Wrong.........what's actually important is that now. as a direct result of this study being published, civil rights protections exist under the ADA for transsexuals.  Personally I've always been intensely curious about causality but I am an intensely curious person by nature.  What I find unbelievable is I am already reading complaints by priviledged trans ->-bleeped-<-s (not here, elsewhere) who never actually experienced losing a job, being denied one or denied housing that they are insulted by the notion that they are "disabled"........

That's selfishness to the max degree and personally I think it's to the level of insanity.  I happen to live in the real world where civil rights protections actually are important, more important than some perceived slight by some self deluded and ego inflated idiot.

I just thank the Goddess no one important listens to this sort of nonsense anymore.

Quote from: Lisa Harney on October 26, 2008, 08:58:01 PM
Oh, and it looks like it's not that significant after all:

QuoteThe longer AR gene was found in 55.4 percent of people in the transsexual group and 47.6 percent of the non-transsexual men, they wrote in an article published in Biological Psychiatry.

The study found it to be statistically significant (at p=0.04), which is the important thing.
(http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/bps/content/0800425abs)

The relatively similar percentages will mean that theres no way they could devise any sort of transsexuality genetic test from it though.  Thankfully!

Quote from: Leiandra on October 26, 2008, 06:46:09 PM
Take cancer, for example. There are innumerable different variations of the disease, multiple causes, even as far as psychosomatic, but we don't go around saying "well your cancer is the wrong type of cancer, technically we don't consider it cancer, so we're not going to operate and attempt to fix it... you can just go ahead and die." Why should this be different?

It shouldn't matter how you came to feel the way you feel. What should matter, in my opinion, is that you do, and if it's detrimental to your way of life, causing you pain and sorrow, affecting your ability to function within society, and even threatening your existence, then you should be afforded the same level of respect and consideration as anyone else presenting with the condition, no matter what initial cause brought you to that stage, physiological or psychological.

Brilliant!

This is my whole problem with the HBS argument: It seems like there is one symptom (gender dysphoria), so there must be one cause (say, BSTc), a blatant fallacy. It hurts my brain. Gender is such a complicated phenomenon, that there must be hundreds of factors that affect it, whether genetic, intrauterine, societal, environmental -- who knows?

We now find that cancer is a continuum-- why not gender?

Or, for that matter, handedness, sexuality, hair color, musical ability -- oh, never mind. We're already pretty cool with those phenomena being continuous.

~Alyssa

Quote from: jenny_ on October 27, 2008, 01:38:36 PM

Quote from: Lisa Harney on October 26, 2008, 08:58:01 PM
Oh, and it looks like it's not that significant after all:

QuoteThe longer AR gene was found in 55.4 percent of people in the transsexual group and 47.6 percent of the non-transsexual men, they wrote in an article published in Biological Psychiatry.

The study found it to be statistically significant (at p=0.04), which is the important thing.
(http://www.journals.elsevierhealth.com/periodicals/bps/content/0800425abs)

The relatively similar percentages will mean that theres no way they could devise any sort of transsexuality genetic test from it though.  Thankfully!

Based on the relative sizes of trans population vs. cis population, it means there's approximately a .06% greater chance of being trans if you have the genes.

According to one of my readers, there's a different indicator:

Quotethe AR gene polymorphism has 21 different alleles. the measured the percentages of each allele were measured in the control and trans population (i'm guessing that each allele has a different repeat length?). they then found a difference in the average repeat length of the AR gene between these two populations, where trans people had 243.2 base pairs and control had 245.1 base pairs.

however, when they split the groups up into long (&gt; 20) and short (&lt;20) AR gene repeat lengths, they found no significant difference in either population, regardless of gene length!

so, basically, we have a definate tendancy for changes in the AR gene, but god knows exactly what the mechanism is yet.

Getting back to the article...

From another news source, these researchers say that the androgen receptor in male to female transsexuals is too long.  It is found in 55.4 % of MTF transsexuals while only 47.6% in non-transsexual men.

I feel uncomfortable saying that this particular research proves a physiological link to transsexuality.  If it was closer to 100%, I would feel much better.  This may be a side effect of the real genetics.

However...!

Vilain, et al, from UCLA genetics lab did appear to find a gene in the Y chromosome that is the same in all transsexuals (MTF, I believe) they examined, and it is different than in the non-TS males.  This has previously been reported on this forum.

Basically, this appears to be the "gay-gene."  With this gene and reduced in utero hormone levels, the area of the Hypothalamus that affects sexual orientation (INAH3) resembles that of genetic women.  This has experimentally been demonstrated in animals.  Humans have the same gene and it affects our brain the same way.

Gooren, et al, found that the BSTc area of the brain, which affects gender identity, appears to behave in the same way as in Vilain's study.  This study from the Netherlands, along with Vilain's, seems much more promising in providing the physiological proof we are looking for.

After all, with these works, we might be able to get our health-care providers to provide treatment under our insurance policies.

Chaunte

Quote from: Chaunte on October 28, 2008, 08:44:07 PM
Vilain, et al, from UCLA genetics lab did appear to find a gene in the Y chromosome that is the same in all transsexuals (MTF, I believe) they examined, and it is different than in the non-TS males.  This has previously been reported on this forum.

Basically, this appears to be the "gay-gene."  With this gene and reduced in utero hormone levels, the area of the Hypothalamus that affects sexual orientation (INAH3) resembles that of genetic women.  This has experimentally been demonstrated in animals.  Humans have the same gene and it affects our brain the same way.

I apologise for being dense, but this is rather confusing... if the "gay-gene" is found in the Y-chromosome, then it's... the gene responsible for XY-chromosomed individuals being attracted to other XY chromosomed individuals? And that it was found in all the MtF transsexuals means that those women were all attracted to XY people? Is there a similar "gay-gene" that affects women with XX chromosomes?

And... if that combination of the gene and the hormone levels led to an area that resembles genetic women... that leads to two other questions:

1. Does that mean that MtF transsexuals can't be attracted to XX-chromosomed individuals?

2. How is that specific area of a gay genetic woman's brain different, I mean it must be... right?

Quote from: Leiandra on October 28, 2008, 09:08:01 PM

Is there a similar "gay-gene" that affects women with XX chromosomes?

I would assume so, but the research review I read did not talk about the XX chromosome.  I need to get the actual articles and read them for myself.

QuoteDoes that mean that MtF transsexuals can't be attracted to XX-chromosomed individuals?

I believe that they can.  There may be another genetic trigger involved that affects sexual orientation besides the ones I mentioned.  This is pretty new research.  There are a lot of unknown territories yet to be explored.

QuoteHow is that specific area of a gay genetic woman's brain different, I mean it must be... right?

Actually, it was genetic women and gay men.  The area in question is smaller than in a straight genetic male.

Research from the late '90's demonstrated that genetic man and women have the same different number of neurons.  these neurons also appear to go to different areas of the brain.  MTF transsexuals and genetic women brains are almost identical.  FTM and genetic males brains are also identical.  The research cited here is probably aimed at trying to explain these observations.  (journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism.  Vol 85.  No 5)

From all I've seen, in various news and magazine articles [reputable science magazines], scientists have not yet studied gay women's brains yet.  All they've figured out is that the sexual attraction area of gay men's brains is similar to that of straight women's, which says absolutely nothing about gay women, or bisexuals, for that matter.  I even read somewhere that all women 'appear' to be bisexual under lab experiments measuring arousal levels.  But I'm certainly not bisexual.  The research in this area has omitted so much that I find it hard to take seriously.

I'm not exactly sure how an area of the brain governing sexual orientation would have anything to do with transsexuality?  Aren't they two completely different things?

Quote from: TamTam on October 28, 2008, 09:30:09 PM
From all I've seen, in various news and magazine articles [reputable science magazines], scientists have not yet studied gay women's brains yet.  All they've figured out is that the sexual attraction area of gay men's brains is similar to that of straight women's, which says absolutely nothing about gay women, or bisexuals, for that matter.  I even read somewhere that all women 'appear' to be bisexual under lab experiments measuring arousal levels.  But I'm certainly not bisexual.  The research in this area has omitted so much that I find it hard to take seriously.

I'm not exactly sure how an area of the brain governing sexual orientation would have anything to do with transsexuality?  Aren't they two completely different things?

They are!  What is shown is that the same processes that affect sexual orientation can also affect gender identity.

the late '90's study I mentioned did include FTM transsexuals.  A FTM transsexual's brain at the BSTc (gender identity) area is identical to a typical genetic male.

I may just be reading it wrong, but that sounds dangerously close to supporting the line of 'reasoning' that says a lesbian is sort-of-like or might-as-well-be a ftm and a gay man is sort-of-like or might-as-well-be a mtf.  "Well, they're both caused by the same thing, only one is less drastic!" people will say. ::sigh::

no! no! no! no!  Not at all!

This is still brand new research.  It still has the new paper smell to it.  We don't know what the causers all are.

What I see the research saying is that a genetic variation can cause multiple responses.  At a guess, I would suggest that there are other genetic/environmental factors at play that are not covered in this research.

BTW, what I didn't mention from the '90's study is this.  Straight and gay males have idetical BSTc patterns.  So do gay and straight females.

Quote from: nooneinparticular on October 26, 2008, 03:23:59 PM
No, it does not mean that.  No doubt we will discover that a variety of factors, one genetic, can cause a female norm neurological development in a physiological male pre-natally.  What it does mean, in light of the Danish BSTc studies, the recent German studies confirming that classically transsexed women have a female norm olfactory response to phernomones and the numerous studies confirming the cognative functions of classically transsexed women also fall within female norms and lastly the confirmation by Harvard Medical that the marker for response to estrogen treatment yields results that indicate a difference between AGs and classically transsexed women that can predict post-surgical satisfaction and orgasmic response.  What it means that the transsexuality is a choice and psychological crowd is dead wrong.  Not one single study in the past fifteen years confirms their position.......every single study points towards the fact that classic transsexuality is a neurological intersexed condition.......every single study.  This issue should finally be considered decided.  Us hated HBSers win.

Can you cite the study that has a difference between "AG and classically transsexed women"? At least the discussed study has nothing to do with that distinction.

Quote from: Chaunte on October 28, 2008, 10:01:12 PM
They are!  What is shown is that the same processes that affect sexual orientation can also affect gender identity.

Emphasis on the plural.

I can't imagine that there are fewer than dozens of genetic variables, and many more (though perhaps less important) environmental effects, not to mention the social millieu, that all affect the development of sexual desire and gender identity, beyond just "gay" or "straight"; "male" or "female", but what those words really mean.

No man is an island. Except, perhaps, Paul Simon.

~Alyssa

Quote from: nooneinparticular on October 26, 2008, 03:23:59 PM
No, it does not mean that.  No doubt we will discover that a variety of factors, one genetic, can cause a female norm neurological development in a physiological male pre-natally.  What it does mean, in light of the Danish BSTc studies, the recent German studies confirming that classically transsexed women have a female norm olfactory response to phernomones and the numerous studies confirming the cognative functions of classically transsexed women also fall within female norms and lastly the confirmation by Harvard Medical that the marker for response to estrogen treatment yields results that indicate a difference between AGs and classically transsexed women that can predict post-surgical satisfaction and orgasmic response.  What it means that the transsexuality is a choice and psychological crowd is dead wrong.  Not one single study in the past fifteen years confirms their position.......every single study points towards the fact that classic transsexuality is a neurological intersexed condition.......every single study.  This issue should finally be considered decided.  Us hated HBSers win.

The emphasized part, why are you including it?

How is it relevant to the discussion?

Where is this study?

Why does this imaginary distinction you have in your head between "Classic" and "->-bleeped-<-" Transsexuals make a difference?

Quote from: Chaunte on October 28, 2008, 09:22:26 PM
Actually, it was genetic women and gay men.  The area in question is smaller than in a straight genetic male.

Research from the late '90's demonstrated that genetic man and women have the same different number of neurons.  these neurons also appear to go to different areas of the brain.  MTF transsexuals and genetic women brains are almost identical.  FTM and genetic males brains are also identical.  The research cited here is probably aimed at trying to explain these observations.  (journal of clinical endocrinology and metabolism.  Vol 85.  No 5)

Augh, "genetic man/male/woman/female" is such awful terminology.

Posted on: October 29, 2008, 07:02:07 pm

---

Quote from: TamTam on October 28, 2008, 10:10:18 PM
I may just be reading it wrong, but that sounds dangerously close to supporting the line of 'reasoning' that says a lesbian is sort-of-like or might-as-well-be a ftm and a gay man is sort-of-like or might-as-well-be a mtf.  "Well, they're both caused by the same thing, only one is less drastic!" people will say. ::sigh::

Also, Eric Vilain is known to work with people who are invested in the whole HSTS/AGTS model that Bailey and Blanchard support.

Oh, hell, he works with Bailey, Dreger, and Lawrence at the very least. It's in their interest to explicitly link being a trans woman with being a gay man.

Interesting and encouraing science news.

I do not think transsexualism is prevalently inheritable. To brain, environment may be as much important. Even 4% may not be statistically significant when considering experiment-wise comparison. Even not significant, 5 experiments among 100 experiments would show significant statistical difference, and scientists tend to publish their research only when p < 0.05.

In addition to brain, I also have had feminine and slender figure since puberty.
I would rather believe the hypothesis of birth mark and incarnation to explain my ->-bleeped-<- and feminine body features, although few will accept my theory.

http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0306987799909209


The phenomenon of claimed memories of previous lives: possible interpretations and importance . 
Medical Hypotheses , Volume 54 , Issue 4 , Pages 652 - 659
I . Stevenson

Abstract
  Several disorders or abnormalities observed in medicine and psychology are not explicable (or not fully explicable) by genetics and environmental influences, either alone or together. These include phobias and philias observed in early infancy, unusual play in childhood, homosexuality, gender identity disorder, a child's idea of having parents other than its own, differences in temperament manifested soon after birth, unusual birthmarks and their correspondence with wounds on a deceased person, unusual birth defects, and differences (physical and behavioral) between monozygotic twins. The hypothesis of previous lives can contribute to the further understanding of these phenomena.

http://www.redbubble.com/people/kirill/writing/1012847-life-after-life

Barbie~~

Quote from: barbie on November 03, 2008, 09:15:39 AM
The phenomenon of claimed memories of previous lives: possible interpretations and importance . 
Medical Hypotheses , Volume 54 , Issue 4 , Pages 652 - 659

That was an, um, interesting view on GID. Fun to read, definitely, but it's good to keep in mind what the journal says about itself:

Quote
Medical Hypotheses takes a deliberately different approach to review. Most contemporary practice tends to discriminate against radical ideas that conflict with current theory and practice. Medical Hypotheses will publish radical ideas, so long as they are coherent and clearly expressed.

It's also good to remember that since the publication of this article a few new snippets of evidence have come up that support the hypothesis that GID is closely linked to brain physiology. I'm not aware of further evidence for this reincarnation-based hypothesis, although admittedly it's 'radical' enough that I wouldn't expect too much research along those lines.

  Nfr

From the documentary, "Brain Sex," I was introduced to the extremely prevalent view among neurologists that two different areas of the brain differentiate at different times during fetal development.  One of these areas determines gender identity, and the other sexual orientation.  Two factors, hormones produced by the mother in the womb and the sensitivity of the fetus to those hormones, determine how those areas differentiate. 

They found that British women carrying babies during WW2 and subject to frequent bombings produced a greatly higher percentage of gay babies, presumably due to the stress upsetting their hormone levels.  They found that children with many older siblings tend to be gay, presumably due to either or both of the factor of age of the mother or desensitization of the mother affecting her ability to produce the sex hormones for the fetus.  They found that certain estrogen based drugs meant to assist the woman in carrying the fetus to term tended to result in MTF babies. 

So it makes perfect sense to me that there could be a "gay gene" that makes an XY person both MTF and attracted to males.  And it makes sense to me that there could be a gene for slight hormone insensitivity that, when combined with other factors like mother's age or stress or tendency to drink estrogen rich soy milk or eat androgen rich red meat, can produce a variation in gender id or sex orientation or both.  And it makes sense to me that these same things can be produced without any genes contributing.

In any case, it's all a form of intersex to me, whether just plain gay or just plain gender id variant or "both."  It's not a question of legitimacy, in my view, and inappropriate to point to people who are only gid variant and not "both" and say they are pervs.  That's just beyond acceptable, and I won't stand for it.

Quote from: Seshatneferw on November 03, 2008, 09:44:48 AM
It's also good to remember that since the publication of this article a few new snippets of evidence have come up that support the hypothesis that GID is closely linked to brain physiology. I'm not aware of further evidence for this reincarnation-based hypothesis, although admittedly it's 'radical' enough that I wouldn't expect too much research along those lines.

  Nfr

I accessed the paper. I quote a paragraph describing GID from:

Stevenson, I., 2000. The phenomenon of claimed memories of previous lives: possible interpretations and importance. Medical Hypotheses 54, 652-659.

Quote"Gender identity disorder

Gender identity disorder (also known as gender dysphoria), like homosexuality, has been attributed to parental influences early in life (40). There is, however, no evidence that this condition is caused by environmental factors. Also like homosexuality a biological factor, such as Klinefelter's syndrome, has been implicated in some cases, but not found in others (41). Statements of patients have perhaps little probative value in questions of etiology. Nevertheless, it is worth mentioning that three persons who had sex reassignment surgery whose experiences they or a parent subsequently reported in popular publications did not inculpate their parents as in any way responsible for the conviction they had had, from their earliest years, that they were somehow in a body of the wrong sex (42–44). None of these three persons claimed to remember a previous life. I have been consulted by two other persons who wished sexual reassignment surgery, and they also were sure their parents had nothing to do with their gender dysphoria. They conjectured that their strong gender preference might have derived from a previous life, although they had no memories of one. Their explanation for their conditions seemed plausible, but remained without any confirmation."

References:
40. Green R. Sexual Identity Conflict in Children and Adults. New York: Basic Books, 1974.
41. Baker H. J., Stoller R. J. Can a biological force contribute to gender identity? Am J Psychiatry 1968; 124: 1653–1658.
42. Anonymous. My daughter changed sex. Good Housekeeping 1973; May: 87–158.
43. Martino M. Emergence: a Transsexual Autobiography. New York: Crown Publishers, 1977.
44. Morris J. Conundrum. London: Faber and Faber, 1974.

Not so much research on this matter. No person remembered his/her past lives.

Barbie~~