Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 06:07:02 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 05:38:28 PM
Yes.

Now it's your turn.

Sorry, I fudged the code and you quoted me before I fixed it. Re-read the post.

The scenario is not flawed, that is the scenario. The scenario is you don't know until she tells you.

Regardless, it seems you have some thinking to do.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 05:41:46 PM

Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?

Kelly, think you should consider just how offensive that analogy sounds ?

Obviously, I'm not saying TSs are axe murderers. The elements in the two situations that are similar is that these are both people with a secret past but have changed and their is no evidence of anything objectionable; they are otherwise acceptable in every other manner.  There's just that one little sticking point...and the chance however small that they might revert to previous behavior.

After reading the rest of your comments and how you do your relationships I can see why you got so angry with me. I could make alot of judgments about you but I'm just going to drop it here. Have a nice day, Laura.

Posted on: November 14, 2008, 06:20:10 pm

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Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 06:11:19 PM
The scenario is not flawed, that is the scenario. The scenario is you don't know until she tells you.

Regardless, it seems you have some thinking to do.

Gracie, the scenario is flawed, it does not and never can exist as you have constructed it. It is unmitigated fantasy. She either is or isn't TS, you can't have it both ways. I'd suggest you think about that.

Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 06:25:38 PM

Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 05:41:46 PM

Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?

Kelly, think you should consider just how offensive that analogy sounds ?

Obviously, I'm not saying TSs are axe murderers. The elements in the two situations that are similar is that these are both people with a secret past but have changed and their is no evidence of anything objectionable; they are otherwise acceptable in every other manner.  There's just that one little sticking point...and the chance however small that they might revert to previous behavior.

After reading the rest of your comments and how you do your relationships I can see why you got so angry with me. I could make alot of judgments about you but I'm just going to drop it here. Have a nice day, Laura.

Posted on: November 14, 2008, 06:20:10 pm

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Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 06:11:19 PM
The scenario is not flawed, that is the scenario. The scenario is you don't know until she tells you.

Regardless, it seems you have some thinking to do.

Gracie, the scenario is flawed, it does not and never can exist as you have constructed it. It is unmitigated fantasy. She either is or isn't TS, you can't have it both ways. I'd suggest you think about that.

One is capable of being TS and attractive enough to fully pass as a cis-gendered female. And MtF SRS is good enough that you'd never known more-so. It is possible and it exists far more than you give it credit.

And even if it didn't, it wouldn't matter. That doesn't matter when it comes to hypotheticals.

Quote from: Leiandra on November 14, 2008, 06:10:52 PM
Call me naive, but I always thought you fall in love with the gift, not the wrapping. And if the relationship was perfect to start with, why would any revelation about who a person used to be change that? They aren't that person now, and they weren't that person when you met. I mean, using that logic, why do you not see them as a snivelling three-year-old wearing a diaper and snorting milk out through their nose? After all, they used to be that, too. It doesn't make sense.

Yes it may be shallow, but its human nature, I like my wrapping to be attractive too ...

Love and attraction (least for me, and probably way more so for guys ?) come as part of a package, and being physically attracted to a partner plays a huge part, doesn't it ?

And a lot of sexual attraction is about opposites, why most men are repulsed at the idea of intimacy with men, and same with women.

I can see "my guy" as a blubbing baby boy, scruffy schoolboy, but even those images for most people reinforce the sexual attraction of being different, having a different growing up experience from your partner ?

And I can see if a guy realises we went through similar childhoods, boy's schools (however painfull that was for me), male careers, that would detract from from my feminine "karma" and make me less of a woman in his eyes, maybe not a woman at all.

Guess its hard for a relationship to transcend that and it makes me realise that however much I disagree with her "revulsion" stance, Kellygurl is quite typical for a guy ...

Laura x


Posted on: November 14, 2008, 07:38:05 pm

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Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 06:25:38 PM
Obviously, I'm not saying TSs are axe murderers. The elements in the two situations that are similar is that these are both people with a secret past but have changed and their is no evidence of anything objectionable; they are otherwise acceptable in every other manner.  There's just that one little sticking point...and the chance however small that they might revert to previous behavior.

Kelly, please explain "revert to previous behaviour" ... what previous behaviour ?

Does that mean I might grow a beard (impossible now), start wearing tweed jackets, drinking pints of beer, smoking a pipe ...  ... ?

If that's your hang up then I think its way less likely than a TS girl taking up axe-murder !!!

Laura x

Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 01:21:21 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:51:29 PM
Actually the majority of admirers are just normal guys that have a thing for transgirls.

Claire, think "normal guys that have a thing for transgirls" is a kinda contradiction ?

"Normal guys" do not have a thing for women with male equipment, which is what admirers are all about.

Most admirers show no interest in post-op, and the few who specifically look to date a post-op woman must be even more mixed up in their reasons.

Sure a normal guy might accept a pre- or post- transgirl once he finds out ...  ... but to go specially looking for one ... that's far from normal in my reckoning !

Laura x

It wasn't me that made that statement but I'll reply anyway.  ->-bleeped-<-s generally don't identify as gay or bi.  I'm willing to take them at their word.  It's not my place to judge other's sexual orientation.  I think the attraction may be fetishistic but it's a harmless one.  Perhaps as a post-op you can pull off the just a woman thing.  For the rest of us the issue is going to come up as the relationship progresses.  Myself, I prefer to be clear about my anatomy from the beginning.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 06:38:05 PM

Quote from: Leiandra on November 14, 2008, 06:10:52 PM
Call me naive, but I always thought you fall in love with the gift, not the wrapping. And if the relationship was perfect to start with, why would any revelation about who a person used to be change that? They aren't that person now, and they weren't that person when you met. I mean, using that logic, why do you not see them as a snivelling three-year-old wearing a diaper and snorting milk out through their nose? After all, they used to be that, too. It doesn't make sense.

Yes it may be shallow, but its human nature, I like my wrapping to be attractive too ...

Love and attraction (least for me, and probably way more so for guys ?) come as part of a package, and being physically attracted to a partner plays a huge part, doesn't it ?

Well that tears it, lol. I'm not human. To be honest, in my case... no. It's a bonus, sure, but not the primary, secondary, or even tertiary influence for me. I know I'm very weird, but that's just how I feel.

Quote
And a lot of sexual attraction is about opposites, why most men are repulsed at the idea of intimacy with men, and same with women.

But I don't see transwomen as men, or transmen as women, whatever stage of transition they're in. So it wouldn't matter to me at all. I don't know how to explain it in any way that makes sense, because it probably doesn't, but I don't see people on the outside. I see who they are, not who they seem to be.

Quote
I can see "my guy" as a blubbing baby boy, scruffy schoolboy, but even those images for most people reinforce the sexual attraction of being different, having a different growing up experience from your partner ?

And I can see if a guy realises we went through similar childhoods, boy's schools (however painfull that was for me), male careers, that would detract from from my feminine "karma" and make me less of a woman in his eyes, maybe not a woman at all.

Guess its hard for a relationship to transcend that and it makes me realise that however much I disagree with her "revulsion" stance, Kellygurl is quite typical for a guy ...

Laura x

Yeah, I guess you have a point, Laura. It never would have occurred to me, but I can see how that might be the case. Thank you for that insight.

However, for the record, when I look at your avatar and see the way you express yourself through your words, I see a beautiful woman... and that's it. To me, that's who you always were. Any... maleness, implied or otherwise, just doesn't register. At all. Same with all the ladies here. I take people for who they are, not who they were. That doesn't matter. Potential is more significant than past.

I don't know, I'm just weird, or idealistic or something, lol.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 12:48:29 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 12:02:18 PM
It seems like the overwhelming majority of admirers/->-bleeped-<-s of gentlemen of the older variety.

->-bleeped-<-s are creeps ... why would anyone want to date a guy who is turned on because you are "trans" ... whatever his age ... ...

Guess its more the older guys who have had to repressed their bi- or homosexuality, or their own CD, TG tendencies, and see dating a transwoman as a "safe" non-challenging outlet for their fantasies ?

I only go for straight guys who see me just as a woman, and would avoid "admirers" like the plague if I ever encountered them (but I never go to those kind of places or to TG dating sites).

Most guys who "come on" to me are at least 10 - 20 years younger than me, and they can be fun until you realise that they just have one thing on their mind ! 

And I think (especially if you are young yourself) "coming out" to a young guy is maybe more likely to draw an accepting response ?

Laura x

I agree with you Laura.  I have had '->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-s' after me, and they are only after the one thing other women don't have.  Most are married and repressing homosexuality tendancies. 
I think it is different if they don't know before and still able to accept afterwards, that is love.
But when a guy just wants the added bonus as they call it, that is a fetish and not love.  Once it is gone, so are they.

Quote from: Claire de Lune on November 14, 2008, 06:52:31 PM
->-bleeped-<-s generally don't identify as gay or bi.  I'm willing to take them at their word.  It's not my place to judge other's sexual orientation.  I think the attraction may be fetishistic but it's a harmless one.  Perhaps as a post-op you can pull off the just a woman thing.  For the rest of us the issue is going to come up as the relationship progresses.  Myself, I prefer to be clear about my anatomy from the beginning.

But how can you form a relationship with a guy who is attracted to you "as a fetish" ... ...

OK if he's a cultured guy, own's his own Central London bussiness, has a Covent Garden penthouse apartment (and yes I have his landline phone number !), has had previous TS "relationships" ... but for me the concept of "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-" just soo puts me off that I never even milked him for a few real expensive restaurant meals and some bottles of real decent wine !

Laura x

Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?

How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer??  Typical ignorant comparison by a CD.  Sorry, I find it very offensive.

Quote from: buttercup on November 14, 2008, 07:07:58 PM
How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer??  Typical ignorant comparison by a CD.  Sorry, I find it very offensive.

Granted it's not a perfect analogy but you can find the similarities if you're mind is open enough. More importantly it was part of a conversation I was having about hypotheticals to illustrate the point that being honest from the beginning in a relationship is important. But I can see that value is obviously not so important to you as it is to most, thus you are offended.

I could add some insults, as you have, but I'll leave it at that and consider a judicious use of the Ignore button instead.

Quote from: buttercup on November 14, 2008, 07:07:58 PM

Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?

How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer??  Typical ignorant comparison by a CD.  Sorry, I find it very offensive.

Lets not go calling people names, now. Doesn't matter the circumstance.

Posted on: November 14, 2008, 06:27:40 pm

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Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 07:27:12 PM

Quote from: buttercup on November 14, 2008, 07:07:58 PM
How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer??  Typical ignorant comparison by a CD.  Sorry, I find it very offensive.

Granted it's not a perfect analogy but you can find the similarities if you're mind is open enough. More importantly it was part of a conversation I was having about hypotheticals to illustrate the point that being honest from the beginning in a relationship is important. But I can see that value is obviously not so important to you as it is to most, thus you are offended.

I could add some insults, as you have, but I'll leave it at that and consider a judicious use of the Ignore button instead.

No one should share personal, sensitive medical history on first dates or when first meeting. If trans women walked around with big "I used to have a penis" stickers on them they would get far less attention just as an attractive woman would get less attention if she would wear a "I was born with a dead siamese twin attached to my belly"

It's not lying, it is just not shared. And it is okay if it is not shared right away, because it is unneeded information in that time frame.

On the subject of straight guys freaking out when the find they have been attracted to a woman who "used to be a guy" (which is the way they see it) is pure homophobia. Most straight men would rather cut off their pxxxx and their bxxxx than think they were the least little bit homosexual.

The root of the problem is that most of "enlightened society" simply doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender and finds it incomprehensible that they could be opposite each other. After all, EVERYONE KNOWS that if you have bits that stick out, you are a boy and will become a man and if you don't you're a woman. To begin to acknowledge that there may be some separation between sex and gender undermines the very cornerstone of modern society!

P.S. On the original subject I can't comment - I have always been stealth.

Quote from: buttercup on November 14, 2008, 07:07:58 PM

Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 05:13:53 PM
Lets do this. Lets imagine you met a wonderful guy and you get married. After a perfect 10-year relationship you discover through a third party that he's an axe murderer. You've had 10 wonderful perfect years, he's done absolutely everything right and never once given you reason to doubt him in any way, shape or manner? Would you stay with him?

How can you compare a mtf with an axe murderer??  Typical ignorant comparison by a CD.  Sorry, I find it very offensive.

She set up a straw man, which is an acceptable form of argumentation in my mind.  And what's up with the CD bashing? 

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 07:37:29 PM

No one should share personal, sensitive medical history on first dates or when first meeting. If trans women walked around with big "I used to have a penis" stickers on them they would get far less attention just as an attractive woman would get less attention if she would wear a "I was born with a dead siamese twin attached to my belly"

It's not lying, it is just not shared. And it is okay if it is not shared right away, because it is unneeded information in that time frame.

Maybe not the first date but soon thereafter. At what point do you tell them you have an STD? I'd call that sensitive medical history. The issue is you are removing the right of choice by hiding that information. What if the person has a religious objection he simply can't ignore or change? You would veto that in favor of letting him believe you are something he could never live with all because you are convinced there no possible reason he needs to know? This is playing fast and loose with some very important ethical questions.

Quote from: Laura Eva B on November 14, 2008, 07:05:10 PM

Quote from: Claire de Lune on November 14, 2008, 06:52:31 PM
->-bleeped-<-s generally don't identify as gay or bi.  I'm willing to take them at their word.  It's not my place to judge other's sexual orientation.  I think the attraction may be fetishistic but it's a harmless one.  Perhaps as a post-op you can pull off the just a woman thing.  For the rest of us the issue is going to come up as the relationship progresses.  Myself, I prefer to be clear about my anatomy from the beginning.

But how can you form a relationship with a guy who is attracted to you "as a fetish" ... ...

OK if he's a cultured guy, own's his own Central London bussiness, has a Covent Garden penthouse apartment (and yes I have his landline phone number !), has had previous TS "relationships" ... but for me the concept of "->-bleeped-<- ->-bleeped-<-" just soo puts me off that I never even milked him for a few real expensive restaurant meals and some bottles of real decent wine !

Laura x

well Laura Eva B  while it is possable to  form a relationship with a guy who is attracted to you "as a fetish" but also too maybe the people are NOT LOOKING TO  fom a said

RELATIONSHIP !!  and maybe they  just want some company . or maybe  they want some one to be just freinds with some one

Posted on: November 14, 2008, 09:03:48 pm

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Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:02:53 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 07:37:29 PM

No one should share personal, sensitive medical history on first dates or when first meeting. If trans women walked around with big "I used to have a penis" stickers on them they would get far less attention just as an attractive woman would get less attention if she would wear a "I was born with a dead siamese twin attached to my belly"

It's not lying, it is just not shared. And it is okay if it is not shared right away, because it is unneeded information in that time frame.

Maybe not the first date but soon thereafter. At what point do you tell them you have an STD? I'd call that sensitive medical history. The issue is you are removing the right of choice by hiding that information. What if the person has a religious objection he simply can't ignore or change? You would veto that in favor of letting him believe you are something he could never live with all because you are convinced there no possible reason he needs to know? This is playing fast and loose with some very important ethical questions.

indeed it is much more better to SHARE THIS INFROMATION   as it hold  much importants in regards to STDS AND AIDS  and other desieases too

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 14, 2008, 07:47:09 PM
On the subject of straight guys freaking out when the find they have been attracted to a woman who "used to be a guy" (which is the way they see it) is pure homophobia. Most straight men would rather cut off their pxxxx and their bxxxx than think they were the least little bit homosexual.

The root of the problem is that most of "enlightened society" simply doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender and finds it incomprehensible that they could be opposite each other. After all, EVERYONE KNOWS that if you have bits that stick out, you are a boy and will become a man and if you don't you're a woman. To begin to acknowledge that there may be some separation between sex and gender undermines the very cornerstone of modern society!

P.S. On the original subject I can't comment - I have always been stealth.

What if it collides with their religious faith? Would you disregard that with the excuse that they are homophobic, ignorant about their own sexuality and don't deserve the basic human respect of honesty all so you can know what it's like to be a complete woman? Seems a little selfish to me.

Quote from: Northern Jane on November 14, 2008, 07:47:09 PM
The root of the problem is that most of "enlightened society" simply doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender and finds it incomprehensible that they could be opposite each other. After all, EVERYONE KNOWS that if you have bits that stick out, you are a boy and will become a man and if you don't you're a woman. To begin to acknowledge that there may be some separation between sex and gender undermines the very cornerstone of modern society!

Jane, you're looking for a sea change in society for people to regard brain gender as overriding physical sex ?

I'm guilty too as guess I would find it difficult dating a transguy ... no repulsion, but little sexual attraction once I knew his history.

And I understand why my current guy who keeps saying how feminine I am in my looks, my voice, my gestures, and who is still quite willing to introduce me to his friends and be seen "dating" me (so he must believe I'm 100% passable) has perceptively physically "cooled" since I came out to him.

Laura x

Quote from: debbie j on November 14, 2008, 08:06:03 PM
indeed it is much more better to SHARE THIS INFROMATION   as it hold  much importants in regards to STDS AND AIDS  and other desieases too

So it turns out there are many valid reasons to expect honesty, some of them you may not be aware of and by withholding the information you could be hurting someone for your own gain.

Quote from: Kelleygurl on November 14, 2008, 08:02:53 PM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 14, 2008, 07:37:29 PM

No one should share personal, sensitive medical history on first dates or when first meeting. If trans women walked around with big "I used to have a penis" stickers on them they would get far less attention just as an attractive woman would get less attention if she would wear a "I was born with a dead siamese twin attached to my belly"

It's not lying, it is just not shared. And it is okay if it is not shared right away, because it is unneeded information in that time frame.

Maybe not the first date but soon thereafter. At what point do you tell them you have an STD? I'd call that sensitive medical history. The issue is you are removing the right of choice by hiding that information. What if the person has a religious objection he simply can't ignore or change? You would veto that in favor of letting him believe you are something he could never live with all because you are convinced there no possible reason he needs to know? This is playing fast and loose with some very important ethical questions.

The logical and responsible time to reveal you have or have had an STD is before you have sex, of course. I feel the same applies to pre-op trans women.

As for post-op? It is best that they do the same sometime in the relationship before it gets really really heavy and long term, but it is not a 100% necessity.

Quote from: Claire de Lune on November 14, 2008, 07:54:33 PM

She set up a straw man, which is an acceptable form of argumentation in my mind.  And what's up with the CD bashing? 

Thank you, Claire. What is up with the CD bashing?