I scanned the forum looking for a post discussing my favorite author, and not finding it, I decided that it must then fall to me to bring up this great man.

Heinlein is thought of as a ground breaking science fiction author, who was the first to cross the barriers of genre and produce a modern classic novel from the Sci-fi genre. I speak, of course, of Stranger in a Strange Land. While the story of Valentine Michael Smith, as a fish out of water and a human raised by aliens and then returned, Stranger is a story anyone who has felt like an outsider at some point in their life can relate to.

What's not often discussed about Heinlein is that he was one of the first authors to bring the subject of sex change into the serious fiction arena, rather then the smut peddlers rack. In fact, the three Gender Bending charachters of Heinlein's universe lead one to believe he was well acquainted with someone who had changed genders, simply from the delicacy with which he writes about the subject.

The earliest example was All You Zombies.... which, I admit, is a bit of a ridiculous plot, and doesn't make sense from todays medical knowledge, but it was written in the 1930's. The main charachter in the novel loops back through his own life after having a sex change, and fathers himself through his earlier female self... Then kidnaps himself to be raised in the future. The possibility that he was fertile as both a male and female is attributed to having an XXY Karotype (Commonly refered to as Kleinfelters.) While the medical facts don't check, it was a short fiction intended for a pulp magazine audience, but it was groundbreaking in that it dealt with a transgender individual in a non-pornographic setting.

As Heinlein's audience grew up, so did his writing style. He stopped being subjected to strict editing by his publishing house to tailor his books to the teenage boy category, and was allowed to write full length novels dealing with adult subjects.

One of my favorite books, and the one I'm currently re-reading, is I Will Fear No Evil, the story of a rich old man who determines that if he can't take it with him, he's not going to go. Johann Sebastian Bach Smith is almost a century old, and he'd made the mistake of allowing the medical establishment hook him up to the machines that make it damn near impossible for him to die. Since the machines will keep him trapped in a miserable, painful existence for many years to come, he cooks up an elaborate scheme involving an Australian doctor who had succesfully transplanted the brains of 2 monkeys. He sets his lawyer to sign up people with his rare blood type ahead of time, so that if they are in an accident that kills the brain without killing the body, they will effectively donate the body to Johann. Well, a donor is found, and amazingly (well, the novel would have been very short otherwise) the operation is a success. Johann wakes up in the body of a 29 year old female. I won't ruin the rest of it with spoilers, if you haven't read this book, I highly suggest it to this audience. It's a fun adventure, and a dream I'm sure many of us wish could come true.

The final example of a Trans charachter in Heinlein's work is actually mostly a footnote. His early work featured prominently Andrew "Slipstick" Libby as the partner in crime of his main protagonist, Lazarus Long. Much later, he brought Andrew back, as Elizabeth - Lazarus jumped through time and recovered the corpse of Andrew to be rejuvenated using superior modern technology (Circa 4000 CE) and during the rejuv process, it was discovered Andrew was actually XXY (A bit of a recurring theme, but he went 50 years between usages, so I think we can forgive him) His doctors give him the option, and he chooses most emphatically to be Female - and Elizabeth is transformed from a mousey bookworm of a man into a vibrant, happy, and emphatic Female. The charachter recurs in The Number of the Beast and The Cat Who Walks Through Walls. It's the portrayal of Elizabeth that truly makes me feel that Robert must have at least known a Trans women, and been not only sympathetic, but very empathic with her issues.

Heinlein has many other works that are worthy of reading, and discussion, but these are the primary ones that are very relevant to this forum and are good starting points for someone who is interested in reading up on this master of the craft.

My brother turned me on to Heinlein when I was twelve. He lent me Farnham's Freehold, I Will Fear No Evil, and Time Enough for Love. I wouldn't recommend the first two for a new reader; in my opinion, neither one compares to several other true classics. Time Enough is a big sprawling book, but I used to love it. That's where many of my ideas about polyamory got their start. I love "All You Zombies..." It's the ultimate time-loop story. I was never fond of Stranger in a Strange Land, either. The first half is great. The second...meh. But I've only read the first version that was published, not the extended version that came out a number of years ago. I suppose I should pick up a copy and check it out one of these days. I can support my local sf bookstore.

I read Evil many times as a kid (it's a long, rambly book that should have been better edited, but Heinlein was sick at the time that the book was at that stage) and never made the connection with myself and my gender issues. I suppose I didn't for several reasons. First, the book is science fiction and therefore not necessarily reflective of any type of existing reality. Second, and corollary to the first, the method is a brain transplant, a procedure that is (and was) obviously not medically possible. Finally, the character went from male to female--and not because he wanted to. I'm coming at gender from the opposite direction, you might say.

And, of course, I kept my transsexual proclivities heavily compartmentalized from real life so that I wouldn't go effing insane.

I would recommend The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress for new readers. There are no sex changes, but it's one heckuva book.

Thanks for starting this thread. I wonder if anyone else here is familiar with Heinlein's work?

I'm sure there has to be some.

Moon is an amazing book, so is Time Enough - but you're right - Time Enough for Love is one you should wait until you're a thorough Heinlein fanatic to read, because it does pull a number of concepts together.

I actually usually recommend Friday as the starter Heinlein book of choice. It's fast paced, very representative of his work, fairly short, and a compelling story. It follows the exploits of a genetically engineered superhuman messenger girl as she tries to disguise herself in a society that rejects her. Anything more will be a spoiler, but it's both a coming of age, and a coming out story of sorts. It's also not attached to anything else in his universe, so you can read it and not be forced to read 5 more books to put all the pieces together.

Quote from: Arch on October 24, 2008, 01:46:03 PM
I wonder if anyone else here is familiar with Heinlein's work?

Oh golly, let's see.  I've read Glory Road probably 20 times, The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress probably 30 times, Starship Troopers 15-20 times; I read Stranger in a Strange Land when it was first published and many times since (including the uncut version).  I've read every novel Heinlein ever wrote including his first that was not published until just recently.  Just check out my signature at the bottom.

I once had the opportunity to sit and talk about Heinlein's writing with Andre Norton.  She was not fond of his later (adult) novels.

TANSTAAFL,
Beverly

His adult novels were controversial, directly because he challenged societal "norms"

He presented many different forms of viable polyamory
Said that sex wasn't sinful in and of itself
That fidelity was just something to mimic for Mrs. Grundy
Challenged the intelligence of religion
Similarly pointed out that rabid Athiesm was also an extreme notion.
Championed the concept of personal responsibilty (TANSTAAFL indeed!)
Threw the concept of incest out the window.
Allowed his female charachters to actually be *stronger* then his male ones. (And by all accounts remarkably like his wife Ginny - a female engineer in the 30's and 40's.)




And since you mentioned Starship Troopers - i both love and hate the movie. As a strict Heinlein fan who has read everything the man wrote, it's absolute crap as far as following even the basic plot of the book. When viewed as a stand-alone satire of the jingoist militaristic complex that America has become, it was brilliant.... to bad the satire was lost on the audience. The book and the movie have absolutely nothing in common, so if you start from a fresh slate with the movie, and have the cynicism necessary to really see what it's about - it's not as bad as Heinlein fan's usually say it is. I hate that it bears the name of the book, but I actually like the movie on it's own merits.

I used to love Heinlein. Haven't read him forever.

Dennis

Quote from: flutter on October 24, 2008, 01:57:36 PM
I actually usually recommend Friday as the starter Heinlein book of choice....It's also not attached to anything else in his universe, ...

Although it will certainly stand alone as a novel, Friday is a sequel to the story Gulf written at the request of John W. Campbell for the November and December, 1949 issues of "Astounding Magazine".  It is the story of Friday's genetic parents.  Personally, I think it enhances Friday to have already read Gulf.

I agree about the Starship Troopers movie.  The novel was a commentary on the citizens duty to the state (much as Moon was a commentary on the state's duty to the citizen) but the movie, other than a couple of lines quoted directly from the book was to me, just so-so.

Beverly

Quote from: BeverlyAnn on October 25, 2008, 10:14:48 AM

Quote from: flutter on October 24, 2008, 01:57:36 PM
I actually usually recommend Friday as the starter Heinlein book of choice....It's also not attached to anything else in his universe, ...

Although it will certainly stand alone as a novel, Friday is a sequel to the story Gulf written at the request of John W. Campbell for the November and December, 1949 issues of "Astounding Magazine".  It is the story of Friday's genetic parents.  Personally, I think it enhances Friday to have already read Gulf.

I agree about the Starship Troopers movie.  The novel was a commentary on the citizens duty to the state (much as Moon was a commentary on the state's duty to the citizen) but the movie, other than a couple of lines quoted directly from the book was to me, just so-so.

Beverly

I hadn't known there was a story of Friday's parents..... now I'll have to go find that story.

As I mentioned, it was called "Gulf" and was included in the 1953 anthology Assignment In Eternity which also included the short story "Legacy", one of my personal favorites of Heinlein's short stories.

Did you know?
After reading Stranger and Heinlein's description of the bed V.M. Smith was floating in, an innovative young man named Charles Hall began selling water beds?

The remote hands used in dangerous areas that mimic the motions of the person manipulating them are called Waldos after the novella Waldo in which the title character invents remote hands to help deal with his myasthenia gravis.

The movie "The Philadelphia Experiment" was loosely based on stealth technology research that Robert Heinlein, Issac Asimov, L. Ron Hubbard, E.E. "Doc" Smith and others were doing for the Navy during WWII?  During this research time, Heinlein met a WAVE lieutenant named Virginia Doris Gerstenfeld (Ginny Heinlein).

Beverly

I started out on early short stories but soon hit the harder stuff.

when i got to I Will Fear No Evil i was floored. I so wanted to have my brain transplanted into a female body. I wish.

The interracial relationships and casual bisexuality were way ahead of their time.

I read a lot of the early short stories. they are always cool.

The novels I remember are:
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Stranger in a Strange Land
Puppet Masters
Starship Troopers
Job
I Will Fear No Evil
Farnham's Freehold

I did know that the waterbed was inspired by Stranger, and that Waldo, Grok and Roz are all slang that originate in Heinlein's work.

I knew he was a civilian engineer for the military along with a host of other sci-fi writers (and that they all congregated at his place for weekend sessions to fire story ideas around) I didn't realize he met Ginny there, but it makes sense, or that bit about the Philadelphia Experiment.

Ah, my first Heinlein book was "To Sail Beyond the Sunset" actually. I wish I still had a copy handy; I've got three in storage in California, but I'm in Alaska at the moment. I've heard many Heinlein fans dismiss the book saying it was proof he went insane at the end, but to me it was the book where he seems to have held back the least.

I found Maureen to be one hell of a kindred spirit, a physical match for my self-image--the girl I was on the inside--and not to far off from my personality. It was one of the books I could not help falling into, all the weirdness aside!

Quote from: flutter on October 24, 2008, 12:03:13 PM
In fact, the three Gender Bending charachters of Heinlein's universe lead one to believe he was well acquainted with someone who had changed genders, simply from the delicacy with which he writes about the subject.

You have forgotten The Cat Who Walked Through Walls where two of Lazarus Long's fantasies are fulfilled: to allow a clone of himself to grow up naturally, and to be cloned as a woman. This was actually done with twin clones in case one did not survive gestation. The result was the characters of Laz and Lor.

I loved his stories.  His vision was something very special.

However.

He wrote like a hack.  There is a reason that other authors, with far less story, are far better remembered.

And he'd Grok that.

I was really into Heinlein when I was a teenager. The I Shall Suffer no Evil was my transitioning model. I knew I was female but in those days (1966) there was scant information for a 13yr old.
I had already come out to my parents and was basically on suicide and psycopath watch.
I was reading I shall suffer no evil, it was a bible of comfort, they thought I'd gone back to being a boy.

I agree bout Starship Trooper. I really liked the book and brought it up in discussion sessions at school. It was thought provoking. I din't agree with the tenents even at that age, BUT, it made me think about them. That to me is a good book.
I thought the movie was hilarious. I kept thinking, what do all these bugs live on? They are carnivours, they live in millions. The planets are sterile. ?.

I also liked and disliked the girl who played the original girlfriend who ended up being a pilot. Just being bitchy but she kept walking as if she had her dilator stuck up the wrong orifice. But she had a very cute face. And I'd definitly do the body swap 

Cindy James

And thaks for bringing up and interesting post. I did think Wiki had a bit of a summary.

Quote from: tekla on May 06, 2009, 01:34:14 AM
I loved his stories.  His vision was something very special.

However.

He wrote like a hack.  There is a reason that other authors, with far less story, are far better remembered.

And he'd Grok that.

I know. That hack quality makes the short stories stronger to me. somehow.  Maybe because I like the golden age stuff and most of it was pulp.

Quote from: Rebis on May 06, 2009, 01:42:03 PM
I know. That hack quality makes the short stories stronger to me. somehow.  Maybe because I like the golden age stuff and most of it was pulp.

Heinlein once wrote that "Writing is not necessarily something to be ashamed of, but do it in private and wash your hands afterwards." and "There is no way that writers can be tamed and rendered civilized or even cured. the only solution known to science is to provide the patient with an isolation room, where he can endure the acute stages in private and where food can be poked in to him with a stick."

I think old Bob knew he had a racket going and was willing to admit it.

Beverly

Heinlein had the ability to disconnect from his stories... basically, to not take himself too seriously while writing them. Thus, he was able to actually get them written! I don't know if he was as off the cuff about it as Jubal, but I have always been of the opinion that Jubal Hershaw was a caricature of himself! (Not that he didn't put a lot of himself into all of his characters!)

Quote from: tekla on May 06, 2009, 01:34:14 AM
I loved his stories.  His vision was something very special.

However.

He wrote like a hack.  There is a reason that other authors, with far less story, are far better remembered.

And he'd Grok that.

Ah. That explains why the average American is so intimately familiar with authors like Ted Sturgeon.