Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 01:48:03 PM
hi lieandra.  i think you read right over some of the things i said.  one, rlt....as it is in the official vanacular...is a test of the diagnosis.  if you are under the impression that hrt will negate all those things you mention you are kidding yourself.  all that will still exist with or without hrt.  hormones are not magic pills, they will only take you so far.  if you can't tolerate living as who you are without hrt, odds are you won't afterwards either.  not always, but it's a strong liklihood.

I apologise if I did that. I wasn't aware of it. But could I get some clarification on what you mean by 'a test of the diagnosis'? Do you mean that the RLT is to test whether the person is a transsexual? That strikes me as a wholly different thing than a test to determine whether the person is the other gender to who they appear to be.

And if that is the case, then why does real-life test/experience come with the explanation that it's to see if the person can live as their percieved gender... when, by your definition, that clearly isn't true.

I never said that HRT would negate anything, and I'm under no illusions, either. However, HRT does afford a certain level of self-confidence and self-esteem when a person can see that they look even slightly closer to who they believe themselves to be. Would you not say that the self-confidence and self-esteem would benefit anyone in integrating into society as themselves, regardless of how effective the physical changes are?

Finally, if you get that all important seal of approval that you're allowed to be yourself, and you go ahead with the decision to fully transition, won't you be living your life on HRT anyway regardless of whether you can get by without it? So living as a shadow of yourself, for however long without it, seems pointless, and a test that proves nothing other than that you know how to put on the apparel of your percieved gender.

Quote
two, hrt is prescribing drugs, very powerful drugs.  and they have permanent affects, irreversible affects on different people during different time frames.  the difference between prescribing hormones and doing surgery is a matter of degree.

Um... no, I disagree with that. For a period of as little as three months, which seems to be required RLT... from what I've read, it looks like anything brought on by HRT would be fully reversible and not permanent. So... that isn't really a good argument for not allowing it.

Quote
the exact timeframe for rlt before hrt is very subjective.  the frames do vary from therapist to therapist.  there is no absolute consensus so some referring professionals are more cautious then others.  that doesn't make them "stupid idiots", it doesn't mean they are morons or sadistic, cruel trolls out to kill off all transsexuals.  it may just mean the are cautious people dealing with a very inexact science, with some very intricate and complicated symptoms that have a proven history of mimicing one another very closely.

i think most professionals today will readily refer for medications now based simply on the fact that people are self medicating.  it's a trade off.  she may not be comfortable with her diagnosis but the more immediate danger is medicating without management.  this is dangerous for all of us and all of our younger sisters and brothers to come.  it's a very dangerous way of going about getting what you want.

looking outside of oneself, seeing things from another's perspective...looking at the bigger picture can be very helpful.

God bless with...

Indeed, and I never called anyone anything. Nor did I intend any disrespect. But there's a difference between being cautious out of doing what's best for the patient, and cautious out of doing what's best to cover your own back.

Quote from: Kate on November 08, 2008, 12:06:35 PM
Regarding HRT:

QuoteEligibility Criteria. The administration of hormones is not to be lightly undertaken because of their medical and
social risks. Three criteria exist.
1. Age 18 years;
2. Demonstrable knowledge of what hormones medically can and cannot do and their social benefits and risks;
3. Either:
a. A documented real-life experience of at least three months prior to the administration of hormones; or
b. A period of psychotherapy of a duration specified by the mental health professional after the initial evaluation (usually a minimum of three months).

FWIW...

Kate

I was gonna mention that I had read this somewhere too.

At any rate, I agree more or less with Kate.

Quote from: Kate on November 06, 2008, 09:35:06 AM
It was never about "presenting" for me, or being feminine, or any of that. I needed *acceptance* as a female, to blend in, so just walking around in public as obvious male wearing women's clothes would have been pointless for me. That's not a "test," that's cruel, missing-the-point torture, IMHO.

I know that things are different for you ladies, but I still feel that I can relate on some level. I'm basically one mile marker short of being "full time" because I'm known and referred to as Nathan everywhere....except my current classes. I would be full time if not for that. But that really doesn't mean anything, because no one sees me as male. I am getting read as lesbian because of my small stature, hairless, and feminine appearance no matter how I dress or cut my hair. This is just personal torture to me. Every "ma'am" "miss" "she" and "her" is like another lash of the whip for me. It's completely depressing.

I once had confidence in myself, I thought, "well I know I'm male, so I'll just be myself and that will do it for everyone else!" But that was not the case. No matter how much confidence I had, I was still being read as female by perfect strangers! It DOES kill your confidence after a while. One saturday I hit my lowest point, unable to get out of bed and "pretend to be a boy" because my self esteem and confidence were shot. And yes, I did stay in bed all day because I was so miserable.

I may not be an MtF but I feel your pain ladies because even while binding and "presenting" I'm still a woman to the world, and only a man to myself. I feel as though HRT could bring my confidence back...plus I want all of its positive side effects anyway. I've introduced myself as Nathaniel to people many a time, and they just think I'm a girl with a weird name.

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 12:20:00 AM
it's the same with us.  obsessive transvestites, cross-dressers, autogynephilics and ->-bleeped-<-s walk in therapists doors every day and annouce they are transsexual, demand hrt...and some even surgery.  we don't have a test we can administer physically.  we can't draw some blood, check out a few enzymes and make a diagnosis.  the "t" in rlt isn't a test of the person, it's a test of the diagnosis.

I agree with pj too in a sense.... but here's my dilemma.

My therapist is holding off even TALKING about taking T right now because SHE feels that coming out to my extended family is a necessary step that must be taken FIRST. I am out to my parents, I'm more or less Nathaniel at school, but I have to come out to extended fam before taking another step according to her.

I know that I am transsexual, there's no doubt in the world of that, but let's say hypothetically that I wasn't. What if I was just a crossdresser? Or an obsessive crossdresser? What if I just thought being a guy for the rest of my life would help make my crossdressing easier, but I wasn't actually a transsexual and did not have any dysphoria whatsover.... Wouldn't my therapist's making me come out to my family be kinda cruel? I mean I'M okay with doing it, but what if later I had a sudden revelation and realized I was just a crossdresser after all after coming out to my semi-conservative family as a transsexual? There's no redo button for that! I couldn't stop the backlash and insults, stupid questions or ignorant hatred that would follow, even if I were to say "I made a mistake." Once you come out like that, people remember that sort of thing, especially my family.

I wish I could get a different therapist in this regard because I find her steps unorthodox, but she is completely covered by my mom's health plan and I don't think I could afford someone else if I had to go back to copays. I will most likely be on my own when it comes to paying for my T prescription so I need all the money I can save. And I'm stuck with her.

hi lieandra, seeing if one can live more comfortably in their desired target gender presentation IS a test of the diagnosis.  if hrt is the difference between success and failure then one probably isn't a good candidate for hrt  YET.  we are talking right past each other. i surrender.

nathan.  you make perfect sense to me.  all i can recommend to you is to make the arguement you just made here to your therapist, i found it very valid and persuesive.  we've discussed "shopping around" here and i'm sorry to hear that this doesn't seem to be an option for you.

it seems as if your therapist is one of the cautious ones, she wants to see total committment.  i see her point...before offering you "t" she wants to be positive you aren't one of the ones with those misdiagnosis' we spoke of.  from what you say here, you are allowing for that possiblity yourself, it's a conundrum.  so i can understand her reticense.  however;  your arguement is strong, it might just be strong enough to reduce her criterion from positive to very sure.  i think you two probably could work together and see if you can't find some common ground.  most good therapists can and are more then willing to learn from their clients.  i hope yours turns out to be one of the good ones.  God bless with...

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 02:40:06 PM
it seems as if your therapist is one of the cautious ones, she wants to see total committment.  i see her point...before offering you "t" she wants to be positive you aren't one of the ones with those misdiagnosis' we spoke of. 

I feel that everyone's journey in transition is different...and just because I wasn't jumping headfirst into T when I first began seeing her, my therapist is still holding that against me. I am the type of person who doesn't like doing things because I think I have to, therefore I wasn't interested in testosterone. I didn't want to take it simply because it's what most transmen do, I wanted to take it when I wanted it, at my own pace. I'm ready for it now, because I want it, not because I'm "supposed" to want it. (I mean the following as though I were talking to my therapist:) Forgive me for wanting to make an informed decision. Health issues are a big problem in my family...I knew all the positive side effects (and wanted them at some point or another) but I was just afraid that I was going to go into HRT blind and ignorant...so I wanted to do my research first on the negative side effects before I committed to that major step.

Now that I've done my research however and know that my risks are increased because cardiovascular issues ARE more prominent in african-americans, and my own family (hypertension for one) I would like to start taking T. I know my risks, I know what I'm doing, and there is nothing else I can do about it but take care of myself. I feel that I am not saying this as a young adult who doesn't know any better, but an adult who's done their part and made a decision for themselves.

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 02:40:06 PMfrom what you say here, you are allowing for that possiblity yourself, it's a conundrum.  so i can understand her reticense.  however;  your arguement is strong, it might just be strong enough to reduce her criterion from positive to very sure.  i think you two probably could work together and see if you can't find some common ground.  most good therapists can and are more then willing to learn from their clients.  i hope yours turns out to be one of the good ones.  God bless with...

I'm sorry that you misunderstood what I posted. I know that I am a transsexual. What I feel, what I experience, the dysphoria....I know that's what it is. I know I'm a man. I'm a man with a birth defect. I wouldn't have come out to anyone without that knowledge.

When I posted "what if I was a crossdresser" I said

Quotehypothetically

because I know that I am not. I was just giving an example of why my therapist's "come out to family first" idea sucks because every transperson who walks in her door will not be a transsexual. Yes, she will come across the occasional crossdresser, transvestite, androgyne, so i'm saying that her method may work in my case, but if a crossdresser came to her and she made them do the same (but they came out to their family as a transsexual, not a crossdresser) then her method is severely lacking and it would suck for whoever that happened to. I know I tend to ramble and make myself a little unclear, but was that a little bit clearer?

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 02:40:06 PM
hi lieandra, seeing if one can live more comfortably in their desired target gender presentation IS a test of the diagnosis.

Then why would you not allow people something that could help them to do just that?

It's like saying to Da Vinci: "Paint me the Mona Lisa with your painting hand tied behind your back."

Quoteif hrt is the difference between success and failure then one probably isn't a good candidate for hrt  YET.

That doesn't make any sense. That's no different to saying "If developing a more female figure and features influences your perception of yourself as a woman... you shouldn't have a more female figure and features."

I guess I just don't understand, I'm sorry. I don't mean to be dense. I'm not saying that someone can't live as themselves without HRT, I'm suggesting that they shouldn't have to be made to, there's no valid reason, as far as I can see, why it should be denied.

I tend to agree with Leiandra... I right now will most likely start HRT while still presenting as a guy for a while. It's just the method I think I'd be most comfortable with, but hey... That's why I'm looking for a professional to talk to, right?

nathan.  you sound like a perfectly rational, intellingent, informed and of sound mind man.  i still understand her question, though less and less i'm inclined to see her insistence on the one answer.  "if you are totally convinced and committed, then why don't you want to come out to your extended family?"  it sounds a little much and i'm sure you're talking to her just as you've spoken with us here will have an affect on her judgement.  that you have talked it over with your immediate family, your friends and associates i would think would be enough.  extended family means different things to different people.  i wouldn't think it unreasonable to feel like you just simply aren't close enough with them to feel comfortable talking about such an intimate thing with them.

i didn't go on hrt until i was ready either.  my therapist was ready to refer me within a couple of months easily, i wasn't ready myself and didn't go until i was 24/7 for a year.  like you, i wanted to be absolutely sure it was for me.  i knew i was a woman and i knew i would be presenting as such for the rest of time.  i knew that hrt was not going to change that one way or the other....but...they are powerful drugs and i wanted to fully comprehend and assess all the risks and possiblilities of doing them and make a rational, not emotional, deciscion.  i wanted the e awfully badly, i wanted the positive physical changes i hoped would come from them....but it wasn't the difference between success and failure for me....i was going to survive and thrive one way or the other.  my self worth is not in anyway connected to my appearance and my appearance will not make or break my life.  shoot....there i go....being a grownup again.  sorry....

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 03:14:19 PM
my self worth is not in anyway connected to my appearance and my appearance will not make or break my life.  shoot....there i go....being a grownup again.  sorry....

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything. Personally, this whole exchange between the two of us was two rational adults explaining and discussing their views on things to each other. We're not going to agree 100% of course, but I do agree with much of what you said. However....the whole "I'm a grown up" thing that you keep repeating, not just to me, but to the others that have posted here as well can come off the wrong way. I hope you don't mean it in the way I am interpreting it (insulting). I have not done anything to insult you in this discussion, so I really wish you would stop saying that as though you are wiser and more mature than the rest of us. Or at least I hope that is not the context you meant it in.

I do not feel my self worth is connected to my appearance, but my personal view on life is that I take great pride in my appearance. (I get it from my mom!) I like making sure I'm primped and polished even if I'm just going to class. That doesn't mean I wear a suit and tie everyday, but I do try to look nice. In regards to HRT I don't just want it simply for my appearance... I have already explained that this is a very touchy issue for me because I do not fit into society as smoothly as some other FtMs with deeper voices may, or because I just want to lie in bed sometimes. I am a man. It is who I am. And I wish others knew it too. It's not a matter of appearance, it is as Kate said

Quote from: Kate on November 06, 2008, 09:35:06 AM
It was never about "presenting" for me, or being feminine, or any of that. I needed *acceptance* as a female, to blend in, so just walking around in public as obvious male wearing women's clothes would have been pointless for me. That's not a "test," that's cruel, missing-the-point torture, IMHO.

I'm an obvious "woman" walking around in men's clothes, and just that thought is quite scarring to me. Everytime someone tells me "I just thought you were a lesbian" I die a little bit inside. It's not a matter of appearance for me, being viewed/accepted as a woman in men's clothes is just heightening my already horrible dysphoria. I just want to be accepted as the man I truly am.

hi nathan...wow!  i thought i was expressing a pretty profound respect for you....which i felt.  the "grown up" statement is about me!

God, you just cannot make any sense of anything around here.  you go on and on about how mature and rational someone is and they jump up and go off on you....i just don't get it...ok, i quit...good luck.

I do understand your point to some extent on medical professionals having to be responsible for the actions they choose and the perscriptions and recommendations they right. It is in there legal right and authority to dictate how they want any client under them handling a medical perscription. I also agree that calling them names for their point of view will not solve anything. However personally I do not agree at all with that descion by the therapist HRT should be a step toward the RLT and not an afterthought. Personaly I haven't been able to summon upt he courage to even go out into public dressed once but I have started self medicated hormones for the last 4 months. When I met my therapist recently I was fortuanate to have a very kind and understanding woman who has been very helpful the few visit ive gone so far. It's kinda funny when i told her I was self medicating i was prepared for the useual lecture on the dangers and to ahve to defend myself with explaing all the research I did. However she jsut told me it was good that I was starting hormones this early in life (im 25btw) before T had any more chance to affect my body and she recommended me to a TG friendly doctor who Ill being seeing for the first time next week to have my hormone lvs checked. Understand that i am not in any way advocating self medication they are powerfull drugs and potentialy very dangerous if done wrong. 

I consider these chemicals a birthright. And thats all I'm saying.

hi fox.  your therapist does sound reasonable.  if one is bound and determined to self-medicate, then the lecture is of no value.  what's important then is to get the monitoring.  sometimes you just cannot stop the self-destructive behavior, so with all humility you can help mitigate the danger.

God bless with...

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 03:14:19 PM
i wanted the e awfully badly, i wanted the positive physical changes i hoped would come from them....but it wasn't the difference between success and failure for me....i was going to survive and thrive one way or the other.  my self worth is not in anyway connected to my appearance and my appearance will not make or break my life.  shoot....there i go....being a grownup again.  sorry....

The physical changes from HRT WERE a matter of life or death for me. My *bodily* appearance (and not presentation or whatever) is absolutely critical to me. Without the physical changes from HRT and surgeries, without being physically female now... I'd be dead. I don't "identify as a woman inside," instead, I'm *female*... with all the consequences that entails.

There's my truth. It's not a matter of being "secure" enough to "present as a woman" in public, as I just don't give a fig about "presenting as my target gender." I needed to BE my target SEX. Everything else I do is a *consequence* of being female, not a goal to present as a woman. Lock me away naked in solitary confinement for the rest of my life, and I'd STILL have to have HRT and the changes it brings... or I'd end my life.

I would have failed a test to "present as a woman" before HRT. You might as well electrocute me or pull my fingernails off, as those tortures would be just as irrelevant to my need to be and assimilate as a normal female.

We seem to be talking about two different needs, two different trajectories. I can see where RLT before HRT made sense to you, and helped you realize what was right for you. I'm just hoping you can see where it wouldn't have proved a thing for me?

Kate

Bottom line and semantics aside:  Icephoenyx, you DO need to find another therapist! 

tink

What i notice, is a lot of therapists belive all transwomen are the 'dont care' type with thick skin who WILL meakly do rle before hrt because 'living AS a woman' is all they want.

I dont want to live AS one... or like one.

How can i show a therapist i CAN fit in if i dont? Hrt does NOT make one into a woman. Just makes your body into one physically. If hrt made men into women, then f2ms wouldnt exist.

yes, kate....i hear exactly what you're saying and i fully concurr with your reality.  the are no absolutes, everyone is different.  this is precisely why the therapists can't just up and do anything.  there has to be some standard or we find chaos.  listening to you i might very well have expedited you into hrt.  i also might have felt that the razor you were holding to your wrist was just childish manipulation, i don't know.  it's sounds as if you desperately needed it, as an individual i might have felt your life was in danger and if that were the only answer, so be it.  i have not advised any course for any individual here....i just am defending the right of the perscribing authority to verify their diagnosis by whatever means possible.  i'm so sorry that makes no sense to some, it makes perfect sense to me.

nobody has a birthright to something someone else has to do for them.

Posted on: November 08, 2008, 08:42:51 pm

---

starbuck, you seem to disagree with just about everything i say and you seem to be getting away with it.

i can't possibly disagree more with what you just said.  hrt will not make you body into a woman's physically.  hrt can bring some of your body chemistry into line, and can produce some changes in skin, hair, breasts and fat/muscle relationship, but it does not make a body female....hrt has yet to produce it's first vagina, clitoris, orarie or uteres. it has never, to my knowledge, altered bone structure or deleted a penis or a testacle.  it's good, but it ain't all that. it certainly can help produce a female appearance though.

Quote from: pennyjanehrt has yet to produce it's first vagina, clitoris, orarie or uteres. it has never, to my knowledge, altered bone structure or deleted a penis or a testacle.

Yea, it is a ->-bleeped-<- shame that it doesn't do some of that. It is quite a bitch that it can't totally reverse what that corrosive, awful poison has already done.

Quote from: pennyjane on November 08, 2008, 09:29:14 PM
starbuck, you seem to disagree with just about everything i say and you seem to be getting away with it.

i can't possibly disagree more with what you just said.  hrt will not make you body into a woman's physically.  hrt can bring some of your body chemistry into line, and can produce some changes in skin, hair, breasts and fat/muscle relationship, but it does not make a body female....hrt has yet to produce it's first vagina, clitoris, orarie or uteres. it has never, to my knowledge, altered bone structure or deleted a penis or a testacle.  it's good, but it ain't all that. it certainly can help produce a female appearance though.

anyway....

You take my point too literally. Hrt will give one the outward apearance of a female ... (OBVIOUSLY WITHOUT VAGINA OK? - i had presumed that people were inteligent enough to establish that.) The person looks more female, softer skin, breasts, figure changes... fat distribution as you said. But it also has massively different effects depending on age... genetics etc.

For me, transitioning at 19, its changed me HUGELY... whereas it may not change someone who transitioned at 50 as much... such is the nature of human growth homrone levels for one thing...

with regards to the topic, looking like the gender you feel helps massively integrating... especially in a society that is still awkward about gender...hey... if it looks like a duck.... RLT is a test to see if you can live as a woman. Not live as a man in womens clothes.

I'm not out to get you penny, you've just said some things recently that i disagree with.

im not after you, and ET doesnt want to probe you... sorry if either is a dissapointment.

Quote from: trapthavok on November 08, 2008, 02:55:16 PM
I was just giving an example of why my therapist's "come out to family first" idea sucks because every transperson who walks in her door will not be a transsexual. Yes, she will come across the occasional crossdresser, transvestite, androgyne, so i'm saying that her method may work in my case, but if a crossdresser came to her and she made them do the same (but they came out to their family as a transsexual, not a crossdresser) then her method is severely lacking and it would suck for whoever that happened to.

I completely agree with this statement. It kind of reminds me of the time of witch hunts where they would do things like tie a rock to them and throw them in the water; if they were a witch they'd float and be subject to death afterward, if not then they'd drown, both circumstances would lead to death. In this case the therapist is throwing you into the world and seeing if you float or drown. If you float then you're a transsexual (even if you're not) and can move forward, otherwise you drown. Either way you're putting yourself at risk by coming out prematurely.

It also seems a little unorthodox just because coming out doesn't seem to be a professional test to qualify someone as transsexual or not since coming out only has two outcomes. Either you're going to have support from family or you're not. Either way it doesn't show if you're really a transsexual or not since acceptance will most likely just fuel the fire by adding to the support behind the person transitioning in which case they'd continue to want to move forward even if they're not a transsexual, and rejection will serve only to test the person's level of strength in dealing with bigotry and hate, not whether they are transsexual or not.

That being said, I don't see how anyone can really justify the motives of requiring someone to either come out to family or friends, or be full time before being allowed to take HRT. If the person isn't ready to come out to people or go full time that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not they are really transsexual or not.

Quote from: Kiera on November 09, 2008, 05:47:47 PM

Quote from: trapthavok on November 08, 2008, 03:27:47 PMI'm an obvious "woman" walking around in men's clothes, and just that thought is quite scarring to me. Everytime someone tells me "I just thought you were a lesbian" I die a little bit inside. It's not a matter of appearance for me, being viewed/accepted as a woman in men's clothes is just heightening my already horrible dysphoria. I just want to be accepted as the man I truly am.

My this has turned into quite a discussion, can *avoid it* no more, I think comparing a FtM experience with a MtF is somewhat like "apples" to "oranges" even though the desired end result *acknowledgment & acceptance* remains the same. Personally coming out first to what otherwise always seemed to me like a *highly dysfunctional family* is the best thing I could ever have done and has only served to bring us all closer together with terms such as "normal", "highly typical" & "socially adjusted" being mere myths that many all along try to delude themselves into thinking, the arrogance of which in itself can be the most intolerable thing in the world.

Traphavok, to simply "dress the part" and expect to be treated as such just because it is more accepted is very delusional, I think you know that so if it truly bothers you why do it?

So Your Normal eh? Able to judge? Yea Right! Self-affirmation & happiness comes from within & always will with *other's reflective attitudes be dammed*, have never ever had a problem being regarded as "gay"

First of all, I know comparing FTM and MTF is apples to oranges, but I still felt as though we can relate to each other in some way, shape or form. Sorry for intruding on this thread, I thought this was just about hormones, not Estrogen solely.

Second of all, it's not necessarily that I "dress the part," I dress in the clothes that are comfortable to me. I'm not trying to prove anything to anyone in my manner of dress. I simply choose not to wear women's clothing anymore because I am not a woman. I do not expect to be treated like a man simply because of the way I dress, but in my manner of walking, talking, etc. I hope that my binder does SOMETHING for my appearance as well. I do not appreciate being called delusional. and I'm not going to stop dressing like this just because it bothers me being labeled as lesbian.

I do not consider myself lesbian, but I think it is also rude of you to say "am I normal" as though I think I'm better than everyone else. I am not better than anyone, I'm simply trying to get by day to day just like everyone else. That doesn't mean I enjoy being labeled though. Who does?? Especially when the label doesn't apply. If I were a dog, don't you think it'd be a little scarring to be labeled and treated like a cat?  I am not judging anybody in any way shape or form, so I don't know where you're getting that from. I am happy being who I am, but it doesn't mean I am going to be happy everytime someone calls me a girl or something, that's just my own personal stick. I'm not going to linger over it everytime it happens, but its worthy enough to make me feel upset for a few moments. I'm sorry that I cannot be perfect like you.

This will be my last post in this thread, so thank you for the compliments to those who gave them and thank you to those who slandered me. I appreciate it. It makes me realize how little any of your opinions matter in my life and my self-worth.