I have been full-time for about four point five years and I still worry about passing every time I am in public.  I constantly feel like I am walking a tight rope and if I fall I will no longer exist.  And.. (it gets even better) I try to avoid any social interaction because if people get to know me someone else will eventually tell them about me.  And my "GID" or whatever you call it is only tolerable when I am not being related to as "The guy who..."

Other than my work Im am pretty much dressing these days as myself. The looks I get are really getting rarer except in the small town where I live and even here being I havent socialised or been to the Church I used to attend for over a year, people I know are walking right by me with no recognition.
Like Janet has told me on here.....Attitude! It really does make a difference when I just forget everything else and just BE myself. I am woman, pure and simple. Course, a little make up and clothes help some. 

I have noticed that most people are really so involved in their own lives that they really dont pay much attention to whats going on around them. I dont think Im all that feminine but as been said already, women come in all shapes and sizes. I recently talked to a GG I had been engaged to many years ago and her comment to me was. "I should know you, you look somewhat familiar" I leaned forward, told her my boy name and her response was, "OMG you finally did it". Hell, I didnt ever remember us talking about it until she said that. To her and a lot of other girls that I knew that were there, they all had excepted me as another female., Including her sisters.

So, it just all takes time, just like everything else on this rollercoaster ride. And presenting or passing is just another step we go through. You will get there I think when you are ready for it.  And Kim, have you talked to a Therapist about your feelings you expressed. While you have much more time at this than I, I tend to think unless one is totally stealth or a raving beauty you will at times get read and it does shake the confidence. Hugs

Wendy

attitude is first, second, third and on and on.  you may be the most beautiful, sexy, feminine looking person in the world, but if you have not attitude....you pass only as an unsure person.

"i know i look like a girl, i know this because i look like me....and i'm a girl."  all there is to it.

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 23, 2008, 08:05:51 AM
I found I had to move forward assuming I would never pass.  Otherwise I would never have been able to get past the indecision and would have never transtitioned at all.

Me too, except the drive to transition was so overpowering, I had no choice, really.  I transitioned, and worried about the rest as it happened.  Now, though, after almost 2 yrs fulltime, I assume I ALWAYS pass, and would be surprised if I didn't.  Work on your voice.  That's probably more important than your face.  You could look like a baboon, and as long as you sounded female, you would be accepted as female, beauty or no.

Bev

hi kim.  you know, at some point you really need to move on past worrying about what you look like.  honestly, there really are so many much, much more important things in life then physical appearance.  as long as you allow yourself to worry about it you will.  but...really, in the greater scheme of things in this world...just how important is how you look?  as long as you obsess over it you will never measure up...never...nothing will ever be good enough.  and if you ever should, then you would be measuring up to something that, in the end, isn't of a lot of value.  measure up to things that are important.  measure up to how you treat the weak and the vulnerable, measure up to what you do for the poor and the disenfrancised.  measure yourself for what you do to make the world a better place against what you could be doing...those are things that matter...not whether you look like some characture you have created for what a woman should look like.

look, clean...look neat...look like you care but don't obsess.  look like you have the attutude that you are a good person...you will look very nice and that will be much better then "passing".

if you are allowing this to dictate to you what social interactions you can have or not have you've allowed it too much power.  don't be ashamed of your transsexualism, there is no reason for shame of guilt.  if people know, then they know...if you aren't hiding it they can't hurt you.  climbing out of one closet just to put up housekeeping in another really just defeats the purpose of moving out in the first place.  a closet is still a closet however you dress it up.

you are you and you are a valuable, worthwhile person with a whole infinity of more promise then what you might look like.  realize some of that potential and you will find happiness and some measure of fullfillment.  God bless with...

I can now honestly say from experience that I agree with the others: it is all in the ATTITUDE. Definitely.


Jay

Quote from: pennyjane on November 05, 2008, 07:01:29 PM
if you aren't hiding it they can't hurt you.

It's not always that simple. If you pass, you can be *perceived* as "hiding it" should someone find out somehow. With consistent passing, you unintentionally end up in a closet whether you wanted to or not.

Kate

i guess what i'm saying, kate, and i'm responding specifically to kim, is that hiding it is the problem.  being afraid to interact because someone might find out.

going about one's business without necessarily wearing a sign on your back it one thing, that's just how one cares to express their activism.  but constantly looking over your shoulder...thinking life as you know it would end if you were "found out" is destructive.  it has to be.  one can't live with that constant stress and have a very happy and fullfilled life.

this is precisely why i personally choose to wear the sign on my back.  of course not literally, but in any but the most casual of interactions i bring up that i'm ts.  i'm not landing in any closet ever again, intentionally or unintentionally.  hiding myself from the world was the single most destructive thing i have ever done with myself...it's worth the effort to see to it i never end up in that horrible place again.

the cia used to have a policy against hiring gays.  the theory was, not that there was anything wrong with being gay, but gay people were far more subject to blackmail or other negative coersive tactics then straights, because...in that day...they hid their sexual orientation away. they were easily compromised.

i kind of see us in that same light today.  if we are out, we can't be compromised...if we are in stealth we can.  not that we may ever want to work for the cia, but the premise is the same...keeping secrets that could destroy you is like walking on eggshells all the time.  wasn't that the way we lived before transition?  wasn't if just awful?  was to me.

Quote from: pennyjane on November 05, 2008, 10:07:26 PM
but constantly looking over your shoulder...thinking life as you know it would end if you were "found out" is destructive.  it has to be.  one can't live with that constant stress and have a very happy and fullfilled life.

Oh, I very, very much agree.

Kate

I may have mentioned this before elsewhere upon this board but it is worth saying again in the context of this thread.

Get your head right and the rest shall follow.

I have been 'full-time' in my female identity for nearly 3 years.  It was my decision as to the timing and was one taken without the say so of any Psychiatrist or any written 'standards' regards to any course of treatment for dysphoria.  Of course, I have spent my life in a mental state of femaleness whilst living the lie of a man's life as best as I could.

Anyway, I found that it was merely a state of attitude as I ventured transition, both my own and the attitude of other persons.  Getting my head right amounted to accepting my situation rather than worrying about it and that if other people felt the need to highlight my unique status for personal entertainment then they were simply the stuff that I occasionally tread on and is unpleasant on a hot day.

The quest to 'pass' has now become a subconcious event as my daily routine deals with simply making the effort to look as best as possible with what nature has given me ( looks etc ). I imagine that any woman would agree that they don't give a moment thought about what they do to pretty them selves because it comes naturally and is important to them for their self esteem.  Pennyjane was quite correct when she spoke of the destructive effects of constantly being in a state of apprehension, the stresses involved inevitably lead to illness hence me having had 3 strokes in recent years pre-transition.

I often get abused by people, usually teenagers that may never have a brain big enough to understand life and I have learned to grow the skin of a Rhino in order to deal with this. My usual response is to NOT respond at all, I merely stare back at them, say nothing unless challenged to speak and give no incentive for them to continue.  As with any female, it is best not to allow oneself to become isolated in a public place ( keep among other people ) because yobs hate crowds and they are not so brave. 

My psychiatrist has complained to me that he has nothing much that he can do with me and that it is now a medical therapy/treatment matter within the gender clinic because  " .....I have succeeded in getting my head right..........I have satisfied him that I can function as a woman in society......and my progress now depends upon funding for any medical interventions that may follow".

To get up on any given day and not think about passing is perhaps a good state of being and one that I am happy to relate to others although I understand that some of you are having problems.  I do not wish to gloat, to boast, to rub it in etc., I still have problems and the occasional crisis of confidence but in the main, life is so much better now that I have got on with it. 

Quote from: pennyjane on November 05, 2008, 10:07:26 PM
in any but the most casual of interactions i bring up that i'm ts...

How though? How do you work that into an ordinary conversation with someone? Don't people react negatively to that? Not to your being TS, but to your bringing the subject up outa the blue?

Time and time again, with me at least people just don't wanna know, lol. I've TRIED to talk about it, but they're just not interested. AND it makes them uncomfortable. They don't seem to want to deal with someone with "issues." They'd prefer we just pretend that I've always been an ordinary, genetic female named Kate. Fine by me, lol.

Don't get me wrong, I DO understand the urge to be out. I talked about it when I first started transitioning, when it drove me CRAZY wondering who was reading me and who wasn't. I kept thinking it'd be easier if I just wore a BORN MALE t-shirt so I'd be pre-outed and wouldn't have to wonder anymore.

But instead, I went the other direction and made myself two rules:

1) Never, ever apologize in advance for myself by "warning" someone I was TS
2) Never, ever ask anyone in hindsight if they knew I was TS, or if I'd passed with them, etc.

It wasn't easy sticking to those rules. I sooooo badly wanted to know how I was doing, if people knew, what people were seeing and thinking about me. Especially in situations like business meetings with vendors, having dinner with people we'd just met, etc. But I stuck with it, and over time the obsession began to fade, being replaced by the accumulated experience of nothing bad ever happening, leading me to realize that people either don't know or don't care... which is the same end-result for me.

IMHO, the only real way to get over the phobia about social interactions is to just DO it. Over and over, just keep going and let the accumulation of experience begin to outweigh the unfounded fears.

Kate

gosh kate....i guess we're just soooo different.  i never apologize, that would never occurr to me.  and i'm not all that interested in just anybody's idea about how i'm doing...as far a passing....i don't pass.  i am who i am.

for me i don't think about it or plan it, but my transition is such a huge part of my life and is so recent that almost everything relates to it.  i find people very interested in talking about it with me.  i guess it's because i find it so interesting and i'm so excited about how life is going for me that i want to share the wonder and beauty of it all.

for me...something like happened today when i was fishing around in my purse for something over at wally world.  the saleslady brought up how she's always losing things in hers as well....that took me immediately to telling the story of my first purse some five years ago.  about how i can't believe i lived for 50 some odd years without ever carrying a purse and how i just don't see how i could make it without one now.  we both laughed and enjoyed our chat while i found my wallet, paid my bill and smiled on off.

the truth is....and you'd never know it from these forums...but the vast majority of people i meet truly like me.  i'm a very happy, bubbly person.  i come off as real...authentic...alive and loving it.  i'm very positive and people like that....not that i'm transsexual but that i seem to like being who i am and i like people.  the fact is....i don't pay lip service to not being ashamed of who i am...i really, REALLY am not ashamed of it.  it's me...i like me....i've become a kind and loving person...i live in the real world and i am in love with it.  i can laugh at myself....not just for affect...but because i find many of the things i've done and some of the situations i've gotten myself into funny.  when my skirt fell off of me in the kroger parking lot.....it was halarious then and it's halarious now.   poopy happens...it happens to me too.  the world didn't end, life went right on...the sun kept shining and we all had a good laugh.  that's life, it's just too dang nice to let it get you down.

i care about other people.  i don't just say it to make myself look good, i care!  i care when i see people here behaving in destructive ways.  i have a passion for sharing this happiness of mine with them.  i don't tell people to face reality because i want to pick on anyone, i do it because it WORKS.  i have found my reality to be a thousandfold better then any fantasy i ever had.  i have learned to not just accept who i am, to tolerate my fate...but to love it, to embrace it...it's wonderful!

if you can't be comfortable in your own skin then it don't matter how you dress yourself up, you won't be comfortable in that either.

there are people in this group who have been out with me.  ask them how my interactions go.....i meet everyone i possibly can and i share the love and beauty i see in the world with them....and i get good back.  i run across more people who know and LIKE me in just one of my everydays now then i ever even knew before transition.  before nobody knew ME, so how could they have liked ME?  they knew the illusion, the facade, i put up and they may or may not have liked that...but it wasn't ME.  now people meet ME.  they either like or dislike ME.

i'm not nearly as "in your face" as it may seem here.  but folks here are soooooo introverted, to the standard i seem way out there.  i'm not really, i'm just a down home girl living a pretty good life, having lots of friends and trying to share what has put me here.  facing up to the truth, leaving fantasy for play, and truly, truly not being ashamed of myself is the key.  we all say it, but it's clear to me that believing it is not very prevelant.

i have been very blessed.  not with looks!  heavens no!  if i had to make it on looks i'd starve to death.  but i've been blessed with finding achievable goals that can make me happy.  not pie in the sky, what i can actually do....not fantasize about.  i'm not particularily smart and i'm about as uneducated as a person can get.  i'm flat broke and no potential for ever overcoming that.  but, God....i love life...i love every minute of it and i am soooooooo greatful for what God has given me.  for me it would be humiliating to whine and fuss over what i haven't got, how i'll never look as good as i like, how i'll never have the money to do this or that...i've got way too much for that.  and you wanna know what?  so does everyone else around here, all they gotta do is see it and grab for it.  i guess what it comes down to is i have HOPE.  if one has hope she has the world by the tail.  so i'll end by asking God to bless us all, each and everyone of us with much love and HOPE.  pj 

The best thing I ever did for myself was to get rid of the wig.  My new hair system looks and feels like it is my own non existing hair.  And everyone says that they love my hair.  And most know that I am hair challenged.

Once again it is the attitude and my hair is just one more brick in the wall of attitude.  Now when someone mentions 'passing' I ether think of driving or football.

Quote from: pennyjane on November 06, 2008, 08:26:50 PM
gosh kate....i guess we're just soooo different...

Well I 'spose it's just that our post-transition circumstances and experiences are different, so we adapted differently to them.

Which is why you and I have to be careful - as do those reading our suggestions - since what works for us may lead someone else off a cliff. If you took my approach of never, ever mentioning TSism, I can see where that might create awkward situations for you - not to mention preventing you from sharing your joy and wonderful life experiences with others.

On the other hand, if I brought up TSism with people I meet daily, my day would be filled with awkward "coming out" moments of confusing the heck out of people, and leaving them feeling uncomfortable, wondering why I mentioned it at all.

I guess we all develop strategies depending on our particular experiences with the public. For someone who doesn't pass and gets abused now and then, maybe a thick skin works best. Or maybe your idea of being even MORE open about it would help by showing others that WE'RE comfortable with ourselves... and hopefully they will be then too.

But passing brings with it problems as well. One worries that if someone we're close to (flatmates, romantic partners, friends, etc.) figures us out, they're going to resent not being told. Not because being TS is shameful, but just because people get hurt when friends don't trust one another enough to share important things about themselves.

So I don't think people are necessarily living in "pie in the sky" fantasies just because they have different inner narratives or coping techniques than us. We're all products of our environments, both inner and outer, so no two will ever be quite the same. My "real world" may seem like fantasy to you, but for me... well, it works well. We just all have to find our own particular path to happiness through all this, regardless of how "crazy" it may seem to others, and not let others impose their "true reality" upon our own.

Kate

ok, kate...now you are confusing me.  just recently you were telling me about how fragile you are....how your whole world could come tumbling down at just any moment if someone found out about your reality.....now you are telling me how well it all works for you.  i think this is what happens when we confuse fantasy with reality...we just never know what's what, you lose your points of reference in the real world.

if you have to walk on eggshells, constantly worried about being found out.  if when people like myself talk about reality, it drives you to the edge, then honey...it ain't working all that well.

if your approach were working all that well for you, then you wouldn't be trying to lay this guilt trip on me about how my words in an on line forum might drive you over the edge and push you into suicide.

i don't think you are being fair at all.  i asked you, if this is true, that you really are so fragile that what i write can be that harmful to you please put me on ignore.  i have no desire to harm anyone, i'm just about helping those who can be helped by what i have to offer.  there are many dear...i've found many who have been uplifted by my positive account of my world.  if it's pushing you over the edge, then i think the empitus is on you to avoid my posts.  why should those who are being helped by my posts be denied because you refuse to face reality?  you have options that you can be in control of, why are you laying it on me?

i don't think that rendering every concept down to the lowest common denominator is of any value....who learns from that?  if we can't state concepts that work for fear that it might not work for someone, then what's the point of all of this?  is this to be no more then a place where we all just wallow in our victimization?  it interaction to be relagated to the "oh, you poor baby" thing....or should we be allowed to help?

the concept of trust that you bring up is very valid.  it's just exactly why those eggshells get destributed all over the floor.  the very fact that people have not been "trusted" with one's real past creates more difficulties in relationships then does the reality of the past itself.  one approach, one i've found very successful, is to eliminate that possiblity by trusting my friends and those close to me with the facts.  that works.  that renders impotent the very concept you state is so ruinous to people.  perhaps you persoanally are so insecure that this would never work for you, i'm sorry for you....but should that mean i can suggest it to others?  the only alternative you suggest is to just keep ducking, bobbing an weaving and hope the house of cards never falls in on you.  i prefer a more proactive approach.  i find people respect me for the trust i demonstrate in them and in that they very often trust me more.

there is not a one size fits all solution to all the world's problems.  some react this way and some that way.  i would never presume to tell you how you should share with others, that's your choice.  i don't think it is fair for you to keep admonishing me for my perspective.  it's valid, it works and it is worthy of sharing.  that's about all i can say to you, i've laid it out as clearly as i can, if you still can't understand it, then please....just forget it and move on....see what you can find that will work for you and share that.  i promise, i won't tell you to stop it!

God bless with...

Quote from: JENNIFER on November 06, 2008, 01:54:45 PMMy usual response is to NOT respond at all, I merely stare back at them, say nothing unless challenged to speak and give no incentive for them to continue.

Don't forget to smile, it makes a HUGE difference.

oh yes, melissa....smiling is the most disarming thing you can do.  genuine smiles are utterly disarming.  i think it's almost impossible for a human being to respond negatively to a real, honest, genuine smile.

God bless with...

[/quote]



It wasn't easy sticking to those rules. I sooooo badly wanted to know how I was doing, if people knew, what people were seeing and thinking about me. Especially in situations like business meetings with vendors, having dinner with people we'd just met, etc. But I stuck with it, and over time the obsession began to fade, being replaced by the accumulated experience of nothing bad ever happening, leading me to realize that people either don't know or don't care... which is the same end-result for me.


[/quote]

Thanks Kate, this is where I am at the moment, been living full time for about 5 months and I nearly always worry how people are reading me. 90% of the time seems to be the mark with only the occasional  glance or comment. I am trying to ignore the comments internally and I just usually smile at them.

I think you just have to get on in life and I am sure because of the awareness of transsexualism in the public domain these days people will now ask themselves is that a man or women if they look slightly more mannish. I am sure GG's get it too. In fact I was on holiday in July and I was almost convinced a woman on the same trip was TS turned out to be a GG when we got talking (no I didn't ask I could tell by talking to her). So just think about those GG to who may be in the same boat as ourselves through mother nature.

Hugs

Stardust   

For myself I started out on Hrt, letting my hair grow out and just dressed andro. I just kind of eased into the female clothes a little at a time mixing and matching as I felt comfortable. When I felt ready for the make up I did that too and have to laugh at my first attempts, it was pretty sad.

I always knew that given a chance to transition, it would be Katy bar the door and it would take more than horses to hold me back so I developed an attitude of If I cant be feminine, than I'll just be the ugliest female in the world. It has allowed me to smile even bigger at someone who clocks me, which in turn usually causes them more discomfort than it does me.

But honestly, does it bother me? Of course, Im still human and have emotions. What I have learned here though is the word ATTITUDE!!! (thank you Janet) And it does make a difference when you present to the world, that and believing you are who you wish to be. I will say that I have yet to be stared at or run out of a female restroom and I think that for the older gals like me, the blending is a little easer, the same as it is for the youngest ones. And it gets easier everytime you go out.

As for patterning or mirroring I am fortunate to work in a Medical Ctr, so I have the oppurtunity to see countless women and observe how they dress and relate to people. Since I have started transitioning, its almost like I hung a sign over my head thats says "Hey, Im safe to talk to and Im friendly", instead of the old me that said "Back off-danger". Both men and woman seem to engage me in conversations. And I do smile now and talk much more. So passing comes in its own time when you are ready I think. Hugs

Wendy

It is a matter of life and part of human nature to doubt, question, and experiment. It is a matter of social conditioning to feel guilt and shame for things that others think are unacceptable. That said, the ideal world is ideal but the real world is less so and sometimes much more difficult. What to do? Accept onesself first. Do the best you can with what you have. Realize that we make oueselves good people by being and doing good things not by torturing ourselves, feeling guilt over this, or by always living in that "closet".
Looking good and being a good person are not always the same. I prefer to be decent and good regardless where I am or how fancy my dress happens to be.