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The grey between right and wrong

Started by Terra, November 18, 2008, 12:57:59 AM

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Terra

Maybe it is a byproduct of my being in such a dark place lately, but i've had much more time to think.I'm not making a political statement or trying to incite anger with this post. I simply wish to encourage thinking. If you are offended I apologize, but I would still pose the question. As with any philosophical question, please use logic to counter anything I have stated. I think i'm becoming a bit jaded. Please be civil, as i will delete the entire post if it gets out of hand.

What is right and wrong? how is it possible to justify something as 'just' and 'good' and other actions ad 'evil' and 'wrong'? Is there some cosmic force out there that gives a moral compass, and if there is why is it that it only affects humans?

My take is that morality is a contrived means of controlling the masses. After all, it is 'wrong' to kill another simply because you yourself don't want to be at risk of being killed. For instance, say the classic example of the train is put before you. You have two choices and two choices only. You can switch the train onto two paths, one will lead to more than one person dieing and the other will only kill one. Which do you choose? If you choose multiple people to die, what made the one so important to spare? If you choose the one, what is he any less important than the many? Either way, no matter how you argue it, the fact you choose someone to die is an 'evil' action.

Another example can be given this way. Let's say you kill someone who was planning to kill many people. You had no reason to do it, and you didn't know that the death would spare others. Does that make you a hero, or a murderer? We quantify so much, and really there is no 'right' and 'wrong', just circumstance.

Speaking as someone who has taken life in the medical field and forner service member, I say there there really isn't much difference between a soldier and a murderer. I don't condemn soldiers, I along with society think that they are very important to our protection and lives. I feel sorrow at each one who has given up his or her life in defense of this country. However, what really makes the difference between the two? One kills for self, the other for country. One is locked up, the other given medals. This is one of many examples, in my case it was removing someone from life support simply because the government no longer wished to pay for it. The man lived as long as he was on the life support, removing it meant his life. Does that make me a medical practitioner, or a murderer. I even did it with his family watching and begging me not to. Another was a time i triage, I choose who would live and die. I played God if even for a few short hours. Does that make me wrong for the lives I let slip, or good for helping those I could?

I'm not making a political statement or incite anger with this post. I simply wish to encourage thinking. If you are offended I apologize, but I would still pose the question. As with any philosophical question, please use logic to counter anything I have stated.
"If you quit before you try, you don't deserve to dream." -grandmother
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lady amarant

To me, morality depends entirely on what one's most basic, fundamental drive is. There is no real mystical or religious significance to it. Ultimately every action we take, whether good or bad, is fundamentally in our own best interests, at least in our own minds. Survival is what drives the vast majority of living beings, humans included, and all the rules, morals and ethics we've built up are just very complex versions of the kind of rules that exist in a pack of wolves or a troupe of gorillas or a herd of zebra. We're social animals, and we follow the rules of our group, the "society/tribe/pack" or whatever, because we believe we derive some benefit from it. We value the security, safety and opportunity that being part of a group gives us, so we act towards sustaining the group. We are taught the rules and conventions of the group as we grow up, and we pretty-much apply them without thought, going through our lives pretty-much ignorant, unaware and entirely reactive.

The problem comes in when individuals in the group feel that their interests are no longer served, either by being part of the group, or by the rules that govern the group. If you are not benefitting from the group you are a part of, what possible reason do you have to maintain it and follow its rules?

So somebody who is homeless, jobless, lacks education, is marginalised, and feels alienated from society - who can blame that person if si starts undermining that society through crime, protest, sabotage etc?

That is the point I think modern society misses, especially in the West. We benefit from a stable society, but a society is only stable when ALL of its members feel invested in that society. If they don't, they'll try to create a different society, which means destroying the present one. That is why social security and social programs, public education, etc, are important. The society invests in the individuals, and in turn those individuals become invested in the society. Actions that keep the society coherent and homogeneous (there is strength in sameness) are "good", while actions that deviate are "evil".

At the root of it though, it's all still just our instinct for survival informed by whatever information we've collected.

I don't believe though that Survival is the only driver. Once your basic survival needs are met, and for some individuals even before that, Choice becomes the primary motivator. Take us for example. Because of the circumstance of Gender Dysphoria, we are willing to break with society, place our financial and social security in jeopardy, even risk our lives on HRT and in surgery because we choose to be true to ourselves. We move from being reactive to being active, taking control and direction of where we want to go, no matter the possible cost. More often than not, Individual Choice seemingly stands at odds with Group Survival, which is why we get labelled as evil, deviants, or just whacked.

The important thing to remember about Choice though, is that, if you restrict the choices of other people, you threaten your own freedom to choose. Self Determination is a basic need, and the moment you restrict that, you again disinvest people from the society. If they feel that they are not allowed to be true to themselves, to choose the things that are important to them, why would they want to preserve that society? Under this drive then, actions that promote Choice, your own AS WELL as that of others, is morally good. Choices you make that impact on what choices others can make is "evil".

At the end of the day though it's still a selfish thing though. I realise that a society that protects the rights and choices of others is more likely to protect mine, so I work actively towards that goal.

Compassion, I would argue, is a third driver distinct from either of the other two. You could remove compassion entirely from an argument for social welfare, or giving to charity, or protecting minority rights, and motivate them on the basis of either Survival or Choice. But when people give up their own lives in service of others, or are willing to die to save a stranger, or whatever - that is something different, something more. It's a need to give, to serve, that seemingly stands at odds with the basic needs of survival and choice, one that is not so easy to point to.

So yeah, sorry I rambled. Basically though, to me, laws, ethics, morals, cultural conventions - all of them ... at the end of the day there is no easy way to distinguish between what is "right" and what is "wrong". You might have one society where polygamy is practised, and makes sense, and another where mating with a single partner for life is the only acceptable, sensible choice. Likewise with the death penalty, or with abortion, or with whatever else. At the end of the day the Survival bunch will stand on one side of the argument, the Choice people on the other, and both sides could ( not do ;) ) make convincing arguments to support their stance.

~Simone.
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Kelley Jo

I really love your posts, Terra. I'm not sure how to respond sometimes, but I love your posts.

:icon_bunch:
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lisagurl

The objective view does not make judgments it only deals with facts. Good bad, right wrong are personal judgments. They are taught by experience, culture, and those who manipulate us. It is almost impossible to get all the facts so most judgments are made from beliefs.
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Janet_Girl

I agree with Kelley.  I read this after you posted it and I wasn't sure on how to respond.  But as I think and reread yours and Simone's post it comes to me that the difference would be common sense.  Is it right for a soldier to take a life?  In combat, common sense would say 'Yes'.  But if that same said soldier is in a noncombat area and he kills someone, then "No".

Even in your own field, you make decisions based on your training and common sense.  If a person has no hope of survival, do you do everything to try and save that person.  Or do you make them comfortable and let nature take its course.

Even within society, common sense plays a role.  The Herd mentality will have a basic common sense that is geared to the herd.  If something is amiss within the herd, the herd common sense will insure the herd's health.  But if the herd is health, common sense will disregard something that is amiss.

Even within our own lives, common sense tells us that something is amiss and we use it to find out what that is and take action that makes common sense to us.

Is common sense based on upbringing, training, personal religion or something cosmic?  I think that common sense is in a way cosmic in nature, unchangeable.  But because of free will and choice, we pervert that common sense.  
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Sarah

From a Buddhist point of view, we do not categorize things in terms of "right" and "wrong", but rather that some actions are helpful and tend to lead towards the cessation of suffering, and some are considered unhelpful, because it can cause harm to oneself and others.
That's why we train ourselves to refrain from certain actions; because they can cause harm to ourselves and others.


Does that help?
-Sara

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BunnyBee

People normally will define truth as whatever has been consistent inside the frame of their own observations up to that point.  Most people, as they live longer and accumulate more data, have to expand their frame.  There are some, however, who at a certain point decide their current frame is Truth (with a capital T) and refuse to believe anything which falls outside that frame, no matter how convincing the evidence.

These are the people who think dinosaur bones are Satan's work.

Anyway, since we can never have all the data (the laws of physics put boundries on the resolution and depth of what we can observe, for instance) then nobody's frame can ever be all-encompassing, so no human can ever claim to know Truth.  Right and wrong are subjective terms relative to each individual's given accumulated set of data.

What is right or wrong in a given society is just defined by whatever social contract that particular group has agreed on, which is why they can be so different from one group to another even within different subcultures of a larger society.  Sometimes, as with the Jim Crow laws in America for instance, what is defined by society as right... is not.

In short, you get to decide what is right or wrong for you, I get to decide if I agree, and we both should reserve the right to change our minds.
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