Sometimes I have a hard time explaining transsexualism to these dolts online. Yes yes I know it's stupid and pointless to try to do so on the internet, which is why I cut this short on him. Anyways, read/skim through this and tell me what you think of his side of the argument, how well I held up, and what you would say in defense against him.

BTW this is from a different site, not on Susans, so don't worry, lol.

BTW again this conversation started with an innocent question about my breasts, then i said hormones, then he asked about them. (I'm totally open about myself on that site and it is not a trans support site)

Quote from: Gracie FAISE

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It's been 7 months. I'm nearing an A cup

Kind of a lot of time and probably lots of money for a little bit. Worth it?

The hormones are inexpensive, and breasts develop over 5 years. I'm only 10% complete.

Plus breasts are only one of many, many things hormones change for me.

It is totally worth it.

Good thing you're starting young. I hate it when 50 year old men decide to become girls and look like the ugliest transsexuals ever.

You could pass in another year or two I think. You get away with it now, I bet, but only as a boyish girl.

I've been passing since before I started hormones, and I don't think you give me enough credit. I'm far from boyish. I may have a lacking figure, but I'm nowhere near "boyish."

And you shouldn't hate the late transitioners. They came from a different era. Most late transitioners couldn't transition because back in the time they were my age they would have been killed or excommunicated from their community, not embraced and accepted like I have been.

Sure they don't always look 100% great, but it's not about looking good, it's about finally correcting a birth defect that you have suffered all your life.

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Transsexuals need to stop acting like they're suffering. You guys are some of the biggest whiners in the medical world, and even cancer patients don't complain nearly as much.

Plenty of people with more serious defects are less upset about it. Besides, some of you (not all) are mentally defective, not physically. Gender identity is a feature of social and emotional upbringing, and a significant number of transsexuals are a result of unique circumstances in life, not birth.

And I'll always wonder why there are more men who believe they are women than women who believe they are men.

It's a birth defect, not a mental disorder. This is a proven fact. Those who think they are through a mental disorder has that mental disorder diagnosed and treated. They are the ones who do not transition. That is why we have a very annoying screening process we all have to go through. The "gate-keepers" as they are known in the community.

We are so outspoken because we need to be. Cancer patients are beaten and killed by police for sport. Cancer patients don't have to sit through annoying psychiatric screenings to prove they have cancer. Cancer patients don't get kicked on the streets and forced to take up prostitution just to survive when their friends, family, and community find out they have cancer.

Yes, there are far more wickedly deforming birth defects out there, but they all get universal support and care. People with transsexualism tend to get kicked to the curb and dismissed as sexual deviants and perverts.

Gender is, in great part, a social construct. A creation of nurture, not nature. But not 100%. A good chunk of gender is biological, which was proven with many experiments where males were raised as and fully told that they were female. Removed testicles at birth and raised as a girl in a totally stereotypical female upbringing. On the hypothesis that gender is 100% nurture, one could raise a male to fully believe and identify as a female. Do you know what happened in every singe experiment? That male, raised as a female, showed strong signs through their life of a "female to male" transsexual. All experiments failed, and one of the subjects even killed themselves (and so did his brother) when they found out they were really a boy the whole time.

In my opinion, people with transsexualism are one of the most discriminated against individuals in the United States, if not the world. We're not even covered in the anti-discrimination laws (unless you live in california like I am). We can be fired, not hired, denied service and ridiculed at stores, etc just because we have transsexualism. That is why we need to be outspoken. Because no one else will for us, unlike those with other birth defects.

So please don't tell me what is and isn't transsexualism/gender identity disorder. I'm pretty dang sure I know what I am.

I never said you aren't, but I know for a fact that many who pull the gender confusion card are just men who want to wear dresses because they are in fact perverts.

Plenty of scientific evidence covers the facts around many supposed "transgendered" people being in fact socially retarded. For example, long hair, clothing, jewelry, make-up, etc etc etc are not sexual traits, they are social values.

Yet transsexuals seem to believe that in order to be female they need validation, which they think is begotten by adapting to the social image of a female, thereby having no personal identity and simply going along with their v****a envy using other women as examples.

I mean, if you look like a man, why not dress like a man, even though you're a woman on the inside? Plenty of girls with masculine features dress like men and they're OK with it.

Let me first explain that there is a difference between "trasngender" and "transsexual." Transseuxals have a birth defect and is one of many kinds of transgendered people. The others that are under the "transgender umbrella" include ->-bleeped-<-s and cross dressers, they're the ones you're thinking about.

Also, all the talk about desiring feminine things like long hair and make up, though I agree with you it is weird to hear people talk about it, is not proof that they don't have transsexualism. Of course people who wanted something all their life and just now got it are going to talk about it.
Also, a lot of that talk that is said on television is just a way to connect others to their issues. People are totally unaware of what transsexualism consists of, thus we tend to have to talk to them about it in aesthetic terms. No one is going to give us the time of day except for medical scientists, who already know anyway, if we jabbered on about sex chromosomes not fully predicting the outcome of sex, and that many many factors play a part in skewing the proper hormone and chemical releases needed to make that chromosomal make-up true. No, we have to say "I know I was always a girl because of *insert lists of commonly perceived feminine things*" and then people go "oh, I see."

But that gets into a much deeper conversation and I'd rather not explain it again.

As for masculine women dressing masculine? They can do that because they have no need to secure or prove their sex. That is fundamental and unchanging truth for cisgendered individuals. People with transsexual don't get to have that much of the time. Late transitioners are the perfect example for this. They have to do so much just to create passibility that they are female, that to start dressing masculine will only increase the odds that they will be identified as male again.

Also, it plays into personal preference. You seem to have only been exposed to the "television transsexual" where everything is unicorns, rainbows, skirts, and make up. This is not the majority. The majority is very similar to me. Just average ordinary dressing/looking men and women trying to live their lives like anyone else.

See the bold statement above. My point and protest against most transsexuals is the need for validation and security. It's as immature and as objectionable as a nudist refusing to wear clothes in public places. This is a society that has no obligation to give a damn about your special circumstances unless otherwise you are disabled, and transsexualism is a disorder and defect with no inherent disabling factors.

It disgusts me that they cry about how "unfair" it is to be a transsexual, but most of the difficulties are created by the fact that they desire more than tolerance -- they desire acceptance and equality, which is unrealistic considering you are inherently unequal due to the social defect which you embrace rather than suppress. And yes, it does need to be suppressed in public domain, because almost anything objectionable should avoid becoming a spectacle if possible. For obvious reasons not everyone is prepared to accept someone who is effectively "backwards," and there's no reason why they should be.

Again, I blame the fact that femininity is strongly associated with social status and societal acceptance, which makes transsexuals some of the most pretentious and obnoxious individuals. I've known more than five, personally, and that's a lot considering how uncommon it is. The females who are decidedly male are the most easy to get along with.

Why do we here at Susan's need to see your conversations at other sites? 


Sarah L.

Quote from: Sarah Louise on November 19, 2008, 06:11:24 PM
Why do we here at Susan's need to see your conversations at other sites? 


Sarah L.

It's not about my conversation per-se, it is about the opinions expressed by the person I am talking with, as I stated at the top of the post. He seems to have his own, strong, hard to crack opinions, and I wanted to know how others would counter those arguments.

I don't debate such people, works for me at least.

There is nothing intellectual about this person, for that reason arguing with him intellectually will get you nowhere. Even with intelligent, intellectual people, topics that are highly charged with emotion cannot be handled intellectually. The simple fact is that the most effective way to convince most people is to have them become personally connected with one of the people they are prejudiced against. Slowly they change from, "people who are X are perverted," to, "people who are X are perverted, but not you," to, "some people who are X are perverted," to, "people who are X are just ordinary people." There is no shortcut to this process.

Wow... just... wow.

I don't even know what to say. The arbitrary, disdainful, superficial, judgemental attitude displayed there is simply staggering, and coming from someone with obviously so little grasp of the condition and it's impact... frankly, it's almost laughable.

The old adage "Never wrestle a pig because you'll both just end up getting dirty... and the pig likes it" seems to fit. *sigh*

Gracie, you handled yourself admirably. Beyond admirably. Keeping a level head and not letting emotion dictate the tone of the discussion showed remarkable restraint and maturity. You should be proud of yourself, honey.

Personally, I would have either said "That's your opinion and you're entitled to it." And left it there... or something totally unrepeatable here. I haven't decided yet.

Quote from: Leiandra on November 19, 2008, 06:30:40 PM
Wow... just... wow.

I don't even know what to say. The arbitrary, disdainful, superficial, judgemental attitude displayed there is simply staggering, and coming from someone with obviously so little grasp of the condition and it's impact... frankly, it's almost laughable.

The old adage "Never wrestle a pig because you'll both just end up getting dirty... and the pig likes it" seems to fit. *sigh*

Gracie, you handled yourself admirably. Beyond admirably. Keeping a level head and not letting emotion dictate the tone of the discussion showed remarkable restraint and maturity. You should be proud of yourself, honey.

Personally, I would have either said "That's your opinion and you're entitled to it." And left it there... or something totally unrepeatable here. I haven't decided yet.

That pig quote is pretty good. I think I'l remember that.

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 19, 2008, 06:39:26 PM

Quote from: Leiandra on November 19, 2008, 06:30:40 PM
Wow... just... wow.

I don't even know what to say. The arbitrary, disdainful, superficial, judgemental attitude displayed there is simply staggering, and coming from someone with obviously so little grasp of the condition and it's impact... frankly, it's almost laughable.

The old adage "Never wrestle a pig because you'll both just end up getting dirty... and the pig likes it" seems to fit. *sigh*

Gracie, you handled yourself admirably. Beyond admirably. Keeping a level head and not letting emotion dictate the tone of the discussion showed remarkable restraint and maturity. You should be proud of yourself, honey.

Personally, I would have either said "That's your opinion and you're entitled to it." And left it there... or something totally unrepeatable here. I haven't decided yet.

That pig quote is pretty good. I think I'l remember that.

And remember this as well, Gracie. Bacon smells o-so-very-good when it's frying!! 

You done good, girl, but Sarah makes a good point about translating a conversation from one board to another. Maybe a synopsis of what was said by him, or them, would be better?

But, whichever, you done good!

Nichole

Not to piss the entire site off at me, but I can understand the slight distaste of older transsexuals.  Not because I view them as any less human, but simply because ya know, some of them aren't very good looking and some also are really immature emotionally and it's annoying to put up with.  I suppose it might be that my first support sites were based off of Gaia, just like Claire, where all the members are under 25 and are all nice to look at lol.

However, members on this site have consistently proven those beliefs I hold wrong.  From success stories like Kate to wonderful personalities like Nichole, to passion like Nero, to strong minds like Tekla and Keira, I've learned that every group of people can come in all shapes and sizes.

I think that before passing judgment, that dude needs to educate himself on exactly who and what he's judging.

A pretty smart person once told me that you can't use reason to talk someone out of some belief they got to without using reason in the first place.  By the same token, you can't use intellectual arguments on people who didn't get to where they were by using their intellect.

As I tell people at work when they try to makes sense of our screwed-up corporate logic,

"Don't try to understand it - you will just hurt yourself."

We must work in the same place, I tell people all the time "If it makes sense, then that's NOT going to be the way we are going to do it."

The way he keeps reffering everyhting to a sociological point of view leads me to wonder if hes a sociology teacher *shudder*.
People of that mind set often tend to believe that everything is a product of society and biology dosen't count for ->-bleeped-<-. Useually seems to me most psychology teachers are more reasonable and hold a more balanced viewpoint of a combination of nature and nuture. Sounds like this individual is basing to much of his theories off of personal experiences or only partial baised research instead of taking time to review the bigger picture.

Quote from: Fox on November 19, 2008, 09:00:59 PM
The way he keeps reffering everyhting to a sociological point of view leads me to wonder if hes a sociology teacher *shudder*.
People of that mind set often tend to believe that everything is a product of society and biology dosen't count for ->-bleeped-<-. Useually seems to me most psychology teachers are more reasonable and hold a more balanced viewpoint of a combination of nature and nuture. Sounds like this individual is basing to much of his theories off of personal experiences or only partial baised research instead of taking time to review the bigger picture.

To me it sounds like he just saw a handful of documentaries and knows how to type well. Everything he said could be easily made out of what is said in all the annoyingly bad attempts at accurately portraying people with transsexualism in documentaries. Most of which always containing twinkly music, soft focus lenses with shots of the MtF applying make up and shopping for clothes, that same person later explaining how they always wanted to play with dolls when they were little. That could be easily skewed into the opinions he held.

Ditto! There's the: 1) Corporate way, 2) the correct way and 3) My Way (which, knowing the difference, usually wins out) . . .


Where I am it's "the right way, the wrong way and the union way."  At least the Union writes it down.  Back in the day it was the right way, wrong way and Dead way.  Which was often no way at all, but in fairness, they were kind of making it up as they went along.

Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:09:42 AM

(gotta play with it, actually works!)

I LOLed so hard spaghetti sauce just came out my nose.

Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:14:00 AM
o->-bleeped-<-gropegrabohbbybbyG

lol Such A Mind!

Want to know the full version?

o->-bleeped-<-gropgrabohbbybbyGRABTHEBBQSAUCEbouncysquirtsquirt

wait wut?

you want me to come see you?  do i bring bbq sauce?

What the heck have you and tekla been talking about!? I'm totally lost.

Quote from: Kiera on November 20, 2008, 12:36:22 AM

Quote from: Gracie FAISE on November 20, 2008, 12:32:56 AM
What the heck have you and tekla been talking about!? I'm totally lost.

Sorry Gracie for messing up thread with Annwyn. We digressed, posts gone . . .

So if I went to Rio whatever I'd probably get picked up by some DRUNK guy who'd get mad at my EXTRA PART and I'd be the victim of a HATE CRIME.

And I can place certain EMPHASIS on words by CAPITALIZING them like THIS.

Mwahahahhahaha.