You're basically espousing queer theory.

I suggest you look into the Genderqueer movement.

However, saying that *ALL* gendered expression is created by society is a gross misunderstanding and mistake.

Now that I've taken the time to go back and read this entire thread (which I admit I should have done before posting) I'm going to re-recommend you get Julia Serrano's Whipping Girl, and additionally recommend Kate Bornstein's Gender Outlaws.

I think Serrano's work is the most relevant here, because a couple of sections of her book address directly how the queer agenda and "Gender as Social Construct" model is damaging to transsexuals and denies the validity of our experience.

Let me ask you this -

If you could choose today to live the rest of your life in your current body, or in the other gender - which would you do?

Have you ever snapped out of your routine and ask yourself : "..why the ->-bleeped-<- am I doing this?"

As David Byrne once wrote:
And you may find yourself living in a shotgun shack
And you may find yourself in another part of the world
And you may find yourself behind the wheel of a large automobile
And you may find yourself in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife
And you may ask yourself-well...how did I get here?

Well, I'm sure that there was some Roman solider up on the frontier of Germanica in the middle of winter asking himself that same question.

Who knows?  I've met a lot of people who thought they knew, but they didn't.

Some questions are never answered.  Perhaps there are no answers for them.

Back in 1979, in San Diego, a 16 year old girl opened fire from her living room on an elementary school.  She wounded nine and killed two.  When she was caught, and asked "WHY" her response was, "I don't like Mondays."

Later, Bob Geldolf of the Boomtown Rats would write a song about it where he said:
And he can see no reasons
'Cos there are no reasons
What reason do you need to die?

And perhaps that's it.  This is no reason.  There are no reasons.  It's just part of life and death.  Everyone has things they have to work out or work through, all this just might be yours.

Quote from: Saraloop on October 21, 2008, 10:33:39 AM
...I can't read anyone's mind so there's no way of me knowing for sure, but I highly doubt that there's any case where someone has 'no choice', though thinking so may help isolate any 'believed' solution.. but that 'solution' will work, as long as you believe it will. Most don't realize just how powerful the power of belief is... I've seen it do so many 'miraculous' things, things I thought couldn't be done without serious conditioning or brainwashing like you guys talked about.
If you believe, you can deprogram or program, create new conditions for your own mind's processes instantly. I've seen it done, I've experienced it myself, and am still under its mercy. I become better at conditioning my mind everyday though, and believe it's possible for me to condition myself to being perfectly fine without transitioning whatsoever. Though I've struggled doing this..I do think I've been neglecting the speeding up of this process through other means, and I think I've come up with new ideas thanks some of the ways of this community.
Struggling with something can become so painful though.. I think any way you can find to stop it is fine as long as you're ok with the consequences.

I think it should be clear that when people say they have no choice, what they mean is that the other options are either untenable or impossible for them. I would say I had no choice but to transition, but that's because I was spending all my energy dealing with my dysphoria for the year before I started hormones, and the number of times I attempted suicide when I thought transition might not ever be possible. I could have chosen to not transition, but odds are that if I hadn't, I'd now be dead or at least extremely depressed and unhappy.

Also, I don't think it's possible to will away the dysphoria. I don't think it's possible to program it away. Everything's been tried on trans people from therapy to outright torture, and it just doesn't work.

 Not seriously, What we would need is to have alot of children raised individually by some robots or something on some distant island, untouched by society, and see what characteristics and behavior they each sex tend to have most of.. that's one of the only ways we could truly get a feel for the differences between each gender
Would girls really become nesting and caring without raising babies, or passive without men around to control them? Would men not seek to control or oppress when unaware of physical superiority by comparison ? It'd be really interesting to know.. but unfortunately would be unethical.

Quote from: flutter on October 21, 2008, 05:33:26 PM
You're basically espousing queer theory.

I suggest you look into the Genderqueer movement.

I just checked the definition for Genderqueer : "Genderqueer and intergender are catchall terms for gender identities other than man and woman. People who identify as genderqueer may think of themselves as being both male and female, as being neither male nor female, or as falling completely outside the gender binary. Some wish to have certain features of the opposite sex and not all characteristics; others want it all. The term may apply to appearance, social behavior or a combination of the two"

..That's pretty cool Definitely something I should look into.

QuoteIf you could choose today to live the rest of your life in your current body, or in the other gender - which would you do?

Well, although I guess I am indeed genderqueer. If I only had those 2 choices, I would definitely change my body's sex... it would make things a lot easier.
But in reality, I don't know what would be my true ideal..  it would have no sexual organs and no body hair for sure.. and other stuff..

QuoteAlso, I don't think it's possible to will away the dysphoria. I don't think it's possible to program it away. Everything's been tried on trans people from therapy to outright torture, and it just doesn't work.

It depends on how strong the dysphoria is I guess... and perhaps it IS close to impossible, but I'd like to think that there's always a possibility, be it so small that it most likely can't even come close..


..

and tekla, looks like you like philosophy as well

Quote from: Saraloop on October 21, 2008, 06:17:06 PM
It depends on how strong the dysphoria is I guess... and perhaps it IS close to impossible, but I'd like to think that there's always a possibility, be it so small that it most likely can't even come close..

Why is it important that there be a possibility? I mean, would you tell a person with diabetes that there's a chance she could will away her diabetes?

Kenneth Zucker believes he can use reparative/conversion therapy on trans children to convince them to not transition. Every story I've heard about these kids (and into adulthood in some cases) shows that this therapy has had a traumatic effect on their lives. One person abhors the idea of transitioning, but is alcholic and cuts hirself regularly, for example.

In what way would transitioning gender make your life easier if you wish to have no genitals?

May I ask what your birth gender is?

And before you dive completely into the Genderqueer movement, read Julia Serrano, you need a touch more skepticism of gender as social construct before you expose yourself to them.

QuoteWhy is it important that there be a possibility?

Some people are able to control their heartbeat. Some Chinese aura masters are able to augment their body heat at will, and not just slightly. What if someone could tap into their mind so deeply that they could control their body on a cellular level? Pretty far fetched but doesn't mean it's impossible, ..and doesn't mean it's the way to go either, but it's still a possibility.

QuoteIn what way would transitioning gender make your life easier if you wish to have no genitals?

May I ask what your birth gender is?

Easier as in I wouldn't be expected to act within a gender role.

I was sort of keeping it a mystery,  but fine, here's a big hint; If I had to choose between 1 sex or the other, the one I would choose over my current one is bound by fewer expectations from society regarding both gender and age.

Well that's enough about me.

I'll definitely try to see if I can find that book you're recommending me. Not sure where to find it though.

http://www.amazon.com/Whipping-Girl-Transsexual-Scapegoating-Femininity/dp/1580051545/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1224644107&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Gender-Outlaw-Men-Women-Rest/dp/0679757015/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c

I fervently pray that Mr Tin god Kenneth Zucker and followers would wake up in the morning with a good case of GID. Wayyyyyy, better karma than a bad case of crotch crickets.

Cindy

In the rush to have all of this worked out via therapy and psychology, and demanding it be paid for by others (insurance) you pretty much built this monster.  So rather than pray to some invisible pal in the sky, try working to discount his research and findings based on scientific results rather than name calling, which only plays into his hands. 

The better solution is to get rid of GID and drop it from the DSM once and for all.

Quote from: tekla on October 21, 2008, 11:51:15 PM
In the rush to have all of this worked out via therapy and psychology, and demanding it be paid for by others (insurance) you pretty much built this monster.  So rather than pray to some invisible pal in the sky, try working to discount his research and findings based on scientific results rather than name calling, which only plays into his hands. 

The better solution is to get rid of GID and drop it from the DSM once and for all.

If it's dropped off the DSM, will it *ever* be covered by insurance?

That's my primary concern with that debate.

Quote from: tekla on October 21, 2008, 11:51:15 PM
In the rush to have all of this worked out via therapy and psychology, and demanding it be paid for by others (insurance) you pretty much built this monster.  So rather than pray to some invisible pal in the sky, try working to discount his research and findings based on scientific results rather than name calling, which only plays into his hands. 

The better solution is to get rid of GID and drop it from the DSM once and for all.

Er, what?

I think you're confusing actions taken by the psychiatric community with actions taken by the trans community. Were trans people agitating to be labeled with a mental disability for being trans back in the 70s?

And all else considered, given how bad being trans can be pre-transition, it should be covered by insurance.

That doesn't mean that Zucker's science isn't demonstrably bad. That doesn't mean that most of the gender specialists at CAMH don't suck. Trans people are not responsible for the fact that some members of the psychiatric profession choose to misrepresent who we are and abuse us as a group.

That's the coin statement right there, **psychiatric profession choose to misrepresent who we are and abuse us as a group.** I am not a professional psychiatrist, I am just one of the former TS patients. .0001 of the members of the nut cases society of world's population against the psychiatric profession? Ya I may as well go pee pee on one of those psychiatrists pant leg too for all that would acomplish. 

Cindy

If it's dropped off the DSM, will it *ever* be covered by insurance?

No.  But then again, no one will ever have to cart a check to some psychologist to get a letter, and the mental health community would no longer have a veto in the deal. 

People who need such help, should seek it.  But I don't think that many do.  And its put the community in a bad place.  The gays got it dropped, so should we.  Transition should be a matter of informed consent, not medical or psychological pathology.

Great lot of good that would acomplish. Without health care insurance I would never have got as far as the first rung of the leader of transitioning on my own financial resources. What is it with you anyway Tekla, I don't like sounding aggressive or confrontational but just what is your stake in this matter? Do you intend to transition or not?

Cindy

Quote from: tekla on October 22, 2008, 01:16:58 AM
If it's dropped off the DSM, will it *ever* be covered by insurance?

No.  But then again, no one will ever have to cart a check to some psychologist to get a letter, and the mental health community would no longer have a veto in the deal. 

People who need such help, should seek it.  But I don't think that many do.  And its put the community in a bad place.  The gays got it dropped, so should we.  Transition should be a matter of informed consent, not medical or psychological pathology.

See, I've got a problem with that.

I don't see this as elective surgery. I see this as a medical necessity.

And I did have issues to work out before I was ready for it - stripping away the layers of cultural conditioning that had kept me in the closet for so long, and dealing with overcoming the negative reactions of my family.

What you are essentially saying is transitioning should be reserved for those who can afford it, which is what we have right now, the problem is transsexuality doesn't limit itself to the wealthy. Yes, right now, we have to jump through hoops for the psychiatric community, and *THEN* pay for the process. One of them should go - but the one you're championing eliminating is the one that places a financial impetus in the way of a group that is already marginalized by society.

I think having this covered as a necessary medical procedure is *much* more important then removing the stigma of being listed in the DSM. Once transition is over, you no longer have gender dysphoria, and it should be removed from whatever list of ailments you have.

Just my $.02

Quote from: tekla on October 22, 2008, 01:16:58 AM
If it's dropped off the DSM, will it *ever* be covered by insurance?

No.  But then again, no one will ever have to cart a check to some psychologist to get a letter, and the mental health community would no longer have a veto in the deal. 

People who need such help, should seek it.  But I don't think that many do.  And its put the community in a bad place.  The gays got it dropped, so should we.  Transition should be a matter of informed consent, not medical or psychological pathology.

And this will help the many many thousands of trans people who can't afford the costs associated with transition? That it will somehow improve things for us if medical transition becomes a completely elective luxury, and not a medical necessity as it is for many of us?

The difference between being gay and being trans is that being gay doesn't require medical intervention. Being trans <em>does</em>, and lack of access to that medical intervention is probably one of the major reasons for suicide attempts among trans people. The lack of treatment itself creates comorbidities such as depression, and for that reason alone, transition-related treatments need to be recognized as medically necessary and covered by insurance.

Not that this means I agree in the least with the standards of care, and how they're designed to convince people that they don't really want to transition, or to protect doctors and surgeons from malpractice suits. Standards of care should be oriented toward patients, not gatekeepers.

Posted on: October 22, 2008, 05:34:32 pm

---

Quote from: Saraloop on October 21, 2008, 09:52:37 PM

QuoteWhy is it important that there be a possibility?

Some people are able to control their heartbeat. Some Chinese aura masters are able to augment their body heat at will, and not just slightly. What if someone could tap into their mind so deeply that they could control their body on a cellular level? Pretty far fetched but doesn't mean it's impossible, ..and doesn't mean it's the way to go either, but it's still a possibility.

If I could tap into my mind so deeply that I could control my body on a cellular level, it wouldn't be to will myself into not being trans... I mean, my trans history is a part of who I am, and is directly responsible for my identification as a woman. Why would I want to change that?

Or rather, why would trans people want to change their gender identification, but not cis people?

I also think there's a difference between altering autonomic function either consciously or because of your mental state (anxiety, for example, can affect your heartbeat, your body temperature, and other bodily functions) and explicitly removing or altering what may be fundamental aspects of your personality, or even defined to some degree by neurological structures in your brain. Does it really seem advisable to attempt psychic brain surgery?

It is possible to resist the dissonance between your subconscious sex and anatomical sex, but it is not necessarily healthy, psychologically. The psychological cost of trying to wage war against yourself in the way you describe strikes me as profoundly unhealthy.

Quote from: Lisa Harney on October 22, 2008, 05:44:26 PM
The difference between being gay and being trans is that being gay doesn't require medical intervention. Being trans <em>does</em>, and lack of access to that medical intervention is probably one of the major reasons for suicide attempts among trans people. The lack of treatment itself creates comorbidities such as depression, and for that reason alone, transition-related treatments need to be recognized as medically necessary and covered by insurance.

And a part of the issue here is that the DSM IV mixes two separate but related conditions. The first of these is the discrepancy between the physical and subconscious sex, sometimes called gender dissonance; this and the social aspects of gender identity are the main diagnostic criteria in ICD-10. In addition to these, the DSM criteria also include the resulting discomfort, or gender dysphoria.

Now, one possible view is that for someone who can deal with their gender dissonance SRS is an elective surgery, and it is only the presence of gender dysphoria that makes surgery an absolutely necessary procedure. Still, this does not mean that we need a psychiatric disorder to justify surgery -- the way I see it, it's rather similar to how some purely physical birth defects are treated: in some mild cases the person can live with the defect, but more serious ones must be corrected with surgery.

  Nfr

Quote from: Seshatneferw on October 23, 2008, 04:09:03 AM
And a part of the issue here is that the DSM IV mixes two separate but related conditions. The first of these is the discrepancy between the physical and subconscious sex, sometimes called gender dissonance; this and the social aspects of gender identity are the main diagnostic criteria in ICD-10. In addition to these, the DSM criteria also include the resulting discomfort, or gender dysphoria.

Now, one possible view is that for someone who can deal with their gender dissonance SRS is an elective surgery, and it is only the presence of gender dysphoria that makes surgery an absolutely necessary procedure. Still, this does not mean that we need a psychiatric disorder to justify surgery -- the way I see it, it's rather similar to how some purely physical birth defects are treated: in some mild cases the person can live with the defect, but more serious ones must be corrected with surgery.

A lot of stuff is listed in the DSM-IV that aren't psychiatric disorders, I think. I'd rather that being transsexual not be included in the DSM at all - but I don't think that's likely to happen after the hack job we're likely to see in the DSM-V.

My main argument is that it needs to be covered by insurance, period. People who seek SRS need it (whether they can live without it or not).

My gender identity is mostly a body identity. See, if I didn't want a male body, I'd just be a militant, somewhat masculine girl. But I identify with the male form, and honestly I can't really stand being in the female form. To feel "socially" male or female, in my opinion, is total bull->-bleeped-<--- an excuse people use to try to make their gender identity look more valid.

Now, that's my OPINION. Is that the truth? Probably not. I can be pretty closed-minded sometimes. I think that masculinity and femininity haven't got a damn thing to do with gender (butch dykes who are identified as women, femme gay men who are identified as men). So when someone says, "I like trucks and beer and sex" that doesn't necessarily make them a man. I know women who like that stuff too. Gender is more than just "feeling" that way.

I don't think I just "feel" male. I've been projecting it for a long time. Gender dysphoria is my brain's/body's way of saying something isn't right. That's more than just a feeling-- it has manifested into a sensation, a symptom. This is what makes transgender people different than a girl who says, "I want to be a boy because penises are cool and I hate my period."

Gender expression is ENTIRELY nurture. I do not believe it is nature. I think it is completely nurture. But nurture doesn't mean someone else told us to do it. We could have come to these conclusions on our own. No one told me to like masculine things. I just did. But I don't feel it was "genetic." I don't think boys genetically like boy things.