Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

Another typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

The above issues and others wreak havoc on women's self image everywhere.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other mostly female struggles. If you can think of them, I'd be grateful.

So do you feel your background has enabled you to escape these female mind traps or are you just as susceptible?

Not at all ........ 

hi nero...i think most of the things all women suffer with transwomen suffer with in spades.  remember, we "passed" as men, we weren't men.  body image?  gracious...what could be worse then having a male one!  <yuck...ugh...cough...spit>

sorry, guys....just one girl's opinion.

As far as self-image goes, no, it never helped in the slightest way. I've always been somewhere between horrified and totally uncaring about my appearance, even when I've done my best to look good as a guy. I never developed an eating disorder or quite the same kind of body-image problems that a lot of girls end up with; I developed other problems instead. And while I have always been able to get away with being more assertive in conversations, it's often left me feeling like a bitch.

But there's one area that growing up male has definitely helped with: mathematics. While I come from a family in which there was no question that boys and girls are equally capable of learning math, my sisters received a lot more negative feedback from society regarding their math education than I ever did. I never got the social pressure to avoid the subject that so many women get. In addition, being something of a social outcast (largely because of my gender issues) made it perfectly okay to be as good at math as I wanted to be, since I'd be considered a nerd or geek or whatever no matter what. So growing up male and being trans both contributed to an environment that encouraged me to learn math.

Quote from: Alyssa M. on October 16, 2008, 06:15:02 PM

But there's one area that growing up male has definitely helped with: mathematics. While I come from a family in which there was no question that boys and girls are equally capable of learning math, my sisters received a lot more negative feedback from society regarding their math education than I ever did. I never got the social pressure to avoid the subject that so many women get. In addition, being something of a social outcast (largely because of my gender issues) made it perfectly okay to be as good at math as I wanted to be, since I'd be considered a nerd or geek or whatever no matter what. So growing up male and being trans both contributed to an environment that encouraged me to learn math.

That's one I never thought about. Thanks for bringing it up.
It's so true that girls aren't really encouraged in that subject and it's generally a given (to society) that girls won't be as good as boys at math or be interested in it for that matter. Another example of gender learning stereotypes that have real effects on children.

I'd say just as susceptible, and regarding assertiveness I'd have to say in my case I was always  more comfortable being passive and I've gotten the impression that might be a common trait amongst transwomen.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PMDo you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police.

No. On the contrary. By nature I have been shy and retiring my whole life. If anything, my basic lack of assertiveness was aggravated by being forced into a male upbringing, where the expectation on me to be aggressive felt so wrong, all I did was hide myself and bury my assertiveness all the more. The only way I have been able to develop assertiveness, after coming out and transitioning, is through feminist empowerment, same as any other woman. Being my true female self is the basis for all my personal empowerment. So the only way this could work is when I approached it as a woman. In male mode, it had been a total abortion.

QuoteAnother typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

Nero-- are you kidding me? Please say you were only joking. Dude we are TS. Nothing aggravates my body image dysphoria worse than having the wrong f#&%ing body. This is something I still need work on. In various senses of the word.

Hello, sweetheart,

Have you lost your mind?

Body-image is one of the absolute deepest difficulties for most of us, Jane excepted, of course.

Assertiveness? Hypatia has pretty much covered that. One definitely isn't assertive when she's walking around in a body she feels totally uncomfortable with. In fact, transitioning brought me more actual assertiveness than I ever had as a male-bodies person.

I got left behind on the Math as well which wasn't the best place to be when it came to statistical analysis in Grad School. But I suppose the B+s and the calculators and crib-feeds from Net got me through okay. Fortunately, if one can write, crib and weave a good essay with the appropriate language one can sometimes bluff her way through the hard parts and then put them behind her. *sigh* An ability to think is essential.

In that regard transition has been very helpful. Much easier to contemplate these days without the constant mish-mash of jumbled memes running around my brain.

How has it been helpful? In my work it's been helpful in hearing what my male clients say and following that into their thinking. Most have been rather amazed that a woman can understand some of their deepest difficulties and sources of those.

Also has helped, I think, some in just regular dealings with guys -- like one can often read the sub-text. Yet, that I think is endemic among women, and has to be. Afterall, as I keep saying when your part of a subservient class you learn to read the dominants and the social structures much better than the dominants do, simply as a matter of survival.

Nikki

Just as susceptible Nero, I mean we're women so yeah we're bound to fall into the same traps sooner or later.  Our minds our female so being forced to grow up as male beforehand didn't give us any kind of "one up," in my case it actually hindered me because I couldn't express myself fully and I was very sullen and withdrawn before I transitioned.  I have to agree with Hypathia, the only way I began to assert myself was through feminist empowerment.

Jenn

i don't get a lot of that stuff about how a woman can be so "in" on male feelings as anyone who gets a look into my feelings knows i'm trans.  it's such a large part of my experience as a human being i find it difficult to keep out of anything beyond the mundane.

by being part of diversity panels and giving talks about the trans-experince i came up with a little short story i use in my introduction.  i call it, "the mantribe".  it's a response to the question i always get..."so, you were a man...and now you are a woman?" 

essentially the story goes like this:  "no, i was never a man.  however; i was captured by their tribe as an infant and held for many years.  i was raised among them, as one of them.  i became familiar with their traits and habits and did my best to conform.  they weren't mean to me, they all treated me as one of them, the fact that i was captured from another tribe as an infant wasn't of concern to them, i was raised with them and as one of them.  but i was never at home there.  i didn't know for a long time of my birth tribe but i always suspected there was something different about me then my peers.  i found very little enthusiasm in myself about things that made the other boys tick.  i always felt distant, not quite right.  then i learned of my birth tribe...etc...etc...

this little analagous story connects with a lot of people, and i think it's really pretty accurate in the outcome.  the things i know about being a man are superficial, superimposed on a female nature.  however hard one tries to make an apple out of an orange, you might be able to paint it up and make it look pretty good, but inside it still tastes like an orange.

Answer to Nero's question: No, I acted as girl when I was living as boy. I just lived in denial.

But I'd be willing to bet you got some knowledge and insight in all those years in the Marines, right, PJ?

N~

Quote from: pennyjane on October 17, 2008, 10:07:21 AM
i don't get a lot of that stuff about how a woman can be so "in" on male feelings as anyone who gets a look into my feelings knows i'm trans.  it's such a large part of my experience as a human being i find it difficult to keep out of anything beyond the mundane.

by being part of diversity panels and giving talks about the trans-experince i came up with a little short story i use in my introduction.  i call it, "the mantribe".  it's a response to the question i always get..."so, you were a man...and now you are a woman?" 

essentially the story goes like this:  "no, i was never a man.  however; i was captured by their tribe as an infant and held for many years.  i was raised among them, as one of them.  i became familiar with their traits and habits and did my best to conform.  they weren't mean to me, they all treated me as one of them, the fact that i was captured from another tribe as an infant wasn't of concern to them, i was raised with them and as one of them.  but i was never at home there.  i didn't know for a long time of my birth tribe but i always suspected there was something different about me then my peers.  i found very little enthusiasm in myself about things that made the other boys tick.  i always felt distant, not quite right.  then i learned of my birth tribe...etc...etc...

this little analagous story connects with a lot of people, and i think it's really pretty accurate in the outcome.  the things i know about being a man are superficial, superimposed on a female nature.  however hard one tries to make an apple out of an orange, you might be able to paint it up and make it look pretty good, but inside it still tastes like an orange.

That's a great way of putting things, Penny.  Thanks!


Jay

hi nicole.  knowledge, i'd say yes...insight?  i'm not really sure about that.  actually, i was never in the marines...i was in the army.  after my first tour of duty i wasn't really all that connected, i fell into a line of work that provided quite some distance from others.  as i said in "the big question" it was a great place to hide away and not be noticed.

it really is a great question nero asks...finding some answers, i suspect, might really be helpful in our everyday lives, so i think it's something good to ponder.

glad you get something from the story too, jay.

Quote from: Nero on October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM
Evening dolls.

I was wondering about something. Do you think your background (being raised as male, treated as male, etc) has helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

For instance, a lot of women struggle with assertiveness and to some degree this is enforced by the 'proper feminine decorum' police. Assertive or confrontational women are often labeled bitches. So some women shrink back from speaking their mind in order to appear more 'pleasing' to others.

I've had fairly severe anger management issues (even to the point where I've been known to physically attack someone who angered me enough, though I always pulled my punches so completely that I never hurt anyone, and often didn't even do more than act like I was going to hit them) since about age 7 (and I'll note that my gender dysphoric feelings started a little before that as well, though I didn't understand that's what they were). Aside from that, and to some extent because of that (I was often teased about my anger, especially since my earliest forms of release was just to "scream like a girl" rather than to hit, the hitting things came later after I was forced to supress the urge to scream as a release), I'm an incredibly shy and passive girl. I'll stand up for myself if it becomes necessary, and I'm more inclined to speak up if it's for someone else rather than myself, but I mostly just keep quiet and rather invisible (which is kinda funny since I stand a little over 6' tall). People easily forget I'm there, and I typically will do what I'm told unless I 1) don't comprehend what I've been told to do or 2) find the task/action/whatever so completely appalling that I cannot keep my mouth shut about it.

This has only become more and more true as I continue HRT. Within a month of starting HRT, my aggressiveness had been cut in half, thus taking the drive out of a lot of my previous "angry reactions." I am still having to work somewhat on my anger issues because it has become habit for me to react angrily to many things (as such, I will sometimes react in anger without ever actually feeling the anger).

Now, contrary to this, I'm very much like my mother, only with more knowledge (not bragging, she would confirm this if she were involved in this discussion >.< ). I am an incredibly stubborn bitch. Without testosterone, though, my stubbornness is less overt and more covert, though.

All in all, I'm shy, stubborn, passive, and bitchy. But only people who knew me before HRT (excluding a few like my best friend and boyfriend who have seen how HRT has helped me) consider me to be a confrontational and bitchy woman. People who've met me since then, unless influenced by others who knew me before, have been startled by my sudden bouts of bitchiness and merely attribute it to pms and rough days, which is at least half right.

QuoteAnother typically female struggle is body image and the pervasive belief among young girls and women that one need be pretty and thin to be worth anything. So many women measure their worth by their looks consciously or subconsciously. And if they fall short of the feminine ideal, they need to be working to achieve it.

As others have already said, body image is definitely an issue for us. I, personally, am "struggling" with my weight. For the past 8 years, I was in deep depression (not all of which caused by my gender dysphoria) and let myself get out of shape and gain weight. Now I'm in the process of losing that weight and getting into better shape, and while it's going very well, I still have bouts of depression over merely that aspect of my appearance. At other times, I start crying because I feel like I'll never be pretty enough. I don't know that I feel I have to be as gorgeous as Angelina Jolie or the like, but I want to at least be "pretty" and the thought of never reaching that point scares the hell out of me. I also occasionally will try to flat out starve myself when I feel like I'm not making progress on losing weight, though I've managed not to go that far for at least a couple months now.

QuoteThe above issues and others wreak havoc on women's self image everywhere.
I'm sure there are hundreds of other mostly female struggles. If you can think of them, I'd be grateful.

So do you feel your background has enabled you to escape these female mind traps or are you just as susceptible?

I can't think of any specific such struggles at the moment, but I would say I'm very much fully susceptible and have been all my life. I was never in tune with men at all. I never understood men, at least not the way men understand each other. I never could get along with them either, except in subservient "little girl" roles (such as one boy I knew who was a 6th/7th grader when I was a 5th/6th grader, and our relationship was more like little sister/older brother than anything else), and those were the better relationships. In most other cases, I was outcast from the boys and accepted into the girls' circles. The few extracurricular activities I took part in with boys, I wasn't being any different than a tomboy (though I'm definitely more femme than butch) and it was more to have people to do something with, and to make my dad happy.

I can honestly say that, even now, I don't understand men at all. My personal opinion of men is highly negative and likely based on the stereotypes that men themselves have reinforced in how they dealt with me, both when viewing me as male and when viewing me as female. Stereotypes of men being abusive, cruel, and shallow.

<giggle>  math?  are you kidding me?  i can't add two and two together and come up with the same answer twice in a row.  in that way i am very stereotypical and my male presentation hasn't helped one bit.  i'm just glad that i came along in the age of the calculator, without it i'm sure i would never have survived in the world of today.

however, i'm told i have pretty good taste in clothes...<blink, blink, blink>

I suppose that my education helped me.  But as I see it, I had everything working against me.  Somehow we survive.

Cindi

... Having the hand strength to open jars?

The hell are you talking about Nero?

Being MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.

Quote from: deviousxen on October 18, 2008, 12:54:07 AM
... Having the hand strength to open jars?

The hell are you talking about Nero?

Being MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.

Nice analogy there. Think I'm getting the picture. You girls don't get exempt from all society's pressure on little girls.

Quote from: Nero on October 18, 2008, 01:02:05 AM

Quote from: deviousxen on October 18, 2008, 12:54:07 AM
... Having the hand strength to open jars?

The hell are you talking about Nero?

Being MtF is as good as being an archeologist with a crappy shovel.

Nice analogy there. Think I'm getting the picture. You girls don't get exempt from all society's pressure on little girls.

Nope. It's just generally reversed and in many instances gets enforced with a violence that most girls don't experience as far as maintaining societal norms is concerned anyhow.

Nikki