No CC, You have not "ran on about a lot of nothing." ... more than 20 years of emotional torment is.. A Lot
I barely survived a couple of years of something I couldn't cope with, I couldn't imagine so long, and that wasn't even the same kind of thing. I thought I just wasn't good enough to change my mentality about it.. since we do have a certain extent of control over our feelings.. but, I've probably overestimated the human mind's capacity to adapt and be at peace.
This makes things annoying.. viewing it like it's so deeply programmed into the mind that it can't be changed through will..

.. and, hiddenflame, think what you want, I wasn't leading anyone but I agree that they could be wrong about their answer due to a different experience.. but everyone passes through different experiences and different reasons for what they know / believe, feel free to judge them but I know their background so I'm giving some of them the benefit of the doupt. I'm open to the possibility that their minds would suddenly reject their new body... but .. this is getting a bit to theoretical again..

It is possible what we call gender identity is many different things.

Now you only have to look around you and see how prevalent gendering is. Why would people do this on a whim? It makes no sense. Logically there has to be something driving it inside of each of us. Certainly society creates certain rules for behaviour but you have to remember that we made society, why do we do we create these rules? When you look at males and females I don't think the behaviour itself is that important but the very fact that we as a people create gendered spaces for ourselves. We also seem to deisre to fit into these spaces based on internal drivers. There is something about it that must be important to us as a species otherwise it would not happen. Makes sense no?

I think the body thing is another, but related, issue. As an androgyne I suffer dysphoria. This is probably a simplistic view but I believe that our brains are wired for a certain body and when the body and wireing don't match it is very distressing. Perhaps your wiring matches your body so you don't know what it is like? 

Now I'm an androgyne too, but unlike you it causes me distress. Gender matters to me. Why doesn't it matter to you? That must be liberating but frustrating all at once. Do you feel like you are missing something?

Do you think this is something that can be understood by someone without gender identity Saraloop? I think the trap you have fallen into, the same one most of us fall into, is believing that deep down everyone is the same as us. I believe that in reality everyone is different. You might have to get over it that you will never understand, but you can certainly learn to accept. You can't argue that what someone is feeling is not valid.

Quote from: hiddenflame on October 20, 2008, 02:08:01 PM

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 07:34:07 AM
I wonder how it is that everyone I discuss this to around me, including my mom, seem to be magically immune to this; they'd all be fine with having a body of another gender...  it would get some getting used to, but it would not be a big struggle. Is it just this community?? I find that improbable. So you can see where my skepticism comes from..  but that doesn't mean it's less of a struggle for you.. and I never meant to make it sound that way.

That is total BS.  Its one thing to say you would be fine in a conversation and entirely another to actually "BE" fine if it happened.  Also keep in mind that if you were "talking" like you are here then you were most definately "leading" them to say what you wanted.  It would actually be harder to phrase it to get a "real" answer to this question than to phrase it such that "oh it wouldn't matter" is the only acceptable answer (even unintentionally).

Kate has already given quite a few good examples of how this is simply not true in any real sense with respect to the general population.

Yes, I simply do not believe anyone who says that sie would be okay with suddenly changing sex. I think that such claims are trivializing toward trans people and are based in really big, really wrong assumptions about how human beings relate to our bodies. Since people who believe such things tend have no frame of reference for this, and since it's possible to point to people who experience alienation from their own bodies because of injuries and scarring (especially to the face), I think that the people making such claims are just not admitting that they don't know how they'd react if they found themselves in that position.

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 02:39:05 PM
.. but, I've probably overestimated the human mind's capacity to adapt and be at peace.
This makes things annoying.. viewing it like it's so deeply programmed into the mind that it can't be changed through will..

Sorry to make things annoying dear. But the fact of the matter is that the human brain is deeply programmed and some things can't be changed through will or anything else. The part about deeply programed I have learned from three doctors I really respect. But I denied it for the longest time and thought it was ..... I have tried everyhting. Alcohol, all recreational drugs, risk taking, meds, will power, denial and nothing ever worked. All I can do is to make myself whole and not two differrent parts.

Have you ever talked to a qualified gender therapist? I am lucky to have one of the most experienced doctor's close to me. She has helped me to see and understand all that I am and to finally accept myself. I owe her my life.

Quote from: Nicky on October 20, 2008, 03:24:52 PM
It is possible what we call gender identity is many different things.

Now you only have to look around you and see how prevalent gendering is. Why would people do this on a whim? It makes no sense. Logically there has to be something driving it inside of each of us. Certainly society creates certain rules for behaviour but you have to remember that we made society, why do we do we create these rules? When you look at males and females I don't think the behaviour itself is that important but the very fact that we as a people create gendered spaces for ourselves. We also seem to deisre to fit into these spaces based on internal drivers. There is something about it that must be important to us as a species otherwise it would not happen. Makes sense no?

I think the body thing is another, but related, issue. As an androgyne I suffer dysphoria. This is probably a simplistic view but I believe that our brains are wired for a certain body and when the body and wireing don't match it is very distressing. Perhaps your wiring matches your body so you don't know what it is like? 

Now I'm an androgyne too, but unlike you it causes me distress. Gender matters to me. Why doesn't it matter to you? That must be liberating but frustrating all at once. Do you feel like you are missing something?

Do you think this is something that can be understood by someone without gender identity Saraloop? I think the trap you have fallen into, the same one most of us fall into, is believing that deep down everyone is the same as us. I believe that in reality everyone is different. You might have to get over it that you will never understand, but you can certainly learn to accept. You can't argue that what someone is feeling is not valid.

ooooooo... you totally burst my bubble there
I'm decently confused right now I probably need to re-evaluate some stuff.

I'm still divided about society for now. But the rest;
I agree that I've fallen into the trap to a certain extent, and if you put gender and dysphoria into that trap... well it puts into question some of my notions on this subject. I've assumed to be Androgynous only a while ago, ..., it doesn't matter too much since it's only a label.. but I have actually been considering removing my sexual organs for quite some time, and if I do so, to think that it could shake my very foundation and end up with me developing dysphoria of some kind? ..scary.
I'm not sure what to think about it right now..

QuoteNow I'm an androgyne too, but unlike you it causes me distress. Gender matters to me. Why doesn't it matter to you? That must be liberating but frustrating all at once. Do you feel like you are missing something?

I wish I knew. It matters in a different way. I guess I can try to explain my situation...
When I look at myself in the mirror, I don't see myself, I see a human body, one that I'm able to control. But somehow knowing that it's not me I'm seeing is ok since I feel that my true self has no visual appearance. My 'thoughts, desires, my will, feelings, etc.' are what compose my true self and I find myself unable to attach myself to any kind of image... at all. Liberating in some ways yes, knowing that my true self is intact regardless of my body is ugly or whatever.. but yes, It does feel at times like something is missing, like I'm not able to grasp who I truly am... as well as feeling uncomfortable by my limits at times... like if I'm not able to reach my full potential.. as well as not knowing the extent of it.
But the most frustrating is being unable to behave the way I truly want , in fear that I'll be judged by everyone for not abiding by the 'gender' rules along with other rules like 'adult' rules. I can not relate to sex in any way besides knowing what kind of body I have.. I do not like or care for any sexual organs or body hair and find those cumbersome. I can relate to traits of different people from both genders but it doesn't seem like I can associate any of the traits to a gender without being told what trait is considered what gender or making a generalization by observing.
Most of the time I'm not unhappy though. I do get depressed when I feel like I'm obligated to do stuff... well other stuff too...
... and that is alot of info that I usually don't share... If that helps you understand more how I think.

...sooo...  what do you make of that. 

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 07:34:07 AM

Quotebody and mind being coherent and consistent.

it really seems like this is the big thing right? the big struggle.
I may have debated against it, but really, it's a part of what I want to understand.
I wonder how it is that everyone I discuss this to around me, including my mom, seem to be magically immune to this; they'd all be fine with having a body of another gender...  it would get some getting used to, but it would not be a big struggle. Is it just this community?? I find that improbable. So you can see where my skepticism comes from..  but that doesn't mean it's less of a struggle for you.. and I never meant to make it sound that way.

I don't believe this. I don't believe people are telling the truth when they say this. I do not believe that many people are capable of telling the truth about this. I just don't think that people have the frame of reference necessary to be able to say that they'd be fine with having the body of the other sex because they've never had to live with having a body of the other sex. So, no, they're not magically immune to this. They're magically privileged in not having to ever deal with it, and this gives them a perspective primarily influenced by that privilege.

It's like... I read somewhere that white people would accept $10,000 to turn black, but would require over a million dollars to experience the effects of racism. That is, that people don't really grasp their privilege until it's actually gone.

Anyway, yeah, it's extremely trivializing to claim that one wouldn't actually mind changing sex, that this would cause no problems, that anyone would be happy to switch and wouldn't experience any alienation or dissociation from hir own body. It implies - yet again - that trans people are dysfunctional while cissexual people somehow function "normally" in comparison.

QuoteBut I still want people to consider the possibility that "body and mind being coherent and consistent." is not as important for everyone else; whatever struggles we have lie elsewhere.  And I feel that any struggle, of any kind, is a miscalculation by the mind. I see it as any negative feeling is a miscalculation, and any reason, in our mind, for experiencing these negative feelings, is unjustified as well. What use do we have of negative feelings?? - none.. but that's also something that someone could debate with me.. but anyway that's where my statement takes its direction, which Lisa again interpreted as if I was directing it only towards transgendered.. sorry if it came out like that.

This, too is trivializing. I want you to consider the possibility that "body and mind being coherent and consistent" is not as important for everyone else because "everyone else" doesn't have to live with an inconsistent body and mind. I also want you to consider that since trans people are forced to grow up in a society and culture that favors the cissexual viewpoint over the transsexual viewpoint, that we have to be keenly aware of how cissexual people are not only comfortable in their skins in a way that we are not, that they are also frequently unaware of this comfort because they've never experienced its lack. And that they assume that their unawareness of their own comfort in their own skins is something that should be equally experienced by trans people.

I think, by calling what trans people experience a "miscalculation" and "negative feelings," you're making a judgement you shouldn't be about how trans people experience our own lives and bodies. What I did with my body was right and not a miscalculation. My negativity comes from a society that not only favors cissexual viewpoints over transsexual viewpoints, but from a society that considers transsexual lives to be worth significantly less than cissexual lives. That is, the negativity I experience comes directly from society. So, if you want to talk a miscalculation related to transsexual people, I suggest that transphobia - anti-trans hatred and bigotry - is where you should look. Not to how transsexual people relate to our own bodies.

QuoteI am listening. I've read every post I and understand more and more.. it's just that some of it I can't relate to...

The belief that you have to relate to it is highly privileged, though. There's a lot of experiences I personally can't relate to, but that doesn't mean I feel entitled to question their validity. I don't feel entitled to claim that if I were in a position to experience something I don't relate to now, that I would experience it in some "better, magically immune way" that implies that the people who do experience it on a daily basis are somehow wrong or "making miscalculations."

Why are you entitled to be able to relate to everything trans people experience?

Quote

QuoteYou make it clear that you're substituting what trans people are saying for your own assumptions.

Maybe I misworded what I meant to say. Because I didn't mean to substitute anything; I was merely trying to explain that I couldn't relate to 'being' like a particular gender and put it in a statement that I considered to make sense,and yes, used my own assumptions to debate.. and I guess I used the word 'logical' again which put the wrong point across.

But you did substitute something and that something is a common fallacy and prejudice many cissexual people hold about transsexual people - that why we transition is specifically about being free to act in certain ways.

Also: In day-to-day life, do people see you as the gender associated with your assigned sex? If they do, does this bother you?

Quote

QuoteYou're basically denying that trans women have as much diversity in gender expression as cis women do.

So. expressing your true self can come in different forms. I always put more value in expressing my true self through behavior... because expressing myself through body appearance means so little.. for me.. but I guess it does a lot for some.
Here's sort of a viewpoint from a form of my understanding up till now..

... if you associate your true self to a gender, then you'd want to express it with a "gender" as well... and since behavior by itself is not technically gendered, one could only express gender through their body which is clearly either male or female...  does that make sense?

You seem to think that a body being a particular sex doesn't involve any action. I want you to consider this: That transsexual people choose our sex by choosing to transition, choosing to take hormones, choosing to seek electrolysis (women, anyway), choosing surgery. That cissexual people choose their sex by choosing not to undergo any of those procedures. That by simply having a body with an identifiable sex, that a choice has been made. An action has been taken. For a comparable idea (choosing to live every day by not killing yourself), check out Camus' The Myth of Sisyphus.

Also, "that behavior itself is not technically gendered" is false. Behavior is gendered in at least two ways - one is that much behavior is gendered stereotypically - liking sports, or working on cars, or guns, or hunting, or fishing, is stereotypically gendered masculine. That this is ingrained in social consciousness. That no human being who has grown up in Western society can realistically claim that sie has not internalized these assumptions about those activities - and the same is true about stereotypically feminine activities. The second way behavior is gendered is who you see doing it. People react differently to women doing something than they do to men doing something. While none of these activities are inherently gendered as masculine or feminine, we're socialized to gender them. It's just not plausible to discuss behavior without also discussing how behavior is gendered by the participant or any observer.

I would also argue that the assumption that people do not generally associate their true self with a gender is false. While many people may claim it is so, those people typically do not live with the experience of people telling them that their gender is false or invalid. They don't live with people telling them - society telling them - that they're really not who they think they are. I think you need to question whether people who claim this explicitly identify as men or women. I think you need to question how they see men and women as relating to each other, what marriage means, just how much their expectations of gender are shaped socially and how harshly they judge people who fall outside those socially shaped expectations. Even for those who claim to be attached to a particular gender - how do they feel about being assumed to be a member of the other sex? If a female-bodied person claims to not identify strongly with being a woman, how would this person react to being referred to as a man all the time? Would she actually be okay with that? How would she even know without experiencing it?

Finally, not all transsexual people identify with "man" or "woman" despite still needing to transition from male to female or female to male. For a lot of people, gender identification is a strong part of transition, for a lot of other people, it's not. The need to physically transition is still there.

You keep asserting things about cissexual people on the thinnest threads of justification, and then you give them greater weight than detailed explanations from transsexual people. Why is that?

Quotebut then,

QuoteThe second assumption you need to abandon is the idea that subconscious sex is gender. It's not. It influences gender (which is why trans women frequently identify as woman and trans men frequently identify as men), but it influences gender for cissexual men and women (which is why they identify as men or women).

I'm sure there's a lot of cissexual people around me, but since I started looking into gender identity, I have not been able to personally find someone who "identifies" with their genderm, or at least, anyone who knew they were. I dunno much about it. That's why I started this topic
So, What's subcounscious sex ?

Cissexual = a person who feels no need to alter hir physical sex. You're conflating sex and gender again.

Subconscious sex = The sex your brain expects your body to be. Everyone has a subconscious sex, whether it matches their assigned sex or not. If your body is female and you're fine with that, then your subconscious sex is female. If your body is assigned male and you know it should be female, then your subconscious sex is still female. Julia Serano coined the term.

You, for example, misuse gender identity horribly, which is why I would really like for you to dissociate the need to transition physically from the idea of gender roles. "Gender" is a loaded term thanks to feminist and queer theory, leading to all kinds of assumptions about what the word really means when the word "gender" as used in "gender identity" and "gender dysphoria" actually refers to subconscious sex (and thus the need or lack of need to transition).

As I explained above, I don't believe your standards for determining whether cissexual people are actually up to the same standard that you're trying to apply to transsexual people here. It sounds like, basically, they told you that they don't identify with their gender, and you took them at their word. I think that it would take something a bit more intensive and comprehensive to determine whether people identify with any given gender. Especially when talking to people who haven't ever had to deal with challenges to their gender identification as false, deceptive, wrong, or even immoral.

I'm still trying to figure out why it's necessary to identify with something in order to accept its truth.

QuoteMale and female are sexes.
Man and woman are gender roles.
Feminine and masculine are how actions and objects are gendered.

I've seen this used in other combinations too... is this what's official for this community?
Still a bit confused.[/quote]

I've been lurking here for approximately a year, and I never saw any official word. Of course, I'm not a moderator and I only started posting yesterday. I'm speaking for myself, but I do think you really need to make these distinctions if you want to talk about subconscious sex and gender identity and transitioning or not transitioning, or even try to make points about how people do or do not identify with their gender.

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 07:34:07 AM
I wonder how it is that everyone I discuss this to around me, including my mom, seem to be magically immune to this; they'd all be fine with having a body of another gender...  it would get some getting used to, but it would not be a big struggle. Is it just this community?? I find that improbable. So you can see where my skepticism comes from..  but that doesn't mean it's less of a struggle for you.. and I never meant to make it sound that way.

I can see where your skepticism comes from, but i'm also very sceptical that any cisgender person would be fine with suddenly changing sex.  I have a friend who had testicular cancer, and he certainly wasn't fine after they were removed.  In fact he had to be sectioned for a few months afterwards.

Anyway, besides the issue of whether or not such a cisgender person would still have the identity with their former gender, the practical implications of suddenly being the other sex are huge.  The way society relates to you, whats "proper" behaviour, etc.  I'd be shocked if it wouldn't be a struggle for you or anybody you've spoken to.  Its a struggle to adjust to living as the real us in practical terms, even with this intrinsic knowledge that we're living our true gender.

I agree with you that i think its highly improbable that cisgender people are that much different from transgender people in terms of being gendered.  Though i notice that your skeptism seems to be towards our community, as opposed to cisgender friends and family who are just imagining what it'd be like.  Doesn't experience provide more evidence that supposition?

Posted on: October 20, 2008, 10:48:07 pm

---

Quote from: Lisa Harney on October 20, 2008, 04:43:46 PM

QuoteMale and female are sexes.
Man and woman are gender roles.
Feminine and masculine are how actions and objects are gendered.

I've seen this used in other combinations too... is this what's official for this community?
Still a bit confused.

To my knowledge, there isn't anything official (somebody please correct me if i'm wrong!).  But all of us on this forum recognise that biological sex, gender identity, gender role, femininity/masculinity are all different.  Though not everyone will use the same labels.

In general
sex = biological/anatomy
gender = identity
gender role/behaviour/stereotypes/most other stuff = society

cisgender = not transgender              (gender cos its not related to physical biology)

Hi Saraloop,
Define to me what your idea of what the difference is in a cisgender woman and a cisgender man and just what constitute the psychologically of one and the other. I am not talking about the stereotypes I am talking about what comes from their instinctive thoughts and feelings, what is the difference in the pattern of their thoughts and feelings?  If you can answer this, then possibly you will better understand the deviations between genders that are members of the growing transgender family, which by the way androgyne is also a member of that family. From what I have learned about the androgyne they also have a swing psychologically between genders. Forgive me if the word psychological is not the right word to identify the thoughts and feelings that swing between the two genders. Sometimes I can do pretty good with he $100.00 words but today they seem to elude me.

Quotewomen can't be real women without being stick-thin with DD breasts.
Kate

Secondly--- Fore the last five years before I began transition I was totally possessed by the thoughts and desire to be a woman to the point I went anorexic in my attempt to emulate what I thought was a more feminine body. I was slowly starving myself to death and may very well have if my love Wing Walker hadn't intervened.

Cindy   

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 04:42:57 PM
I wish I knew. It matters in a different way. I guess I can try to explain my situation...
When I look at myself in the mirror, I don't see myself, I see a human body, one that I'm able to control. But somehow knowing that it's not me I'm seeing is ok since I feel that my true self has no visual appearance. My 'thoughts, desires, my will, feelings, etc.' are what compose my true self and I find myself unable to attach myself to any kind of image... at all. Liberating in some ways yes, knowing that my true self is intact regardless of my body is ugly or whatever.. but yes, It does feel at times like something is missing, like I'm not able to grasp who I truly am... as well as feeling uncomfortable by my limits at times... like if I'm not able to reach my full potential.. as well as not knowing the extent of it.
But the most frustrating is being unable to behave the way I truly want , in fear that I'll be judged by everyone for not abiding by the 'gender' rules along with other rules like 'adult' rules. I can not relate to sex in any way besides knowing what kind of body I have.. I do not like or care for any sexual organs or body hair and find those cumbersome. I can relate to traits of different people from both genders but it doesn't seem like I can associate any of the traits to a gender without being told what trait is considered what gender or making a generalization by observing.
Most of the time I'm not unhappy though. I do get depressed when I feel like I'm obligated to do stuff... well other stuff too...
... and that is alot of info that I usually don't share... If that helps you understand more how I think.

...sooo...  what do you make of that. 

I think we are getting somewhere.

Sounds like you actually feel very similar of what others feel too. You said your body is not really you. I feel the same and I think many non-transitioned transsexuals feel the same too. You're ok with that and that's really cool. But I get an inkling from what you said that if you actually thought about it and delved a bit deeper you might find that actually that bothers you just a little - feeling uncomfortable at your limits, not knowing who you are. What you are inside is indistinct and it is hard to translate this into a body. I think this is one of the hard things about being an androgyne, knowing something is a bit out of sorts but not having a clear idea of a direction.

You mentioned not being able to behave the way your truly want. I would hazard a guess that your identity as a person says you should be able to do certain things that society says you can't. This is similar to what people mean when they talk about their gender identity "I am this, so I should be able to do that and be recognised as this".

Now I'm not saying you should feel worse, or compelled to do something about it. It is great if you are comfortable enough in your own skin that you can get by in the world without radical change. But you should realise that for other transgendered people these feelings are hugely debilitating. Take your feelings about your behaviour restrictions and magnify it 1000 times so that every gender limitation becomes agony. Life soon becomes unbearable unless you did something about it.

I'm guessing all your questions are really an attempt to answer your own internal questions, the feeling of missing something, seeking out and trying to find your place. I suggest that you will learn more by talking and exploring your own perception of self as you did in the above quote than trying to make the world fit your current perceptions.

Quote from: cindybc on October 20, 2008, 06:05:20 PM
Hi Saraloop,
Define to me what your idea of what the difference is in a cisgender woman and a cisgender man and just what constitute the psychologically of one and the other. I am not talking about the stereotypes I am talking about what comes from their instinctive thoughts and feelings, what is the difference in the pattern of their thoughts and feelings?  If you can answer this, then possibly you will better understand the deviations between genders that are members of the growing transgender family, which by the way androgyne is also a member of that family.

mmm... everyone has different patterns for thoughts and feelings, so the only way I can think of answering that is by generalizing... If the cisgender man and woman adjust their attitude and thought pattern to their perceived gender role(ie from society), then I guess the woman would tend to be more passive, nurturing and men more aggressive, less caring.. etc.  but that's stereotypes... so I don't know what you mean. To think that each would have different "instinctive thoughts and feelings" is theoretical if you remove the factor of hormones...
..I feel like I may be sliding across your point .. maybe because of the way I preceive or classify things which is probably leading to all the misunderstandings we're having. But I have to admit I don't quite see the whole picture yet.
I was trying to formulate a question regarding the transgender's self image compared to the perceived gender role but I don't think that's actually what I'm looking for..


eh..well anyway,

QuoteI suggest that you will learn more by talking and exploring your own perception of self as you did in the above quote than trying to make the world fit your current perceptions.

Nikky thanks for your answers. weird how this turned around to become about me.. but I do have alot of unanswered questions about myself too.. maybe I need alot more soul searching..

QuoteTake your feelings about your behaviour restrictions and magnify it 1000 times so that every gender limitation becomes agony. Life soon becomes unbearable unless you did something about it.

urrh, 1000 ... that'd kill me of heartattack for sure... 
Actually, When I'm in public I feel many times worse .. but I think we were talking about all the time, not just in public, right?. Because I don't feel judged when I'm alone, just when im in society's eye.

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 10:34:31 AM
might as well respond..

How do you know for certain? an instinct like somebody said? or growing knowledge / contrast? .. at what point did you realize or know for certain that the body you had was not 'right'? was it when you were born? Or was it growing up and looking at your body and realizing you had expectations that differed from what actually formed? Or was it realized by comparing your attitude to those of others around you? Or is it something completely different?


Am I asking too many questions?

...   

Yes, you are asking too many questions.  You are playing with people in a forum that is primarily for support, and when trolls or others show up to have a good time, it is very tiresome.  Your questions are for your debate (or, debatable) "fun".  Your "grilling"  is competitive, mildly combative in nature, and reminds me of a young person who needs their immature ego stroked.  All in all, it's a tiresome waste of time. You are in effect demanding that the people here justify what they do, and frankly, they should not have to.


Bev

Quote from: Miss Bev on October 20, 2008, 07:57:39 PM
Yes, you are asking too many questions.  You are playing with people in a forum that is primarily for support, and when trolls or others show up to have a good time, it is very tiresome.  Your questions are for your debate (or, debatable) "fun".  Your "grilling"  is competitive, mildly combative in nature, and reminds me of a young person who needs their immature ego stroked.  All in all, it's a tiresome waste of time. You are in effect demanding that the people here justify what they do, and frankly, they should not have to.
Bev

I didn't know asking alot of questions was "trolling" or "grilling".
Asking and demanding are completely different.
While I find debate fun, it is primaly used as my tool for understanding. When you do something, like exercise, to reach your goal, don't you prefer doing it in a fun way? 
Plus receiving lots of answers helps me beat it into my head and make links clearer.. I'm just like that.
If you didn't like the way I ask, then just don't answer or don't bother with me, it's that simple. By saying what you just did without knowing how I think and process stuff, you're attacking my very nature, saying it's a 'troll'.

I think this topic has served well enough. We can close it, if there's any moderator willing to.

Thank you all those who shared

But the fact of the matter is that the human brain is deeply programmed and some things can't be changed through will or anything else.

I'm not sure about that.  I'm sure its hard.  Perhaps even almost impossible.  But....  but, but, but, the only thing more powerful than the way the brain can be condishioned, is the brain itself.  And - and I would not say this if I had not seen it happen in several ways in many people in front of my eyes - I have seen people overcome it.  Surpass it, or regress from it too.  The Marine Corps (just to use one example, I'm sure I could track them back to Rome) can take any clean-cut, church going kid and make a stone cold killer out of him.  In a matter of months.  Perhaps that is good.  For sure, I would not be writing this, in this kind of atmosphere of freedom, had they not done it, several different times at least.  But I've known several on the other end too.  The 'after' that happens.  It's not pretty.

But I've also seen people who were conditioned to poverty, terminal under- achivement, crime, vice and general crap fix their minds to get out of it.  It also occurs to me from time to time, both in real life and in reading these boards (and others) that a lot of kids who were loved and raised right wound up on skid row, drinking themselves to death as they lay in a puddle of puke and their own urine.  Or just on a slab in the city morgue with the spike still in their arm.  Happens every day, every night.

All sorts of people can change their mind.  For good or ill.

So too with gender.  Some people know this from day one.  Others come to the conclusion later.  All sorts of different paths to get there.  All sorts of ways to go once you know.

No single answer.  No one way. 

No one story.

Identity is personal.  It is unique as best as I can tell.  And, its not permanent in all cases. 

I've known some people who were always the same throughout their life.

Others, have changed so many times, it blows my mind.

Well my dear I'm afraid that you may want to rethink that. I had a close friend who was in the Nam war. When he came back I moved in with him on the res. He hit the bottle and never breathed a sober breath again until he died of serosis of the liver in my arms 10 years later. Yea he had been brain washed and trained to be a killing machine but towards the end on many nights I found myself holding a little boy in my arms, a little boy frightened of the dark and crying. They can't brain wash you into forgetting who you were.

As for what ever it is that is in our brain that makes us what we are, no mater what gender whether trans or cis doesn't mater, we all have feelings emotions and consciousness of the world around us, what is the driving force behind this mechanism called the grey matter? We all may perceive the same thing differently but who is to say who is perceiving it wrong and who is perceiving it correctly? This GID thing and transsexualism I didn't know anything about until only just ten years ago, but yet it drove me and forced me to go in a direction that truly terrified me. I was driven to the point I was suicidal, until I learned what it was and that reduced the fear greatly, I knew the name of the critter that bit me.

I beleive you will find that psychologically any sentient thinking human beings will fear more what the possible symptoms of a disease might be then to actually know what the name of that beast is. Once you know the beast you know what you are confronted with and you arm yourself with the proper weapons to do battle. Same with GID. Someone in this thread earlier said that it is not a choice, "may I kiss your feet my dear madam!" and may I say "A LA LOUYA!" amen to that. who in their right minds would willingly choose to go our rout if they had another alternative. GID pushed me relentlessly out of the closet, then out unto the street and tantalised and haunted me until I went full time then relentlessly continued until I surrendered and said "yes, I will fight this beast no more!"

If I didn't want to die and I didn't have the stamina left to fight anymore, so I finished the journey by finding myself on the operating table with a nice surgeon looking down at me and when I came to I was as complete a woman as medical science could make me. You know, I've heard it said on different occasions on these forums, "it takes a lot of balls to be a woman." But I think that should be the other way around, are you willing to part with your male appendages to be a woman? But it does take lots of guts to get through this journey, It could be likened to a battle, and the battle field is in the mind. The one who comes out of this battle is the victor, and this victor is  just as much a heroic lady, as the warrior princes standing high on a mountain holding up her light saber. She put her life on the line to save another, in this case, her own life. I am proud to be a woman and I am proud to be who I am. A little woman with a big heart.

Cindy

     

 I Haven't personally been witness to any army organization influencing someone that much.. but
It's not just the marine corps, we've been brainwashing our own selves since the day we were born. And many things have had a hand in this, including society. Have you ever snapped out of your routine and ask yourself : "..why the ->-bleeped-<- am I doing this?" or try to figure out why you've associated certain feelings to certain events or thought patterns?  We've been programming our processes subconsciously for as long as we've been human, but not everyone has noticed just to what extent.. and it's possible to deprogram yourself as well, it's just hard, really hard, to the point where you think you don't have the choice or the will power to do so.

Things are Never like they seem, they are only how you yourself perceive them.

...I can't read anyone's mind so there's no way of me knowing for sure, but I highly doubt that there's any case where someone has 'no choice', though thinking so may help isolate any 'believed' solution.. but that 'solution' will work, as long as you believe it will. Most don't realize just how powerful the power of belief is... I've seen it do so many 'miraculous' things, things I thought couldn't be done without serious conditioning or brainwashing like you guys talked about.
If you believe, you can deprogram or program, create new conditions for your own mind's processes instantly. I've seen it done, I've experienced it myself, and am still under its mercy. I become better at conditioning my mind everyday though, and believe it's possible for me to condition myself to being perfectly fine without transitioning whatsoever. Though I've struggled doing this..I do think I've been neglecting the speeding up of this process through other means, and I think I've come up with new ideas thanks some of the ways of this community.
Struggling with something can become so painful though.. I think any way you can find to stop it is fine as long as you're ok with the consequences.

Quote from: Saraloop on October 21, 2008, 10:33:39 AM
If you believe, you can deprogram or program, create new conditions for your own mind's processes instantly. I've seen it done, I've experienced it myself, and am still under its mercy. I become better at conditioning my mind everyday though, and believe it's possible for me to condition myself to being perfectly fine without transitioning whatsoever...

Oh, my mind is a playground for my self. I believe in things by choice, not from so-called evidence. Because of that though, my beliefs are totally my responsibility. What they are, how they work, what they look like and what they "make" me... is a product of my choices.

So I TRY to choose well. I TRY to choose beliefs for their beauty and poetry. In fact, I'm somewhat compelled to. If there's anything I DON'T seem to have a choice about, it's in my method of choosing. And that method revolves around a sense of destiny or Fate, of trying to sense, find and walk through the story chapters of my life that I've already written for myself. I'm following bread crumbs

So could I have chosen to accept and deal with NOT transitioning? Knowing myself, yes... quite possibly. But in my quirky personal system of ethics, that would have been an "ugly" choice. There's no poetry in it, no sense of destiny or Fate. And I've been at this so long, I'm "conditioned" to choose this way. I crossed a threshold somewhere, and now I HAVE to choose this way.

And sure, maybe even that is just justifying my choice to do it. But I don't care anymore, lol... as it WORKS for me. Not transitioning = a blah, meaningless and bland life off my "bliss," as Joe Campbell might have said. Transitioning = the whole world throwing roses at my feet, resonating with meaning and beauty (tragic or otherwise).

What more could I ask for?

~Kate~

Quote from: Saraloop on October 20, 2008, 07:12:55 PM
weird how this turned around to become about me.. but I do have alot of unanswered questions about myself too.. maybe I need alot more soul searching.

It's been "about you" since you began the thread and others have made it about them as well.

That is normal human response. It's always about ourselves whether we know it or not. Just as Lisa intimated in her discussion of how cissexuals "naturally" perceive their sex without any disturbing dealings with incongruity.

How often do you contemplate the air you breathe or why the sun is just so to allow life on the planet? When you're struggling to work or feed yourself you just do it, beathe and live, and go about the struggle. Arcane thoughts don't ripple through the fabric of your brain.

Yes, perhaps the questioning of the self rather than of the other is exactly the way to go.

Nichole

Brilliant! I love the way Kate put it. But of course we all have our own trail of bread crumbs to follow, just be sure to side step the logs and the gopher holes. I think that those are things our minds become trained to be watchful fore after barking ones shins on them often enough.

Mommy bird can only show you the concept of how to fly but when she pushes you out of the nest you better start flapping those wings and hope you can get the hang of flying before you hit the ground below. Such is life if this is what is meant by programing or brainwashing our own minds. So we replace one concept for another as we go while trying to avoid all those logs and gopher holes in ones life.

Cindy

Sarahloop -

You exhibit a number of Aspie traits, and it appears that you've decided to expound a solipsist theory of the universe today.

Are you playing, or are you honestly seeking to understand?

Understand, I am an Aspie, so I'm not saying it as a negative, and that has complicated my GID more then a bit, because I don't really see Gender when I look at other people. I evaluate people on an individual basis, but when it came to my own body..... I just know on some intrinsic level that it's not right. I can't explain it.

Solipsism might be a bit unfair, but you are preaching the genderqueer manifesto to some extent. Everyone's gender experience is different, just like everyones sexual experience is different. As has been said by others, I agree with the Genderqueers on the belief that much of Gender is a social construct, but this goes deeper then then the social aspects of gender, it is about having a birth defect that gave me a female brain (albeit an aspie one) in a male body. Some people are able to quell the dissonance this creates with crossdressing, or possibly drag performance, some people feel it more profoundly, and need to transition their bodies in order to feel comfortable in them and go on existing in society.

I reached a breaking point. I had completely withdrawn from society, I worked from home on-call attached to a pager - I never left the house, and if I wasn't working, I was playing World of Warcraft. I got 0 exercise, I ate horribly, and my sleeping pattern was erratic and problematic. (I gave myself sleep apnea through the massive weight gain.) I had made a subconscious decision to withdraw from a world that didn't see me as who I am, and instead choose to live entirely in a fantasy world. I decided to quit smoking simply because of the cheaper health insurance, and I tried Chantix. To say I had a nervous breakdown is putting it mildly. I became depressed, had suicidal ideation constantly, and tried to convince my family to let me go. Even after I stopped the Chantix, this depression persisted, and my work sent me to a counselor. I started slowly peeling back the layers of walls that I had built, and came back to the point where I'd stopped growing emotionally and mentally - sitting on my parent's bed talking to my Mom at 12 and telling her I needed to be a girl.... the horrible reaction of my Father, and the beginning of all my walls being built. 

I realized that I had been killing myself slowly the entire time. Deliberately neglecting my body so that it would eventually stop functioning and I could stop this dissonance. I resented being alive if it meant I had to live as a man. At that point, I weighed 380 pounds, had high blood pressure, horribly low vitamin D levels from getting no sun, and could barely make it around the block without wheezing. It came to a decision at that point - to get it over with now instead of this slow painful slide into death, or to go through with it and have a chance to actually live. I chose life, that was about 6 months ago.

I now walk 2 miles every morning, 4 on weekends, I do a morning regimen of situps, pushups and a couple yoga poses. I want to get up in the morning knowing that today is one day closer to my goal of being a woman. I've started Laser treatments to remove the hair, I'm on low doses of estrogen under the care of an endo, slowly working my way up, and I've lost 40 pounds, with the eventual goal of making it down to 220 so I can get the surgery.

My gender meant everything to me. It defines who I am in my own mind. It defines how I think, and being told constantly by the world around me that I was the opposite of who and what I knew I was caused me to completely withdraw.

Does that mean that I wear make up and dresses? No. I own one skirt and it makes me feel too vulnerable. I was before, and will be post transition, a bit gender-neutral in my mannerisms and dress.... but I'll know I have the right hormones inside me, and a close approximation of the right body parts, and I will know that I'm a woman.

Just because your gendered experience hasn't been strong, doesn't mean that other people don't experience it. Whether it be heavily in line with the gender you were assigned at birth, or just completely out of sync with it, enough people have a strong gendered experience and a strong gender identity that drives their interactions with and understanding of the world.

I like where the topic's gone. I also liked the way Kate put it as well.

I may have been fixated a bit too much on certain aspects of the topic while discussing with you guys for the last few days and I think I do have an unorthodox view on things compared to others, .. but I definitely don't have AS, flutter, though I may share a few characteristics. As for my slight Solipsism views, I think they've developed throughout the last years... but it's not something I really believe... it's sortof just in the back of my mind as a logical possibility for many things.
As for your story, I can relate a bit, I went through depression on and off for the last 3 or 4 years and have been pretty socially withdrawn. Things have changed now though.

I understand that most people have some sort of gendered experience, which is why I'm left in the dark in many situations and want to make sense out of it. If I can't then fine.. I'll just be clueless alot of times is all.

If I look it from a purely neutral way, staying away from feelings or emotions, what am I left with when thinking about gender? ... not much.  I know that many things are 'classified' as one or the other, that some people associate themselves to those classifications, and that expectations are built upon those classifications.. but apart from that, what's the purpose behind it?  Some people have certain characteristics, traits, tendencies.. but everyone is different.. there is no use for those classifications or expectations.
Then, If I take my feelings into account, I notice that I have feelings or desires for behaving or acting certain ways, ways that do not follow the mentioned expectations, and brings about consequences, which in turn instills fear, as well as other negative feelings. I can either change my body, transition, to demand a different set of expectations, or change my mind, eliminate my fear of the consequences, and live free from either set of expectations . The logical choice seems to be the latter... but also the harder one.

So not only is the whole concept causing great torment, but to me, seems to have no purpose as well. The expectations are what cause so much torment, it's something to fight against.. and I'm sure most of you agree. What you maybe wouldn't agree with is destroying the concept of 'gender roles' which seems to be at the root of these expectations.
And actually now that I think about it,.. I probably have quite a bit of hate built up for the concept of gender roles.


ps - sorry if some of my posts sound like a repeat; I like to re-word my thoughts sometimes.