Susan's Place Logo

News:

Please be sure to review The Site terms of service, and rules to live by

Main Menu

On forgiveness

Started by Aurelius, November 07, 2008, 07:34:53 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Aurelius

Some of you may have read this book, and I'm only writing from memory, and don't even remember the name. But a very good moral question about forgiveness.

When Simon Weisenthal was in a concentration camp, he was assigned to a work detail clearing rubble from a building being used as a hospital in Poland. While he was there, he was summoned by a German nurse into a small room where a German soldier, not only a Nazi but Waffen SS, lay dying from massive burns.

It was the soldier's last request that he talk to a Jew to ask for forgiveness. Weisenthal had not only spent the past few years in a concentration camp with the every second fear that he will be killed, but his entire family and all his friends and almost everyone he ever knew or loved had already been killed. He had no idea if he would ever survive, or this would ever end. Now, a member of the same regime that was doing its best to not only kill him, but wipe him and all his people from existence, was asking for forgiveness.

The soldier's reasons were, he had been raised in the Catholic church, was an alter boy, and had been taught that these things were horribly wrong and a moral travesty in the eyes of God. While he was in Russia, him and his unit surrounded a building that was full of Jews...they set it on fire, and started shooting the men, women, and children that tried to escape, some of whom were on fire. He participated in this, and it haunted him ever since. He had known these things were wrong, and was a thinking human being with a conscience...but he did it anyways. He was sincerely sorry, admitted he deserved hell, but hell or not wanted forgiveness from the very same people he trangressed against.

I can certainly understand the feeling Simon must have had, total indifference and perhaps unrelenting hate, in the situation he was in. But how would you feel? Could you forgive this man whether then, or later on if you were in Simon's shoes? Could you forgive him as you are now with your own experience?
  •  

lisagurl

The whole concept of religion is to be forgiven for your sins. This concept makes it easy to sin. If you knew you would not be forgiven then you would think twice as hard about causing harm to others.  On the other hand to hold a grudge is a psychological punishment. So to give forgiveness helps the person forgiving but the person being forgiven still is responsible for his deeds it is just that they can fantasize that it was OK.
  •  

Nero

great topic.

no, i don't think i could. not if my family were killed.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
  •  

Constance

I'm not sure I can answer this one way or the other. I've already forgiven some people whom I never thought I would. At the same time, there are others whom I've refused to forgive.

I'm a different person than I used to be, and likely I'll be different in the future, too. Change is the way of things. Perhaps, I could come to be more forgiving ... even to the homophobic bigots who were responsible for the death of a loved one of mine.

Who knows. If they professed genuine remorse, I don't think I could withhold forgiveness. But, I'm not positive.

RebeccaFog


There comes a point where nothing is left but to forgive.


But, in that situation and with no time to heal, I would probably tell the guy that even Jesus would not forgive him.


That should bother him a little bit while he dies miserably.



  •  

Aurelius

Quote from: lisagurl on November 07, 2008, 07:57:27 PM
The whole concept of religion is to be forgiven for your sins. This concept makes it easy to sin. If you knew you would not be forgiven then you would think twice as hard about causing harm to others.  On the other hand to hold a grudge is a psychological punishment. So to give forgiveness helps the person forgiving but the person being forgiven still is responsible for his deeds it is just that they can fantasize that it was OK.

The whole concept of religion is to articulate and express one's faith. To ask for or be forgiven and then believe that a wrong was okay is to not believe it was a wrong in the first place, ergo no need for forgiveness...only validation. One who asks for true forgiveness knows the wrong will remain a wrong. It is a matter of conscience, not fear of the devil, and there is no hell worse than one's own mind, forgiven or not. And forgiving oneself is the hardest of all, knowing full well it will never be okay.
  •  

TamTam

I think it would honestly depend on the circumstance.. and for me, it would hinge on how genuinely remorseful the person seems, and exactly how involved/aware they were at the time.

I'm Jewish, and even though I'm lucky enough to have a family that was, as far as I know, relatively untouched by the Holocaust since we'd already passed through Ellis Island before the 1930s.. it's still something that I feel very strongly as part of my own cultural history.

So.. for example.. Hitler, and his upper-tier.  No.  Never.  Forgiveness is not an option for me, ever.  Not only would I never be able to forgive them, but I'd never give them the satisfaction of hearing the words.  And I don't consider that holding a grudge, because it doesn't pain me to hold that anger against them.. it would pain me more if I forced myself to let it go.  And they just don't deserve it.  They did far, far too much and caused far too much pain.  To the point of torture, grotesque torture in many cases.. I've done too much research and read too many accounts for me to be able to imagine myself forgiving the masterminds.  Nor could I forgive any who took pleasure and delight in what they were doing.

However.. I also try to be a realistic and fair person.  I can usually see both sides of a story, even if I don't personally like it.  So, say there's a soldier who joined Hitler's army because if he didn't, he risked persecution of himself and his own family.  He knew what he was doing was wrong as he was doing it, but he was too weak and cowardly to be able to risk himself and his own loved ones.  If he is torn up inside with guilt, and is breaking down in tears in front of me, and telling me the depth of how horrible he feels and begging me for forgiveness even though he knows he doesn't deserve it.. I would probably be able to forgive him.  Because.. who am I to say that I personally would be any less weak and cowardly?  Herd mentality, and the sad but true human ability to see other humans as mere faceless sacks of meat.. allow ordinary people do to disgusting things.  And if he's done something since then to try and heal the wounds.. such as writing sincere and respectful apology letters, or speaking out against Anti-Semitism, or donating money to surviver charities and Holocaust memorials, or providing information to help us find any of the masterminds still alive, etc.. again, any sign that he's truly sorry and taking action to help the community heal, I could forgive him.

But if he's just sitting there asking for forgiveness but doesn't truly mean his apologies?  Hell no.  He's apologizing now but hasn't lifted a finger to even attempt to mitigate the damage he did?  Hell no.  He's only suddenly sorry once he's about to die, when last year, he didn't care?  Hell no.  He was more than just following orders to cover his own ass, he was going above and beyond by making those orders?  Hell no.

Now then.. in Simon's specific circumstance.. if I was in a concentration camp at the time, I probably would not forgive him and even if I did, I would not give him the pleasure of hearing the words because everything would be happening around me and I'd be so angry at my captors I wouldn't want to help any one of them, not even a little.  I'd be thinking, "How dare he ask me to forgive him when after he dies, I'll still be in this hellhole against my will!"  I would probably tell the soldier to find some other random faceless Jew to fulfill his selfish wish for peace of mind.  After all, that's all I'd be to him, a random faceless Jew that the nurse pulled from the hallway because the forgiveness from a Jew, any Jew, is all he wants.  Screw that.
  •  

lisagurl

QuoteAnd forgiving oneself is the hardest of all, knowing full well it will never be okay.

But knowing it would never be OK before you did it is not a problem? People can rationalize anything. Before or after the fact.
  •  

RebeccaFog

I thought of another one.

I'd say, "You can't be forgiven because you're going to hell anyway. But don't worry, you won't be lonely there. If I get out of this alive, I'll be sending your family to join you."



Apparently I have anger issues with genocidal jerks.
  •  

Constance

Quote from: Rebis on November 08, 2008, 11:11:33 AM
"I'll be sending your family to join you."
Why punish the family for the actions of one member? That, to me, seems callous.

Aurelius

Quote from: lisagurl on November 08, 2008, 11:04:11 AM
QuoteAnd forgiving oneself is the hardest of all, knowing full well it will never be okay.

But knowing it would never be OK before you did it is not a problem? People can rationalize anything. Before or after the fact.

That is the problem. Rationalization is not asking for forgiveness, only validation that is was not wrong in the first place, regardless of prior knowledge. Asking forgiveness is recognizing prior knowledge that it be wrong, and the wrong remains wrong. Rationalizing and forgiveness are coping in two entirely different ways. For instance: Nazi War Criminal "We were only following orders"--> rationalization. "What I did was truly evil, I am sorry, I can never redress this crime"--> desire to be forgiven. Both parties knew it was wrong beforehand. But only one still KNOWS it, the other has deluded himself.
  •  

RebeccaFog

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 08, 2008, 11:19:50 AM
Quote from: Rebis on November 08, 2008, 11:11:33 AM
"I'll be sending your family to join you."
Why punish the family for the actions of one member? That, to me, seems callous.
So is lighting people on fire then shooting them.


I wouldn't actually do it. It would be to torment the SS guy.  We have many discussions here about violence. It tends to be physical violence we're discussing.  I can't do physical violence, however, I may be capable of psychic violence. I don't know because I haven't done it to anyone.

Of course, I'm a very nice person and I do not go around tormenting people.   :)
  •  

Constance

Quote from: Rebis on November 08, 2008, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 08, 2008, 11:19:50 AM
Quote from: Rebis on November 08, 2008, 11:11:33 AM
"I'll be sending your family to join you."
Why punish the family for the actions of one member? That, to me, seems callous.
So is lighting people on fire then shooting them.


I wouldn't actually do it. It would be to torment the SS guy.  We have many discussions here about violence. It tends to be physical violence we're discussing.  I can't do physical violence, however, I may be capable of psychic violence. I don't know because I haven't done it to anyone.

Of course, I'm a very nice person and I do not go around tormenting people.   :)

Thanks for the clarification.

Aurelius

Quote from: Rebis on November 08, 2008, 02:25:17 PM
Quote from: Shades O'Grey on November 08, 2008, 11:19:50 AM
Quote from: Rebis on November 08, 2008, 11:11:33 AM
"I'll be sending your family to join you."
Why punish the family for the actions of one member? That, to me, seems callous.
So is lighting people on fire then shooting them.


I wouldn't actually do it. It would be to torment the SS guy.  We have many discussions here about violence. It tends to be physical violence we're discussing.  I can't do physical violence, however, I may be capable of psychic violence. I don't know because I haven't done it to anyone.

Of course, I'm a very nice person and I do not go around tormenting people.   :)


Would you settle for a voo-doo doll dressed in feld-grau? >:-)
  •  

RebeccaFog


I think I could.  I'd stick a clothes pin on the doll's groin. 
  •