I'll make this post a bit shorter since I'm pretty tired, time to go to bed.

Lisa,
I guess the talk about consciousness and body is too much of a perception to bring up as an argument...
It's true that the body is much more than just a host to your mind. It sends signals back to the mind which we interpret... but I don't view it as such that our body makes us feel, but rather, is interpreted in such a way that influences our minds to feel. This is a philosophical topic of its own however.

The mind is weird, so I guess for many it does associate a gender to their perceived image; it doesn't for many other people though. So it's not something that happens with everyone.. gender identity I mean. But I'm sure there's as many non-trans that do associate themselves to gender even if they don't really think about it. What I'm trying to say is that gender is only meaningful to people who associate to it.  It's not an association that 'needs' to happen or that happens naturally for everyone.
I guess it's more potent in some people than others though...

I don't think it's the mind's miscalculation to be trans, I think the miscalculation is putting so much value into gender association.. for anyone. Anything that has been directed too much value will become a struggle when it doesn't work out the way it's been expected.

Forget what I said about logic or illogic, it wasn't a good way to talk about things since we're already dwelling into abstract concepts..

Associating gender to feelings, thoughts or your own perception  may be simple for you but to me it's not, because I don't and can't do it..

if you say "i am female, but was born with a male body." I don't know how to interpret that. I can only see it in a simplified logical way for now; that you have a male body but you like to do things that typically the average females who are 'considered' 'normal' usually do. :S

Quote from: Saraloop on October 19, 2008, 08:12:57 PM
I'll make this post a bit shorter since I'm pretty tired.

Lisa,
I guess the talk about consciousness and body is too much of a perception to bring up as an argument...
It's true that the body is much more than just a host to your mind. It sends signals back to the mind which we interpret... but I don't view it as such that our body makes us feel, but rather, is interpreted in such a way that influences our minds to feel. This is a philosophical topic of its own however.

Well, if it's used as a linchpin for delegitimizing how a group of people experience the world, it's already problematic, simply because it's asserting something as reality that many people may not experience.

QuoteThe mind is weird, so I guess for many it does associate a gender to their perceived image; it doesn't for many other people though. So it's not something that happens with everyone.. gender identity I mean. But I'm sure there's as many non-trans that do associate themselves to gender even if they don't really think about it. What I'm trying to say is that gender is only meaningful to people who associate to it.  It's not an association that 'needs' to happen or that happens naturally for everyone.
I guess it's more potent in some people than others though...

I do not agree with this point - I don't believe that gender is unimportant to anyone. It's such a pervasive part of society and social conditioning that it is simply impossible for anyone to ignore it or divest it of all importance. Some of the people I've seen who claim to place the least amount of value on gender spend the most amount of time trying to argue about it - or specifically, about how a certain group of people (like trans people) either value gender too much or relate to it incorrectly. The idea that trans people are unique in identifying with gender is a fairly privileged assertion to make - that is, someone who doesn't have to live with being trans (both personally and with how society treats trans people) have an easy time claiming gender is unimportant. But to trans people, it tends to be very important because we can't forget about it. For many (less so now than in the past) our ability to present ourselves within strict gender normativity was the determining factor for receiving treatment (hormones and surgery). This wasn't necessarily how we wanted to present, but how we were required to present. This still happens with some doctors.

Considering how frequently I've been lectured about gender by people who aren't trans, I suspect that I consider gender to be much less important than most cis (non-trans) people.

QuoteI don't think it's the mind's miscalculation to be trans, I think the miscalculation is putting so much value into gender association.. for anyone. Anything that has been directed too much value will become a struggle when it doesn't work out the way it's been expected.

Say what? No, it's not a miscalculation. You keep trying to shift transition to be primarily about gender, and while I will not argue that it's not about gender at all, I will point out that you're putting the cart before the horse. Transition is about one's body. Transition is about one's social position in society in relation to that body. Transition is about body and mind being coherent and consistent.

It's just downright offensive to claim that trans people, in trying to make our own skins livable, is about a "miscalculation" in "putting so much value into gender." It's yet another judgement about who we are and what we do based on assumption. I'm not even sure you're reading what anyone here is saying that carefully, because you say:

QuoteAssociating gender to feelings, thoughts or your own perception  may be simple for you but to me it's not, because I don't and can't do it..

if you say "i am female, but was born with a male body." I don't know how to interpret that. I can only see it in a purely logical way; that you have a male body but you like to do things that typically the average females who are 'considered' 'normal' usually do. :S

That's not purely logical at all. That's biased. Your bias - your assumptions - are that trans people transition because of what we like to do and not because of who we are. If it even qualifies as logic, it's based on limited information - strictly speaking, your assumptions.

In my first response to you, I explained that transitioning has nothing to do with what trans people like to do, and I pointed out that I like doing things that are traditionally gendered as feminine as well as masculine. We're well past me saying that I'm female and a woman, but was assigned male at birth - I'm also saying "but what I do has nothing to do with who I am." If I just wanted to wear dresses, I could've done that without transitioning. If it was really about "behaving like a woman" (whatever that's even supposed to mean) and I was trying to divest myself of all masculine gendered activities, I wouldn't even be on the internet.

You're saying it doesn't make sense, but that's only because you're refusing to listen, at this point. In the above quote, you make it clear that you're substituting what trans people are saying for your own assumptions.

Why do you think that a trans woman who says she's a woman has anything at all to do with "things that typically the average females who are 'considered' 'normal' usually do." It seems like you have a pretty sexist perception of what trans women are like, if this is what you think we mean, like we're all June Cleaver or something. You're basically denying that trans women have as much diversity in gender expression as cis women do.

The first assumption you really need to abandon to talk about this in a way that makes sense is: "Transsexual people are not more attached or strongly identified with gender than cissexual people." What this means is that if you meet a transsexual woman, her gender is not different from a cissexual woman's. She's a woman. She's not a woman because she played with dolls as a child or because she likes to wear dresses or makeup or own frilly pink curtains (and she may not like or do any of these things). She's not a woman because she holds a stereotypical view of what women are like and believes she must fit that role. She's a woman because the identity of "woman" is axiomatic in society, and that's where she places herself.

Trans people's genders are equal to and identical to cis people's genders. That's it. Once you get past that hurdle, this should be easy:

The second assumption you need to abandon is the idea that subconscious sex is gender. It's not. It influences gender (which is why trans women frequently identify as woman and trans men frequently identify as men), but it influences gender for cissexual men and women (which is why they identify as men or women). If your brain insists your body must be female, and your body appears to be male, this will have a massive effect on your self-image. You may presume to claim (on the basis of your Cartesian duality) that this body image shouldn't have any effect on trans people, or very little effect, but you have not lived with the experience of being trans. You're making a judgement about how people who experience something you do not should relate to their bodies.

You should also read up on bodily alienation - how people with facial scars relate to that, or even how some people have reacted to having hands or other appendages transplanted from cadavers. One man had a penis transplant after he lost his own, and had it removed because it was just not his. Another dealt with a similar problem from a hand transplant. There's real, intense psychological effects if your body doesn't fit your brain's expectations.

And really, the most important thing is to stop confusing male for man for masculine and female for woman for feminine. These are different concepts:

Male and female are sexes.
Man and woman are gender roles.
Feminine and masculine are how actions and objects are gendered.

Transsexual people want to transition from male to female or female to male. This is a visceral need.
It is important for many transsexual people to be seen as women or men. This is because of the fact that female is tied to the social role of woman and male is tied to the social role of man.
Many transsexual women are feminine, but we don't transition because we're feminine, we're feminine because we identify as women. Not all transsexual women are feminine, either. Some are masculine.
Many transsexual men are masculine, but they don't transition because they're masculine. They're masculine because they identify as men. Not all transsexual men are masculine, either. Some are feminine.

Not all transsexual people identify as men or women. Many are genderqueer.

Quote from: Saraloop on October 18, 2008, 11:22:38 AM
Hi.
  I am seeking wisdom

really? well, you've already gotten some of the most brilliant posts, wouldn't cha think? i apologize if i'm mistaken but there are some 'trollish' overtones to this thread that i can't seem to ignore.  i hope it's just a figment of my imagination. tsk tsk tsk.

Actually, the problem I have with most of these posts, from her and her replies, is its so damn monolithic.  You know, there is not one way, there is no SOCIETY that dictates any of this to anyone.  Sure its there, but just as many people blow all that out their ass, as who swallow it whole cloth. 

Their are legions of people, living all sorts of lives, who don't worry about this, pay no attention to it, and just get on with their lives and do what they think they should do.  They find work that means something to them, people who like them, and if they want, a person who loves them. 

In all sorts of states, not just in Berkeley.  In all sorts of jobs, not just some fringe deal.  In all sorts of communities.

For all the people on these boards who bow down and worship at the feet of modern psychology I know just as many people who have transitioned - or found their life path - far removed from the world of head games, and found it in real relationships, in real values, in real work, with real people.

There are all sorts of ways to live in the modern world where one does not feel the need to kowtow to the notions of SOCIETY, or any of that crap.

Was I monolithic? Apologies if so - it's easy to get into an argument and spend energy trying to refute something and only end up supporting something pointless.

I was trying to get past the monolithic viewpoint she was presenting as well as not refer to psychiatry. I'm not a big fan.

I only just wish to leave a couple of thoughts here about genders and gender identity. This is only a theory and nothing more. I do believe that there is a spiritual connection to all living things and in the case of the human spark of life it is also connected to the spirit energy or soul if you may. The body is controlled by the mind all of our nervous system is governed by the mind. The body can feel the environment all around it that it resides in, but the body has no consciousness beyond it's extremities. It is the mind which not only sees, feels, smells, hears, but is also aware and conscious of it's environment surrounding it.

When does awareness awaken within the mind of the fetus? When does consciousness become aware of the host that it is contained in, *the fetus?* Nobody knows with any certainty. I beleive it is at a certain stage of the development that fetus's consciousness begins to collect data and information from it's environment inwards and outwards, this is also at this stage that the brain is hard wired to develop into the personality and characteristics that will grow and form into it's adult host's individuality. By the time it is born with all of it's brain circuitry and DNA strands fully developed and active holding all the data from it's most primitive times to the most recent in it's evolutionary state of modern day man.

I am gifted with the ability to recall in part from back at the age of two and have full recollection by the time I was three years old. I am going to call this *instinctive recall* for lack of a better term. From the age of three I clearly remember being more comfortable sharing and doing things with my sister and play dress up with her then any interests I had in doing boys stuff. I followed the same pattern through out my childhood and I had no knowledge of the difference in the genders. My sister and I were just two kids having fun playing games. I also played well with the girl next door and her friends.

It wasn't until when I got into my teens I continued to play pretend at being a girl when ever I could in hiding. I looked endrogenous and I had long hair, Hippie era, at times I would go out and about town dressed in my best friend's Helen's clothes, no one knew the difference.  I was always drawn to doing girls things, it held more interest then any thing else. I did play with some boys stuff but then I played equally well with my sisters dolls and what other toys she had, We shared toys.

So is this 

Quotebecause we have experienced from the day we were born,
jenny

I would agree with that fully. That instinct of knowing what gender we are lies within the grey mater within our own craniums. It is not learned or adopted from the outside, it is within us. It is inside of us and there is no way of changing it or fighting it, it's instinctive. Yeas I beleive it would be near to impossible for a cisgender or androgyne to understand, bu ti is an inside job. The inner spark of consciousness, where does thought come from? Not the process of the thought through the grey mater but the birth of that thought. Is it born from the spark of life, the soul?

You are welcome to visit my blog, Cindy's Ramblings Blog.

Cindy 

He. Sorry about that. Reading back what I wrote I find I was extremely insensitive. I was pushing and pushing a bit more with every post.  I think I was trying to see how far I could go getting away with what I was debating:P

I'm against alot of things in society for sure. I'd say it's well justified but I don't feel like arguing about that. I think we agree that intolerance is the bigger problem.

Quotebody and mind being coherent and consistent.

it really seems like this is the big thing right? the big struggle.
I may have debated against it, but really, it's a part of what I want to understand.
I wonder how it is that everyone I discuss this to around me, including my mom, seem to be magically immune to this; they'd all be fine with having a body of another gender...  it would get some getting used to, but it would not be a big struggle. Is it just this community?? I find that improbable. So you can see where my skepticism comes from..  but that doesn't mean it's less of a struggle for you.. and I never meant to make it sound that way.
But I still want people to consider the possibility that "body and mind being coherent and consistent." is not as important for everyone else; whatever struggles we have lie elsewhere.  And I feel that any struggle, of any kind, is a miscalculation by the mind. I see it as any negative feeling is a miscalculation, and any reason, in our mind, for experiencing these negative feelings, is unjustified as well. What use do we have of negative feelings?? - none.. but that's also something that someone could debate with me.. but anyway that's where my statement takes its direction, which Lisa again interpreted as if I was directing it only towards transgendered.. sorry if it came out like that.

I am listening. I've read every post I and understand more and more.. it's just that some of it I can't relate to...

QuoteYou make it clear that you're substituting what trans people are saying for your own assumptions.

Maybe I misworded what I meant to say. Because I didn't mean to substitute anything; I was merely trying to explain that I couldn't relate to 'being' like a particular gender and put it in a statement that I considered to make sense,and yes, used my own assumptions to debate.. and I guess I used the word 'logical' again which put the wrong point across.

QuoteYou're basically denying that trans women have as much diversity in gender expression as cis women do.

So. expressing your true self can come in different forms. I always put more value in expressing my true self through behavior... because expressing myself through body appearance means so little.. for me.. but I guess it does a lot for some.
Here's sort of a viewpoint from a form of my understanding up till now..
... if you associate your true self to a gender, then you'd want to express it with a "gender" as well... and since behavior by itself is not technically gendered, one could only express gender through their body which is clearly either male or female...  does that make sense?

but then,

QuoteThe second assumption you need to abandon is the idea that subconscious sex is gender. It's not. It influences gender (which is why trans women frequently identify as woman and trans men frequently identify as men), but it influences gender for cissexual men and women (which is why they identify as men or women).

I'm sure there's a lot of cissexual people around me, but since I started looking into gender identity, I have not been able to personally find someone who "identifies" with their genderm, or at least, anyone who knew they were. I dunno much about it. That's why I started this topic
So, What's subcounscious sex ?

QuoteMale and female are sexes.
Man and woman are gender roles.
Feminine and masculine are how actions and objects are gendered.

I've seen this used in other combinations too... is this what's official for this community?
Still a bit confused.

So anyway, I'm starting to feel a bit too serious again.. I'll let you guys share your opinions and I'll shut up for now. hopefully I've cleared up where I come from, not that it should matter..

oh, and cindybc's first paragraph sortof reflects my own view on consciousness.. which I'm sure many others share.

hey Sarahloop,

Just a question, no judgement.

Are you a feminist of the 'no difference between the sexes except the physical' (not up on the terms) persuasion?

Basically the thinking that there are no innate differences between male and female other than sex organs?

A lot of times feminists who hold this belief are the ones who have the hardest time understanding transpeople.

Just to answer Nero. I don't know, I haven't looked into feminism. 
I also don't really trust modern psychology so everything I assume comes from my own life experience, discussions with those around me and sometimes on the internet like now. I don't watch TV so I also don't have a firm grasp on what the general population thinks.

Quoteno difference between the sexes except the physical

sounds close to how I see it... but it's probably not the same. 
But I'm not someone who has firm beliefs, I make assumptions. I retract them when I have significant proof. I try to hold no bias, and if I notice that I project one I usually try to take it back.

I'm starting to come around and understand that perhaps there's something more to male and female than just the body.. and that maybe I just happen to be genderless...

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 07:34:07 AM
I'm sure there's a lot of cissexual people around me, but since I started looking into gender identity, I have not been able to personally find someone who "identifies" with their genderm, or at least, anyone who knew they were.

Your male friends wouldn't be upset if they lost their penis?

Your female friends wouldn't be horrified if they grew a penis?

Your male friends wouldn't be upset if they developed gynomastecia (breasts)?

Your female friends don't mind developing facial hair?

Your male friends wouldn't mind being called "miss?"

Your female friends wouldn't mind being called "sir?"

~Kate~

Quote from: Saraloop on October 18, 2008, 02:27:33 PM
Do you desire to be what you have in mind so much that you find it's just not fair for things to have turned out otherwise?

It's not a matter of being "not fair"......it is a certainty that it is not right.

Quote from: Saraloop on October 18, 2008, 02:27:33 PM

This might not be a wanted opinion but.. In a similar fashion, I'm sure there's 'normal' girls out there who have 'ugly' bodies and feel they should have a 'beautiful' one and probably cry all the time in front of the mirror wishing they had one, and feeling like it's supposed to be like they wish... But in a way, that seems like it's a form of denial...  if you can't accept what you are, then all it'll bring you is pain. I'm not saying you shouldn't act or dress how you like, but to accept the things that you can't change.
I recall multiple times feeling inadequate by my physical appearance or desiring it to be something else, but I've never thought that it 'should' be the way I want it to be.. because that's being unrealistic.

Here's a little perspective for you: 
If in the beginning of my transition, if I was assured that I would develop a female body, but with certainty, an ugly female body......AND, that were the ONLY certainty I could experience, I would today be sitting here in an ugly female body.  I would rather be an ugly female, than a handsome man.  Make sense?  The imperative?
Also, being lesbian, why in the world would I transition to female if I could "legitimately" have as many females as partners without the "hassle" (one of my very favorite bubba questions)


Bev

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 07:34:07 AM
So, What's subcounscious sex ?

I believe that Julia Serano came up with this term, for a complete understanding read her book Whipping Girl or check out her website. Paraphrasing briefly, she believes that it is a better term than gender identity to describe how we perceive our internal sense of gender.

Zythyra

I've read just about all of the posts on this thread; neglected to respond to many of them.  There's a little guy in my life......one of my grandsons.  At the age of three, he declared with a note of panic, that there was something wrong....something really wrong.  "what's wrong, honey?", Mom asked.  "I want to be a girl.  I hate my penis.  I'm not.....'posed to have it.  Mom.....why was I born a boy?  Can I have girl clothes?"

Okay, before you attach this thought to his "Papa's" (mine) transition, I'll say that my transition was not known to him, and started a year later.  He declares that he is a girl, and has wrong parts.

There is a biological aspect to this part of the diversity spectrum.  The fact is, we are continually evolving, and that evolution demands genetic change, good or bad.....random change.

And so, my daughter lets him or her dress as he or she wishes at home, call himself/herself what  she wants at home, and loves him or her the same, regardless.

Maybe it's luck that *he is living with me, and has lived with me through my own transition.  Has this impacted his desires?  No......*he's still undecided where *he wants to go, but *he can go whereever *he wants, with total family acceptance.

All of this "trying to understand" is easy for her.
To quote Michael Valentine, *he can "grok" it

Many people can't "grok" it, and that's okay with me.  I have no personal need to have anyone do so.
Have fun folks, play nice.



Nanna Bev

might as well respond..

Kate, I don't think growing stuff suddenly would be like being born with it... but I did ask about 5 or 6 of my friends some similar things and from what I understand, those of them that would mind, it'd be because of aesthetic reasons, and not because it contradicts their 'gender'. Personally, I find penises, breasts, and hair appalling/cumbersome . I have one friend who likes all of it though.. :S. I never asked about calling miss or mister however - I'd predict 2 of them would correct me for calling them the opposite of their sex for the sake of being correct (biologically).

QuoteIt's not a matter of being "not fair"......it is a certainty that it is not right.

a certainty... do you know what element made you know without a doupt?
I think I want to ask a series of stuff and then anybody can just answer anything they know..

How do you know for certain? an instinct like somebody said? or growing knowledge / contrast? .. at what point did you realize or know for certain that the body you had was not 'right'? was it when you were born? Or was it growing up and looking at your body and realizing you had expectations that differed from what actually formed? Or was it realized by comparing your attitude to those of others around you? Or is it something completely different? Am I asking too many questions?

...   

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 10:34:31 AM
Kate, I don't think growing stuff suddenly would be like being born with it... but I did ask some similar things and from what I understand, those of them that would mind, it'd be because of aesthetic reasons, and not because it contradicts their 'gender'.

I don't understand... do you only deal with androgynes in your circle of friends then?

The men I know would sooner die than lose their "manhood." Notice the millions of Viagra ads in the world? The billions of advertising dollars spent exploiting everyone's insecurities about being "real men" or "real women?" Men can't be real men without huge and responsive genitals... women can't be real women without being stick-thin with DD breasts.

It's not "aesthetic" to them, it's part of WHO THEY ARE, who they feel they need to be. They're manliness.. or femaleness... is an *extremely* important part of their identity, IMHO. Right or wrong, men with less than impressive genitals say they feel like "less of a man." Women who lose their breast(s) often say they feel like "less of of a woman."

I get that gender isn't important to you, but in my experience in the world out there, it's a HUGE part of nearly everyone else's identity and context in this world.

~Kate~

Quote from: Kate on October 20, 2008, 10:48:41 AM
I don't understand... do you only deal with androgynes in your circle of friends then?

...

I get that gender isn't important to you, but in my experience in the world out there, it's a HUGE part of nearly everyone else's identity and context in this world.

You're right. Maybe the friends I currently have are actually androgynous, but is it just a big coincidence? I think there's alot of people that don't super value their gender, unlike teen movie folks with the viagra and whatnot... life is not like TV.  Then again, it's not unusual for people to attract the same type as them, so maybe I just got lucky with that? I dunno. I definitely need to discuss androgynism with them more. Don't get me wrong though, I have 'manly' and 'girly' friends, but they wouldn't discuss stuff like this .. or never answer seriously.

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 07:34:07 AM
I wonder how it is that everyone I discuss this to around me, including my mom, seem to be magically immune to this; they'd all be fine with having a body of another gender...  it would get some getting used to, but it would not be a big struggle. Is it just this community?? I find that improbable. So you can see where my skepticism comes from..

Skepticism isn't being open minded, skepticism is approaching a subject from an inherent stance of disbelief. If you're skeptical then you start out with the idea that the thing you're skeptical of is entirely wrong, and try to prove that's the case.

Which is, I suspect, where the incessant barrage of infinitely more detailed questions come from (how long until we start discussing gender on the quantum level?). People go to therapy in order to try and understand themselves better. Trained professionals may be able to answer your questions to a level that you'll be satisfied with... although I'm starting to doubt such a thing is possible since you keep re-wording the same questions over and over with scant regard to the answers people give you.

The vast majority of people here don't have decades of psychological, biochemical and neuroscientific experience or qualification in order to understand and express why we feel the way we do, and the vast amount of subtle processes that contribute to it. If we knew that with the level of detail you require, we'd all write books on the subject and be very wealthy.

I'm beginning to wonder if you're waiting for people to start saying "I don't know, I can't answer your question so you must be right and I'm fooling myself." Which will validate your theories.

Except the inner knowledge and feelings of the individual far surpasses the ability to express it. But that's all I'm going to say about that because I believe this 'debate' is starting to serve very little purpose other than to try and back people into a corner.

However, on the subject of other people saying it wouldn't be a big deal to be the other gender... it's very easy for someone to hypothesise from a position of being happy in their own skin and secure in their gender. It's like someone saying they'd easily be able to starve for a week while tucking into hamburgers and fries.

Aside from the fact that they would already have the experience and knowledge of what it feels like to be in the right body, and would have done so for some years, so it's not the same thing as being born with the wrong body... hypothetical is all those discussions will ever be, and unless you are in that position, you can't speak with any degree of authority.

Leiandra,

you make good points.
Skepticism doesn't mean someone isn't open though, it just means they enter the topic with some doubt (I can still be convinced out of it). I'd say mine is a very 'light' skepticism which I bring with me everywhere I go
And, I think maybe subconsciously a part of me was trying to not so much corner, but rather, pushing to conclude an assumption.. if that makes any sense.. sorry about that.

I'm sure it's hard to express something that's hard to understand, especially to someone who has trouble relating, but that doesn't mean you can't discuss, be it hypothetical or not. Speculation, debating, communicating, expressing! is fun!

Good point about "hypothesise from a position of being happy in their own skin" ... but I don't think it only goes one way. I would even argue that positions from being unhappy are much less good.. negativity never brings out good answers... let's not stoop to that level though.

Anyway, I'll drop the whole subject for now if it starts bringing out any hate. To me, even when I detect that someone's trying to corner me in a debate I still enjoy it.. but if I see anything more about my motives behind this, it's over. I don't toy around with discrediting a whole someone or their motives - that's baloney.

Here's my two cents Saraloop.

We know that birth defects do happen. We know that the mind does adapt to two bodies joined with shared organs or limbs, three arms, no hands, a penis and a vagina, a penis and ovaries or any of the other birth defects that occur.

My point is that not only is the body affected by these birth defects but so is the mind since it controls the body and everthing about us. Therefore, the mind is altered from the norm to support the birth defect. Also, these birth defects range from severe to minimal such as a female having a beard or a man having little body hair. Now, if one accepts that there are many degrees of birth defects, then wouldn't it be logical that a birth defect could just occur with the mind and that mind could be in conflict with the body?

Currently there is a highly accepted scientific study showing that in a large majority of M to F transsexuals their Y chromosome is misshaped or irregular and the banding is structured differently than non-trans males.

Now a little personal perspective to try and give you an example of how transsexulism is not a choice that can be made or controlled.

I am considered a handsome athletic man with a beautiful wife, three wonderful children, an enviable life and where money is no concern for me or my children. But for what ever reason I cannot find peace and contentment with my mind and body. Therefore, I am willing to give up my enviable life to find internal happiness. Even in the realization that my transition will hurt the people I love and be difficult as I am older than most and over 6 feet tall. But this is a better solution for me and my family than to kill myself and scaring them worse.

You see I was born in the early 1950's so there was very little available about GID or transsexualism. My early life was hell as my Father could not take my feminine ways and tried to verbally and physically beat them out of me. The result was that I pushed those feelings inside as much as I could to survive. I didn't want to change from a feminine boy. It didn't bother me at all. But the definitions of being a male were forced on me.

So from that point forward I had no idea why I didn't get along with the boy's and preffered to be with girl's. I had no idea why songs like Lola, pictures of men cross dressed or movies with cross dressing or gender changing made me sad and uncomfortable. I didn't know why looking at pictures of naked women didn't sexually excite me but made me sad that I wasn't one of them. Or why watching porno's with the boy's didn't do anything but make me sad for the women. Or why when I finally was able to cross dress in my twenties that I immediately found peace and tranquilty.

All of my life I was not comfortable with who I was and didn't understand or know why until I finally did gender therapy 2 years ago. This is not a choice for me. Everyday of my life has been an internal battle just to stay alive.

So after 20 years of therapy and all the other stuff I did to deny my GID I am emotionally and mentally exhausted. Then this year I became seriously depressed to point of planning my suicide and writing the goodbye letters. Why? Because my mind and body do not match and this will not let me be at peace and relax in life. Therefore, I will never be at peace until I change my body to match my brain.

Do I want to do this? Yes, because if I don't I will not survive much longer. Would I have chosen this path for me. Absolutely not.

Here's hoping that I have added some perspective for you and not just ran on about a lot of nothing.

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 07:34:07 AM
I wonder how it is that everyone I discuss this to around me, including my mom, seem to be magically immune to this; they'd all be fine with having a body of another gender...  it would get some getting used to, but it would not be a big struggle. Is it just this community?? I find that improbable. So you can see where my skepticism comes from..  but that doesn't mean it's less of a struggle for you.. and I never meant to make it sound that way.

That is total BS.  Its one thing to say you would be fine in a conversation and entirely another to actually "BE" fine if it happened.  Also keep in mind that if you were "talking" like you are here then you were most definately "leading" them to say what you wanted.  It would actually be harder to phrase it to get a "real" answer to this question than to phrase it such that "oh it wouldn't matter" is the only acceptable answer (even unintentionally).

Kate has already given quite a few good examples of how this is simply not true in any real sense with respect to the general population.