'm not talking about things that are beyond are ability to detect right now, but things that people claim are forever beyond our understanding.  That's a big part of many kinds of theism.

Also, the cosmological constant is a mathematical construct with a definite nature.  If people at one point thought it didn't exist, but it really does, then they were wrong.  Either way, people knew exactly what they were talking about (in a mathematical sense) when they debated it.

what else can you predict tink?

I have to invoke the spirits first.    Sometimes they materialize in front of you and tell you things.  Other times, they manifest through voices in your head, and rumors have it that in very rare occasions, they tend to communicate through electronic devices (like in the movie 'white noise').  Odd, isn't it! but true! Boo! I was very skeptical at first but now I am very certain.  The thing is that when you are a medium, you sense it in your being, in your skin, in the smell of the air!

Hey, but I think I am totally off topic  .  Anyway, what do I predict?  I predict a wedding, a European honeymoon, a bouquet which I wish I could catch personally  , romantic love, lots of it, a well-furnished house situated in one of the best neighborhoods, a new pet...a dog perhaps  .

Now for the bad, juicy things, I will have to charge you!  *giggles devilishly* Oh yes, I am totally off topic....sorry Katia!  LOL 

*hugs*

tink

Quote from: Flan Princess on September 15, 2008, 05:58:05 PM
I know that, I was just making fun of a certain monotheist religion. My point is, religious texts taken literally are used most often to take away the rights of others, rather then teach lessons through stories.

True, there are scriptural literallists will do these things. But, my point was that not all who adhere to the "certain monotheistic religion" are scriptural literallists. Your earlier post suggested to me that you believed the adherents of that religion were synonymous with literallists.

Posted on: September 16, 2008, 07:49:09 AM

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Quote from: Nephie on September 15, 2008, 06:17:16 PM
I'm not talking about things that are beyond are ability to detect right now, but things that people claim are forever beyond our understanding.  That's a big part of many kinds of theism.

Also, the cosmological constant is a mathematical construct with a definite nature.  If people at one point thought it didn't exist, but it really does, then they were wrong.  Either way, people knew exactly what they were talking about (in a mathematical sense) when they debated it.

I guess my point is that you seemed to be making a factual claim: Religion is delusion and thesists are delusional. When I encounter people making factual claims, I expect them to be able to provide factual proof. Had you said that you believe religion to be a delusion and that you believe theists to be delusional, I would have dropped it.

No one yet has been able to provide proof to me of the idea that theism = delusion. There have been compelling arguments, but not proof. I believe that there is proof of evolution. The evidence provided exceeds compelling arguments. So far, atheists have not provided proof (to me) that G'D does not exist or that the gods do not exist. If they could, I would submit to that reality without question. But, it has to be proof. Fundamentalist theists insist they have proof to support their claims. But to my mind, they do not.

If atheists could prove their claims, this would of course change the details of my religious beliefs. Instead of worshipping Pele and Perkunas, I would worship life and creation themselves. But if atheists did prove their claims, it would not change my religious practice. I would continue to keep the Sabbats, sit zazen, walk the labrynth, and treat people according to the Golden Rule and Great Commandment: with lovingkindness.

I don't understand... by "factual proof" do you mean empirical evidence?  That's just not possible.  There's no physical evidence in the universe that I could point out to absolutely disprove theism.  It's impossible in theory.  The only way to disprove the divine is by showing that it doesn't meet the logical prerequisites for existence.  It's the same with Santa Claus - theoretically impossible for me to disprove with observation and evidence.

Also, what's the difference between saying "I believe x is true" and "X is true"?  Does the second form imply some greater level of certainty, or a higher standard of evidence?  No, they're logically identical - "I believe" is just a way of saying "I accept as true".  You don't need to qualify your convictions with "I believe" - that's just weasel wordage.

I realize that lots of religious folks have a special use for "belief" to describe a proposition they accept as true on faith, but that's just question begging.  By what means does faith arrive at truth, and how can this be verified?

And don't forget... you asked the question whether theists are delusional.   

Quote from: Nephie on September 16, 2008, 11:09:12 AM
I don't understand... by "factual proof" do you mean empirical evidence?  That's just not possible.  There's no physical evidence in the universe that I could point out to absolutely disprove theism.  It's impossible in theory.  The only way to disprove the divine is by showing that it doesn't meet the logical prerequisites for existence.  It's the same with Santa Claus - theoretically impossible for me to disprove with observation and evidence.

Also, what's the difference between saying "I believe x is true" and "X is true"?  Does the second form imply some greater level of certainty, or a higher standard of evidence?  No, they're logically identical - "I believe" is just a way of saying "I accept as true".  You don't need to qualify your convictions with "I believe" - that's just weasel wordage.

I realize that lots of religious folks have a special use for "belief" to describe a proposition they accept as true on faith, but that's just question begging.  By what means does faith arrive at truth, and how can this be verified?

And don't forget... you asked the question whether theists are delusional.   

I'm guess I'm splitting hairs, but saying something IS true is not logically the same as believing it's true. Belief implies that one is acknowledging the possibility that one is wrong.

Yes, I did ask if theists were delusional. I acknowledge the possibility of this concept. I have not yet been convinced of the facticity of that statement, however.

If someone makes a statement of fact, she either believes her own statement, or she doesn't.  If she doesn't believe it, she's a liar.  If she does, then she acknowledges the possibility of being wrong (by your understanding of the meaning of "belief").

Therefore, I am either lying, or speaking honestly while understanding that I may be mistaken.  QED.

My motivation for being an atheist is that there is no such thing as God.

When I sit down with my family for Christmas dinner, I lead the prayer, and it's a good one. When my Christian friends are in need, I will kneel with them and pray, and I will often sit and read passages from the Bible with them to help bring them comfort.

My motivation for doing this is that it's the right thing to do.

I don't pray. I just talk to a person who isn't there. Once you can handle that paradox, you can begin to understand me.

God does not exist. There is no such thing as an immortal soul. The Bible was created by Man. This can't be changed. This isn't something that I'm saying as some kind of statement. It's not a philosophy or a worldview. It just happens to be a fact.

Posted on: October 17, 2008, 01:13:41 am

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Quote from: Leiandra on September 13, 2008, 07:03:04 PM
There's a saying... "there are no atheists in a foxhole",

And it's wrong. My life actually has been in danger a few times, and there's one important, little thing I observed about it: when you have realized that, if you don't do something, you're going to be smashed into a million pieces, you are NOT panicking or praying. Your hearing gets really muffled, time slows down a bit, and you kinda casually observe your body doing things all on its own.

And no, I don't pray during times of crisis. Believe me, girlfriend, I've been through a few of them. It just doesn't materialize. I don't believe in selfish love. I don't believe in selfish faith, either. One is just as repulsive as the other. I'm one of those old-fashioned jerks who still believe in things like honor, duty and sacrifice on behalf of others. You remember those? Call on them when you're in trouble. They'll never steer you wrong.

 Hi well I am not atheist but I on the other hand will not touch on the subject of religion, to volatile and contradictory. I am a student in search of the wisdom of the infinite potentialies or the universal forces.

QuoteI am saying that I believe that the "evidence" is there. Whether generic you sees it or not is something else. But, you have to understand I've had "voices" and such all of my life (quick quick someone call a shrink!), so the concept of "life as normal" isn't very "normal" to me. That said I personally find there to be evidence out there, but I do think most if not all of that can be "discarded" if one wishes. So it ends up, if you don't want to see it, there isn't evidence and (generic) you get to be justified, an if you do see evidence, well, (generic) you still gets to be justified. *shrug* It isn't my plan.
Kimberly

Kim, if you wish, please present the new topic if you would, What we have discussed on different occasions  is a subject that does not appear to die easy which indicates to me that there is interest still in Spirituality and Metaphysics on this board. Can't see why we can not give it another go and see what falls out of the hat. Thank you.

parapsychology to be fake, nor metaphysics?

Spirit the essence of all that is.

Spirit, it is the fabric of creation from all the way back from original thought, or the word spoken in the ether of creation as Albert Einstein has has once quoted Reality? now there is an perplexing conundrum, I think it's conception is as varied as each human being perceives it. Reality is about as multifarious as Truth, where we can only perceive only bits and pieces of it in the physical world and again those bits differ greatly from one individual to an other.

This reality is not really what it appears to be, in the sense of being solid or concrete, it is more made of is different densities in the grids of the Holographic universe, a very well designed hologram.

Check out my Blog, Cindy's Ramblings Blog

I call myself an atheist because I think it extremely unlikely that there is a god, and, if there turns out to be a god, I really really really really hate that f@cker.  Occasionally, I do pray, though, when I see some horrible injustice or the like and no god doing anything about it.  It usually goes something like this:  "God, if you're there, f@ck you, you arrogant prick!"

To each his/her own. I have my beliefs, but not necessarily the same as anyone else's. If it resonates with you, take it, if not, leave it. My beliefs are not in the God that the preachers preach about in their sermons. I cut out of going to the church of men as soon as I was old to make that decision. Before I could start building up such a hatred which would be more destructive to myself then to the church it's leaders, followers and those who called themselves the administrators of the law of the church, *Bible thumpers.*

My church as I have mentioned before is nature and it's denizens are my congregation. The elements of nature is the oneness that all living things on the mother is contained within. Ancient Wiccan/native American tradition. Fearing what is different for folks like us would be like fearing ourselves. I have respect for the unknown but I do not fear it. I fear more of the unknown elements in this reality which is even more unpredictable then the realms of the unknown. Evil dwells in the mind of men and is manifested from the mind of men. It is those who do not understand, the ignorant, these are the ones who are most vulnerable to the very elements of nature around them, the superstitious who fear their own shadow, so they try to beat or kill what they don't understand. Atheist?

Cindy

Quote from: glendagladwitch on October 17, 2008, 08:04:46 AM
Occasionally, I do pray, though, when I see some horrible injustice or the like and no god doing anything about it.

Meaning no offense, but what makes you think anything is obligated to actually do anything?

I am a very firm believer in credit where credit is due. As such, how are you so sure that those experiencing such injustice have not arranged for such so as to experience and grow from such experiences? I ask this odd question because I myself know(or believe if you prefer) that I have arranged for hurtful lives to experience.

If you wish another perspective, do (generic) you coddle a child every time they fall? Do you (again generic) rush to their side every time they cry? .... Such is an imperfect and flawed human explanation to attempt to shed understanding for a context that is vastly different from this. Simply, you are in no danger, and yes lives hurt. Grow from this.

My perspective, offered in love.